Why Mother Angelica's Scaring Me Away:

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Yes, I can ration with devotion to Mary, and honor to her, but if you give to Mary your life, your soul, your heart, your family and your country, then what is left for God? All those are God’s, anyway. Those don’t rightfully belong to any creature, that’s why God alone is worthy of worship…
You can give your life for the sake of your children and your husband or wife, that does not mean God is cast out of your life does it? You honour Him more fully by serving your husband/wife and children. The same goes for Mary, all children should honour their mother and there is no greater than the Theotokos. It was God Who honoured her first by creating her out of nothing, perserving her from all stain of original sin and actual iniquity, for the sake of being the Mother of His Son.

It is not a matter of ‘either/or’. Why go to work when you could spend all your time in a church? Because you have earthly obligations and duties, it does not follow that such time is wasted.
 
Also, I wish someone could provide a good source for the tradition that says those brothers were Joseph’s children, completely aside from his MARRIAGE to Mary! I have to admit, it’s rather sketchy to say St. Joseph married ANOTHER woman after his wife died!! If I would be devestated if my girl did that to ME! T_T Also, it seems very subjecting to mary your daughter to a widower and give her no good wife/husband relationship for the rest of her life!
The Protoevangelium of James explains the tradition: catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

I first read about this when trying to find out why St. Joseph’s staff always has flowers on it. This story has a dove, though. 😃

And about the brothers: Most people have enough problems with their non-divine siblings, so can you imagine the horrible jealousy that would go along with having the perfect brother? I can’t imagine Jesus would want anyone hurt like that.
 
You can give your life for the sake of your children and your husband or wife, that does not mean God is cast out of your life does it? You honour Him more fully by serving your husband/wife and children. The same goes for Mary, all children should honour their mother and there is no greater than the Theotokos. It was God Who honoured her first by creating her out of nothing, perserving her from all stain of original sin and actual iniquity, for the sake of being the Mother of His Son.

It is not a matter of ‘either/or’. Why go to work when you could spend all your time in a church? Because you have earthly obligations and duties, it does not follow that such time is wasted.
Please tell me you are kidding…
 
I grew up Catholic and was not exposed to any Marian devotion until I was an adult. I witnessed the rosary for the first time when I was 26 and prayed it for the first time when I was 29. I already loved Jesus and God the Father (although that is hardest for me) and God the Holy Spirit (I’m a leetle bit charismatic). But praying the Rosary in addition to my already established habit of praying and studying the Scriptures added so much depth and tenderness and life to my devotion to the Trinity. It converted the last corners of holdout within me (like quite suddenly switching from pro-choice to pro-life and 100 percent agreement with Humana Vitae and a spiritual perception of the power of the prophecy contained in it). I am an educated, intelligent, assertive, mildly feminist woman who works in higher education–pro-choice/artificial contraception is the air we breathe in that environment. I cannot emphasize how much I am still shocked about that change of heart and mind, lo these many years later. Who Mary is is a gift of God and what she does is always for Him–she is not stealing followers from Jesus or God the Father or the Holy Spirit–au contraire, she brings us deeper into relationship and love with them! Love is not a stingy, finite quantity and zero-sum resource, as many non-Catholic Christians construe it. More love makes your heart bigger and it is therefore training for Heaven.

The love of your mother will help you break the prison of your intellectualizing mind and go into your heart more tenderly and fully, in your love for God.

Praying with, getting to know, and learning to love Mary has made me a more compassionate and loving person. God is love–so He is using her as an instrument for His purposes, a mother and teacher in His school of love.

As I await further cancer testing, and lay down in my bed at night, I know I rest secure under God’s wing and Mary’s mantle. Their tender love for me eases my troubled mind and I know everything will be fine, no matter what the results.

Let me quote Beatlogians 3:15: when I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom: “Let it be.” There will be an answer–let it be. 👍👍👍
 
Hello, lately I’ve been seriously contemplating “swimming the Tiber.” I usually never had a problem with the Mary devotion, and would laugh at protestant accusations that Catholics worship her. However, I was watching EWTN and was a very bothered by a prayer of Mother Angelica’s to the Virgin Mary. I love Mother Angelica, she’s a very down to earth spiritual teacher, and I could be wrong, but I’m fairly certain this is worship:

"O Mary, Virgin Most Powerful
and Mother of Mercy, Queen of Heaven
and Refuge of Sinners, I consecrate
myself to Your Immaculate Heart.

To you I give my body, my heart,
and my soul; to you I give my home,
My family, my country.
Aren’t those all things we should give TO JESUS??
I desire that everything in me,
everything around me,
belong to you.
Shouldn’t this all belong to JESUS??
To make this act of concecration
purposeful and lasting, I renew this
day the promises of my Baptism.

Finally, O Glorious Mother of God
and loving Mother of us all, I promise to
inspire in others in devotion to you,
so as to hasten through your Queenship
of your Immaculate Heart, the coming of
the Kindom of the Sacred Heart in my heart
and in the hearts of all. Amen."
-Mother Angelica
Yeah it sounds a littile overboard to me. I mean I am comfortable praying the Hail Mary, but I would be a little uncomfortable for me to pray the prayer you quoted from Mother Angelica.

I probably just do not understand it, because Catholics do not worship Mary.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.
 
I’ve made a Marian consecration (according to St. Maximilian Kolbe–Militia Immaculata) and renewed it this New Year’s Eve. The prayer posted here isn’t explicit but we know that Mary keeps nothing for herself but polishes up whatever we offer and brings it to the King. It all ends up God’s.

Anyone who thinks it stops at Mary is in heresy, Collyridianism if I recall correctly.

The most earnest lovers of Mary would be the first to condemn such a heresy.
 
Well much of the first part of the prayer I’m ok with. “Queen of heaven” “Mother of God” “Mother of us all” maybe even devotion to further that Spiritual relationship.

However, red flags go up when I hear:

"Refuge of Sinners, (Which is Jesus, even to run to for comfort)
I consecrate
myself to Your Immaculate Heart.

To you I give my body, (Which should be given to God)
my heart, (Also to God)
and my soul; (GOD…) to you I give my home, (GOD!)
My family, (I Baptise FOR God) my country. (God’s.)

I desire that everything in me,
everything around me,
belong to you."

Shouldn’t we be talking about God here?

Also, I wish someone could provide a good source for the tradition that says those brothers were Joseph’s children, completely aside from his MARRIAGE to Mary! I have to admit, it’s rather sketchy to say St. Joseph married ANOTHER woman after his wife died!! If I would be devestated if my girl did that to ME! T_T Also, it seems very subjecting to mary your daughter to a widower and give her no good wife/husband relationship for the rest of her life!

Does anyone see my dilemma?
We catholic, we understand “worship” differently. First of all, what is worship?
Secondly, what are the differences between these terms: worship, venerate, adore, love?
We catholic we simply consider worship as “love most”. Since our love towards Jesus and Mary should be infinite, love most or love less is not very important. The problem arises when Jesus and Mary disagree with each other, then we have to choose. But it can never be the case.
So we love Jesus as much as we love his mother since our love should be infinite. That’s why we are accused of worshiping Mary. We simply love them both infinitely.

Just my opinion.
 
Remember that one of the councils (Nicea II ?.. 8th c.) clarified that Mary is worthy not only of dulia but hyperdulia, so a veneration above that which is given to the other saints. Obviously that is just a clarification, since what less could be worthy of the the very Theotokos?

Please see also these references:

BVM was a virgin after Christ’s birth
St. Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary, esp. Ch. 21 (A.D. 383)
St. Augustine of Hippo, Sermons 186/1:1; On Holy Virginity 4:4 (early 5th c.)
St. Peter Chrysologos, Sermons 117 (mid 5th c.)
Pope St. Leo I, Sermons 22:2 (mid 5th c.)
St. John Damascene, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 4:14 (late 7th c.)

BVM was conceived immaculate
St. Ephraem Syrus, Nisibene Hymns 27 (early-mid 4th c.)
St. Augustine of Hippo, On Nature and Grace 36:42

Also, say the Hail Mary 100 or 150 times. You will come to realize that God is mentioned three times in this prayer, and you will begin to appreciate that it is a Trinitarian prayer.

Also, reflect on the 5th Glorious Mystery of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Why is it a mystery of the rosary? Why is it the last one? Keep in mind what was the first mystery of the whole rosary, the 1st Joyful Mystery, and that will help you understand what the rosary is about.

Simply, the Blessed Virgin is the model of submission to the Triune God. We dedicate ourselves to her so that we can better dedicate ourselves to God. Just because you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (the best possible thing anyone can have!) does not mean that a relationship with the Virgin Mary is superfluous. That kind of thinking is very problematic - it leads people to reject the Church, the Sacraments, and all the things that God has given us and keeps giving us. Such thinking rejects icons and could even lead to the rejection of miracles!

Jesus Christ is LORD and King. If a man is His servant, can he possibly despise the tenderness and counsel of his Master’s mother? Can he ignore her - would that be service to his Master?

That Lord Jesus possesses great tenderness and mercy is no reason to ignore the tenderness and mercy of His mother, the Blessed Virgin, any more than it is reason to ignore the tenderness and mercy of your own mother or grandma or whomever.
 
Sometimes our Protestant experience rubs off on us and stays with us. Personally I pray the Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen and love Mary. I feel she is immaculate and assumed as the Church says. But as far as “intercession,” I go straight to the Saviour of the World, Christ Jesus. He is our High Priest par excellance, our ultimate Intercessor with a capital “i” and according to Scripture He takes our needs, desires, prayers, and hopes to the Father for us. I don’t need another intercessor. I don’t begrudge or judge others that feel the more the merrier with intercession but I see Christ as sufficient as my one intercessor to the Father. And I am sticking to it. 🙂 I look at the saints as wonderful examples of the transformed life. Each one of my own children has an icon of their saint by their bed from whom they are named: Luke, Veronica, John. And we ask that saint in our prayers sometimes to pray with us for ____________ but generally we use the saint as a great example more than anything and a shining role model of Christian living.

Don’t let Mother Angelica scare you away. She has a heart that is on fire for Christ and she’s quite a character. And I see some verbage in Marian devotions sometimes go way overboard for my taste. I just filter it and realize that these are fallible folks cooking up many of these prayers, not infallibly-stated dogma I must embrace. That’s where I am at this point.
 
Well much of the first part of the prayer I’m ok with. “Queen of heaven” “Mother of God” “Mother of us all” maybe even devotion to further that Spiritual relationship.

However, red flags go up when I hear:

"Refuge of Sinners, (Which is Jesus, even to run to for comfort)
I consecrate
myself to Your Immaculate Heart.

To you I give my body, (Which should be given to God)
my heart, (Also to God)
and my soul; (GOD…) to you I give my home, (GOD!)
My family, (I Baptise FOR God) my country. (God’s.)

I desire that everything in me,
everything around me,
belong to you."

Shouldn’t we be talking about God here?
Just a few thoughts for you to consider.

If a sinner runs to Mary, she will provide him comfort (refuge) and lead him to her Son.

If one gives their body, heart, soul, etc. to Mary, she isn’t going to keep it for herself. Who better to present everything you have and love to Jesus than the Mother of our Lord?

No matter how much honor, devotion and hyperbolic language one uses (provided one does not cross into worship), it is a drop in the ocean compared to how much Jesus loves her. Our love for Mary is finite. His is infinite.

While the language may not be to everyone’s taste, there is nothing in there that is theologically problematic or takes anything away from Jesus. This prayer along with every (approved) Marian devotional is ultimately all for Jesus. Mary gives it all and leads us to Jesus.

May the peace of Christ be with you.
 
Well, I think I’m just about thru with this thread. 🙂 I was particularly touched by the post by kentuckyliz, thank you sister. Amen. And the other posts were very good indeed, for and against this prayer, and in helping me get recources for the traditional view if Jesus’ “brothers.” Thank you all. I just watched The Passion, and at seeing Mother Mary’s character, can see how the adoration of Christ can be strengthened through her eyes. However, this does not completely answer my dilemma. Watching EWTN, it sounds sometimes like they got Mary on the brain more than Jesus. Someone here even said they love her** the same amount **as Jesus!! I would be happy to see our Lady, but I’m sure I would tremble at the sight and prescence of Jesus. There’s no way I could love her as much. Just as I could never love my mother as much as my sweetheart soon to be… I’ve investgated many nooks and crannies that surround Catholicism, and frankly, they’re on a good foundation. Maybe my love for Mother isn’t as strong, since I am in a divorced church. Who knows. Mother Angelica has reached me with the Holy Spirit to the point of crying for hours in repenting of my sins, and loving and desiring to follow Jesus… But I definently wont be praying that prayer any time soon. 🙂
 
Yes, I can ration with devotion to Mary, and honor to her, but if you give to Mary your life, your soul, your heart, your family and your country, then what is left for God? All those are God’s, anyway. Those don’t rightfully belong to any creature, that’s why God alone is worthy of worship…
As a convert from non-practicing Judaism, I had to figure out a lot of this stuff myself, too. I could accept Mary easily, as the Protestant lack of respect for the mother of the most important person in one’s life was shocking to a Jew. Culturally, mothers are held in exceptionally high esteem. It would be unthought of to walk into your beloved or even a friend’s home and not make respectful chit-chat with their Mom FIRST. So the basic love of Mary by Catholics was much more comfortable to me than Protestantism.

But the amount of devotion, and the flowery language, was a bit hard to understand. After reading and reading, I figured the only way to figure it out was to try it on for size. So I started praying the rosary, and meditating on Mary, and always stopped at any statues of Mary in churches or shrines and prayed a while.

And this is what I found - the more I prayed to Mary, the more I tried to get close to her, and get to know her, and develop a relationship, the stronger my pull was towards her son, Jesus. She acts like a funnel taking all of my loose thoughts and distracted prayers and pulled them together, clarified them and pushed me right into the heart of our Lord.

Another thing is that as a Catholic, I don’t believe in “once saved always saved.” I am very aware of my sinfulness. And as a sinner, there is always a good deal of shame to stand before God, as He is so perfect, pure and good.

Sometimes it is easier to run to Mama, who is and was always a human woman, not God. Moms know all about children and their sinful nature. She gently encourages me and gives courage and a little push toward her son. And maybe, just maybe she’ll put in a good word for me? Jesus always did end up giving into his mother, just like the good Jewish boy he was/is. Perhaps that is a little silly of me, but a simple, childlike faith is not such a bad thing, either.

So whenever you find a certain prayer or a certain private devotion to be just too hard to figure out, it doesn’t hurt to just try it. You simply tell God that you don’t mean to offend, but that you love His church, and this is an accepted devotion or prayer, that you’d like to give it a try. Tell him you mean no disrespect by any of the language, and you understand that many exceptionally good and holy people have prayed this prayer or did this devotion.

I find you need to repeat the rosary many times to feel its effect, and the same for other prayers.

Lastly, I think we Catholics can give our hearts and souls and lives to Mary so willingly because we know it is only for her to brush off a bit of lint, shine it up and present the best side of it forward as she hands it to her Son. She gives everything she is given to her Son. Everything and everyone.

And handing it to Mary to give to her son is a sign of humility - that we don’t think we are so great and important that we can ONLY talk to the BIG GUY ourselves, we don’t want to waste our time on the little peons around Him. Its like, “I’m not worthy, to bother He who is so awesome with this, so please give Him this for me, Mary.”
 
Firstly - I know the words might sound over the top - but so do the things many of us say about people whom we love dearly.

Have you never heard a wife say of her husband ‘he is my heart and soul’, or a father of his children that ‘they’re my whole world’, for example? Surely to someone who believes in God neither of these sentiments are strictly true.

Have you never heard the beautiful old version of the wedding vows where the spouses in fact say ‘with my body I THEE WORSHIP, with ALL my worldly goods I thee endow’? At first blush these also sound like sentiments one should strictly only express to God rather than one’s spouse.

The explanation is very simple - it’s a rhetorical device called hyperbole - exaggeration to make a point. Look it up some time.

Our Lord Himself used it. 'If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off … ‘If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out’. How many of us take Our Lord literally at His word and do so? Don’t we realise instead that He is indulging in hyperbole - exaggeration to make the point that avoiding sin is more important than even our physical bodily comfort?

Secondly, a better explanation is required of what it means when the Catholic prayer you quote discusses ‘giving’ something or other to Mary. To do so by no means implies giving it to her to the exclusion of giving it to Christ. In fact such is impossible - EVERYTHING we give to her is in reality given to Christ through her. She is, in a very important sense, a conduit between us and Him, in the same manner as she was the conduit He chose through which to come to us, into our world. It’s entirely fitting that her function goes both ways rather than just one, no?
 
Yes, I can ration with devotion to Mary, and honor to her, but if you give to Mary your life, your soul, your heart, your family and your country, then what is left for God? All those are God’s, anyway. Those don’t rightfully belong to any creature, that’s why God alone is worthy of worship…
These things must be read with a Catholic mind. Nothing can happen without God.
 
There are currently living, what, 1.1 billion Catholics? How many who have lived who were Catholics I just don’t know, but it stands to reason that someone, somewhere in time, is going to write a prayer to Mary that boarders on the uncomfortable spiritually.

I just turn to teh Church’s teaching on the matter, because that’s all that should concern us with regard to honouring Mary, what the Church teaches. Anyone can write a prayer “worshipping” Mary, but the final buck stops with the Church.

As for my relationship with Mary, I go to her when when I really want something and make the point that Christ listened to her before it was His time. 😃 But I love her and respect her as our spiritual mother and the mother of our Saviour.
 
I also have doubts about the Catholic Mary:

•Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”
•Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
•Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
•Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
•John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
•Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
•1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
•Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother.”

Help?
I’ve seen many posts saying that Catholics “understand” that brothers means cousins. I would like to clarify this. The church does not make up understanding. The problem is that English, particularly American English, does not have equivalent nouns as Latin, Greek, or for that matter Aramaic. I think the confusion often lies with a poor translation. Remember, the gospels were written in Greek, some for a reading audience that was Jews in Exile after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and at least one of the gospels was written for Gentiles in a Roman culture of paganism. Even today in many protestant churches, the pastor will call every member of the church “brother”. So it is not merely that Catholics understand the word brother in the gospels to mean cousin. It is a language and cultural difference. The word brother is quite often used in a way that does not been biologically born of the same mother and father.
 
Hello
Code:
 My feeling is only keep the devotions that you are comfortable with in regards to Mary. If you are fine with the Rosary and so forth that's wonderful! I myself probably wouldn't pray the prayer either and that's ok. I like Mother Angelica as well and I think she took good care in selecting prayers for her show (which is reruns as now she is very old and debilitated by strokes) and would never purposely provide us with a false teaching. But if you feel that it crosses some line than just don't pray THAT particular prayer and remember that Mary herself understood her role in history and knows what she is and what she is not! She leads all of us to her son and that is what matters. As far as the "brothers" thing- to this day men in the middle east even unrelated men call each other "brother". It is a sign of respect and affection. I don't ever get too hung up on it since English is limited in a lot of ways. I believe that they were probably the older children of Joseph who was thought to be older and widowed.
Take Care Mary
 
Ah, Mariology…

I think Gurney’s point about Protestantism following converts into the Catholic Church is a good one, though I personally never experienced it. My uncomfortable moments with RC Mariology were always in the Latino congregations (sorry to sound racist, it’s just how it was in my case), but even there it’s a minority who go really overboard with this stuff. They just get a lot of press because it looks “weird”, even to a lot of Catholics.

Anyway, I just want to make the point that there is intensely devoted Mariology that doesn’t include the extremely questionable blurring of lines you might see in some RC prayers. For instance, in the Coptic Orthodox intercessory hymn “Hiten Ni”, the opening of the prayer is:
*
Through the intercession of the Mother of God, the Holy Mary
O Lord, grant us the intermission of our trespasses*

I find this quite interesting because it seems “backwards” from how most Roman Catholic Marian prayers are (or at least the ones I was taught); it says GOD, through the intercession of Your mother Mary, forgive us our sins, rather than MARY, through your intercession before God, etc. I don’t think either are wrong, necessarily, but the explicit focus is different.

Not that the Copts don’t have their own hymns that may or may not make some people uncomfortable, like this one right here, but I don’t know…I don’t see any problem with them, just like many Catholics don’t have problems with the prayer posted in the OP. As long as our personal feelings don’t touch the dogma or doctrine, it’s fine. One thing I did always like about the RC is that particular devotions aren’t dogmatic, so I was never chastised for not adhering to a particular form of Marian devotion. I kept it to the rosary and left the immaculate heart/consecration stuff to others…
 
Hello, lately I’ve been seriously contemplating “swimming the Tiber.” I usually never had a problem with the Mary devotion, and would laugh at protestant accusations that Catholics worship her. However, I was watching EWTN and was a very bothered by a prayer of Mother Angelica’s to the Virgin Mary. I love Mother Angelica, she’s a very down to earth spiritual teacher, and I could be wrong, but I’m fairly certain this is worship:

"O Mary, Virgin Most Powerful
and Mother of Mercy, Queen of Heaven
and Refuge of Sinners, I consecrate
myself to Your Immaculate Heart.

To you I give my body, my heart,
and my soul; to you I give my home,
My family, my country.
Aren’t those all things we should give TO JESUS??
I desire that everything in me,
everything around me,
belong to you.
Shouldn’t this all belong to JESUS??
To make this act of concecration
purposeful and lasting, I renew this
day the promises of my Baptism.

(…)

Help?
Christians are to imitate Christ so imitate Christ by going to his Mother. Give her your heart the way Jesus did. Run to her when you are hurt the way Jesus did. The Mother of God will point to her son and say, “Do whatever he tells you”. (John 2:5)
 
When I was Protestant, I was also a little disturbed by what I perceived as an “exaltation” of Mary by the Catholic Church. In my Protestant tradition, NOTHING should compete with Jesus Christ for attention.

Not to worry! The Catholic Church feels the same way. NOTHING competes with the glory of the Holy Trinity. If you know the liturgy of the Holy Mass, you know that this is the case. Our worship is “through Him, with Him, In Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, ALL GLORY AND HONOR is YOURS almighty Father, forever and ever…”

Many of the worries I had about “Mary worship” turned out to be non-consequentional once I began to enter into the WHOLENESS of the Catholic teaching concerning our salvation.

Mary has one mission, one vocation: To bring Christ into the world and to bring us into the life of the Trinity. Every devotion of the Catholic Church with regard to Mary has this same end: To birth Christ in us. If you keep this in mind, many of the words that you find so troublesome will become more clear.

You have nothing to fear from Mary–she is a Jewish Mother…and every Jewish Mother desires that her son be honored above herself…😉
 
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