J
JHow
Guest
Good point. I address my Polish in-laws as “Mom” and “Dad” (Mamusia, Tatus’), but you wouldn’t conclude I married my sister from that.
- Status
J
James224
Guest
The Mother Angelica Prayer is based on the Doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of Grace and Co-Redemptrix. What’s different from Mary as opposed to prayer to other saints is that we ask the other saints to pray (mediate) for us and the saints go to God and God answers our prayers. With Mary, we can ask her to pray for us but Mary can mediate graces to us herself because graces flow through her to us. These graces come from God through her so, in this way, she can answer our prayers. St. Irenaeus describes Mary as the New Eve in his book “Against Heresies”, Book III, Ch XXII, Para IV, 180ad. The ECF said that just as Eve, the first mother of the living (Gen 3:20), was instrumental with Adam, the father of the human race, in the loss of grace for all humanity, so too Mary, the “New Eve”, was directly instrumental with Jesus Christ, whom St. Paul calls the “New Adam” (1 Cor 15:45-48), in the restoration of grace to all humanity. I could go on but not understanding this is why people have trouble with the writings of Liguori.
The verses you quoted seem to point to the fact that you don’t accept the Perpetual Vifginity of Mary. One of the titles we give Mary is “The Ark of the New Covenant” because she housed Jesus in her womb. If you think about this title, you would have to come to the conclusion that Mary was perpetually a virgin. Prophetically, Is 7:14 says, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.” Notice: It says a virgin shall conceive - then it says - and bear a son… This means she was a vigin in her conception and a virgin in giving birth.
This is all just an introduction but I don’t have the time to put it all out there right now.
J
James224
Guest
Here’s a follow up to my previous post.
To see that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin and her being the Ark of the New Covenant look at this language:
Luke 1:41 then compare to 2 Sam 6:16
Luke 1:43 then compare to 2 Sam 6:9
Luke 1:56 then compare to 2 Sam 6:11
Also look at Luke 1:35 then compare to Ex 40:32
Remember: The Ark in the Old covenant could not be touched by sinful man. This means that after Mary gave birth to Jesus, it would be unheard of to think any man would have sexual relations with Mary. Mary conception of Jesus came, not by sinful man, but by the Holy Ghost. (Luke 1:35)
To see that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin and her being the Ark of the New Covenant look at this language:
Luke 1:41 then compare to 2 Sam 6:16
Luke 1:43 then compare to 2 Sam 6:9
Luke 1:56 then compare to 2 Sam 6:11
Also look at Luke 1:35 then compare to Ex 40:32
Remember: The Ark in the Old covenant could not be touched by sinful man. This means that after Mary gave birth to Jesus, it would be unheard of to think any man would have sexual relations with Mary. Mary conception of Jesus came, not by sinful man, but by the Holy Ghost. (Luke 1:35)
T
thomas_jd
Guest
This consecration prayer is “To Jesus thru Mary”… “through your Queenship of your Immaculate Heart , the coming of the Kingdom of the Sacred Heart in my heart and in the hearts of all.”
The Sacred Heart is Jesus! We are asking Mary to bring us, and all of us, to her son.
I see that the question of brothers has been answered.
R
roveau
Guest
MrZetterlund, the prayer you are referring to does not have the status of dogma in the Catholic Church. I personally feel the prayer goes too far but many Catholics favour it and that’s good for them.
We are not required to go through the Blessed Virgin to pray to Christ, as we are to go through Christ to get to the Father. It is not a requirement for Catholics and don’t feel pressured by people who argue the contrary.
I honour Our Lady every day in prayers and the Rosary but… and that’s the way I am, I feel I can only dedicate my soul to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do ask Our Heavenly Mother for her prayers to help me get closer to her Son but I can’t believe that she would want me to dedicate my life, heart and soul to her in such a way.
There are many devotions in the Catholic Church and the reason for that is (if we need a reason) is because there are many people and personalities with different levels of understanding within the Church. Choose what sits well with your concience and God will lead you if you ask Him.
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panevino
Guest
P
panevino
Guest
just a note… She did go to Him on behalf of others…
John2
DR)3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not
5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
…7 Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
B
bettyg51
Guest
C
Crumpy
Guest
I have gone past the tipping point and I cannot usually say a prayer to Mary. Maybe my praying to Mary is just at the level of superstition.
Why don’t we pray to Moses? Moses isn’t even mentioned in the Mass, although other OT people are. Moses speaks more (in terms of number of words) than Jesus does. The book of Deuteronomy is all the “devarim” words of Moses.
I’m just tired enough to say that the Catholic Church is kind of nutty about this stuff.
Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of Transfiguration with Jesus – and they’re not saints? We can’t pray to them?
Perhaps, there’s no miracles attributed to them? They didn’t live lives of heroic virtue?
It’s nutty,to me, buddy.
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
The Church recognizes the saints of the Old Testament.
The Carmelite Order considers Elijah to be its founder and they have a strong Elijahan spirituality.
I grew up Catholic and never prayed to Mary and was never taught to. No one will make you pray to Mary. Chill.
The Carmelite Order considers Elijah to be its founder and they have a strong Elijahan spirituality.
I grew up Catholic and never prayed to Mary and was never taught to. No one will make you pray to Mary. Chill.
L
lisaberry100
Guest
Hi! I am so glad you are honestly seeking answers to these difficult questions. We came into the Catholic Church from Baptist Church. Mary was our last huge stumbling block. We finally came to the realization that the Church teaches we are not to worship the Saints, but to give them highest honor. If people in the church appear to be worshiping the Saints, then, that is wrong. I know Mother Angelica’s prayer is simply a prayer of highest devotion. The Catholic’s way of expressing themselves is so different from protestants. They have a very deep, powerful, mystical way of expressing their love for the Saints. It can tend to sound like worship, but anyone who truly knows their faith would know it is a sin of the worst, most aggregious, kind to worship anyone but the One True God. Please don’t be scared off. My family is very careful to always ask the Saints only to pray for us, as that is what the Church teaches they are in heaven doing. In the book of revelation, it depicts the Saints in heaven carrying our prayers to God. Please don’t give up. The Catholic Church is so deep, so rich, every verse in Holy Scriptures has meaning and purpose. We don’t have to skip over verses. We can read them all and see Catholic teaching in each and every verse. For example. Jesus tells the disciples to leave everything and follow him. as a protestant, no one can ever truly do this because they will always have family, whether their parents or spouse or kids. only in the Catholic Church can this teaching be followed. Priests are ordained everyday who follow this command. Hard teaching like this just make sense when you look at them through Catholic teaching. I always just thought, well, no one can really give up everything. But they can. Jesus is talking to the disciples, who will be His priests. Just food for thought to give you an example of how beautiful the Church is in following and carrying out Holy Scripture. God bless you-Lisa
I
inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by coco2
The Catholic interpretation of “brother” in the Bible is that it really means cousin or some other close relative. I wonder about this, as well.
I do think that sometimes people do walk a fine line between honoring as opposed to worshipping Mary. Would she want this? Doesn’t she want to lead us to Jesus?
In Galatians 1:19 Paul writes that while he was in Jerusalem visiting with Peter:
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” [Ga 1:19]
The word translated as brother is the Greek adelphos but there is something else there. The verse states the James that Paul saw was an Apostle. Now there were only two apostles named James. Were either of them the son of Joseph and Mary? Let’s see shall we. In Mt 10:2-3 Matthew tells us about the Apostles. What does he say of the two James? In Mt 10 :2 we learn about one of them:
“The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother;” [Mt 10:2]
Obviously this is not the sibling of Jesus because his father is Zebedee. In fact this is one of the two brothers that Jesus called the “sons of thunder”. So it must be the other Apostle James who is Jesus’ sibling brother, right? Let’s see. Mt 10:3 tells us:
"3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. " [Mt 10:3]
OOPS!!! This James is the son of some guy named Alphaeus. Who was Mary married to, Alphaeus or Joseph??? Obviously Paul is using the word adelphos to denote a relationship other than a son of the same parent. But the verses you quoted come from the gospel of Matthew. So does Matthew use adelphos only to denote a sibling relationship? Let’s see. In Matthew 23:8 Jesus says to the Apostles:
“But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.”
There the word brethren is the Greek adelphos but obviously all the Apostles did not come from the same family so how could they be sibling brothers? They can’t. Again in Mt 28:10 Jesus calls all of the Apostles his brothers:
"Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.” [Mt 28:10]
Again the word brethern is the translation of the Greek adelphos but were all the Apostles Jesus’ siblings? Of course not. We see the same use of the Greek adelphos in Luke 22:32 as well as John 20:17 and John 21:23. So obviously adelphos was not restricted to mean a sibling brother and to do so is terrible exogesis.
But let’s not stop there because there is more evidence to consider. First, name one person, other than Jesus, that scripture calls a child of Mary. Can you? No, because only Jesus is called Mary’s child. Second, on the cross Jesus entrusts Mary to the care of the youngest Apostle, John. Why entrust His mother to someone outside the family if he had all these other siblings? Third, care of the parents was the obligation of the youngest child. Why is Jesus doing this if He is Mary’s first born and thus the oldest of this alleged family of siblings? It does not make sense except if Jesus is both the oldest as well as the youngest which He would be if He was an only child. And notice He entrust Mary to the youngest of his “brethren” as He called his Apostles in Mt 28:10.
And I’ll end with this last point to ponder. The early church was quite boastful of their pedigree. We see evidence of this in the scriptures in the epistle of Jude who claims to be the brother of James [Jude 1:1]. Later, cities and towns would boast that they have the body of this Apostle or that Apostle and later still the boast would be the bodies of the saints. We do something similar by claiming “We are No.1” when our favorite sports team wins a championship. But there are three boasts that are never found at anytime in the early church or even down to the present day. They are:
Originally Posted by coco2
The Catholic interpretation of “brother” in the Bible is that it really means cousin or some other close relative. I wonder about this, as well.
I do think that sometimes people do walk a fine line between honoring as opposed to worshipping Mary. Would she want this? Doesn’t she want to lead us to Jesus?
WOW!!! I don’t know how many times I have had to answer this one. So many that I copied the response into my computer. Okay here it goes. This idea that Mary had other children or that Jesus had sibling brothers is based on a strict interpretation of the Greek word adelphos as meaning a sibling born of the same parents or just one parent. Now the word is used in this way as in Mat 4:18, 4:21, 10:2, and 10:21 but no one denies that adelphos can mean a sibling brother of the same parents. The question is in scripture does adelphos ALWAYS mean a son of the same parent? Because if it does not then we cannot force the strict meaning of sibling onto it every time. The answer to the question is that, in scripture, adelphos is used to denote other relationships other than a son of the same parent. Let’s take a look.
In Galatians 1:19 Paul writes that while he was in Jerusalem visiting with Peter:
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” [Ga 1:19]
The word translated as brother is the Greek adelphos but there is something else there. The verse states the James that Paul saw was an Apostle. Now there were only two apostles named James. Were either of them the son of Joseph and Mary? Let’s see shall we. In Mt 10:2-3 Matthew tells us about the Apostles. What does he say of the two James? In Mt 10 :2 we learn about one of them:
“The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother;” [Mt 10:2]
Obviously this is not the sibling of Jesus because his father is Zebedee. In fact this is one of the two brothers that Jesus called the “sons of thunder”. So it must be the other Apostle James who is Jesus’ sibling brother, right? Let’s see. Mt 10:3 tells us:
"3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. " [Mt 10:3]
OOPS!!! This James is the son of some guy named Alphaeus. Who was Mary married to, Alphaeus or Joseph??? Obviously Paul is using the word adelphos to denote a relationship other than a son of the same parent. But the verses you quoted come from the gospel of Matthew. So does Matthew use adelphos only to denote a sibling relationship? Let’s see. In Matthew 23:8 Jesus says to the Apostles:
“But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.”
There the word brethren is the Greek adelphos but obviously all the Apostles did not come from the same family so how could they be sibling brothers? They can’t. Again in Mt 28:10 Jesus calls all of the Apostles his brothers:
"Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.” [Mt 28:10]
Again the word brethern is the translation of the Greek adelphos but were all the Apostles Jesus’ siblings? Of course not. We see the same use of the Greek adelphos in Luke 22:32 as well as John 20:17 and John 21:23. So obviously adelphos was not restricted to mean a sibling brother and to do so is terrible exogesis.
But let’s not stop there because there is more evidence to consider. First, name one person, other than Jesus, that scripture calls a child of Mary. Can you? No, because only Jesus is called Mary’s child. Second, on the cross Jesus entrusts Mary to the care of the youngest Apostle, John. Why entrust His mother to someone outside the family if he had all these other siblings? Third, care of the parents was the obligation of the youngest child. Why is Jesus doing this if He is Mary’s first born and thus the oldest of this alleged family of siblings? It does not make sense except if Jesus is both the oldest as well as the youngest which He would be if He was an only child. And notice He entrust Mary to the youngest of his “brethren” as He called his Apostles in Mt 28:10.
And I’ll end with this last point to ponder. The early church was quite boastful of their pedigree. We see evidence of this in the scriptures in the epistle of Jude who claims to be the brother of James [Jude 1:1]. Later, cities and towns would boast that they have the body of this Apostle or that Apostle and later still the boast would be the bodies of the saints. We do something similar by claiming “We are No.1” when our favorite sports team wins a championship. But there are three boasts that are never found at anytime in the early church or even down to the present day. They are:
- No city claims to have the body of Jesus Christ.
- No city claims to have the body of the Blessed Virgin Mary and
- No one has ever claimed to be the brother of Jesus noer claimed Jesus as a relative.
Q
qOcOp
Guest
There are many that are scandalized by the devotion Catholics give to the Blessed Virgin Mary but these should not bother any Christian especially Catholics. Mary is the Mother of Jesus (God). The God of all creation whom desired to be subject to Mary while on earth in the person of Jesus Christ. "and he went down with them and came to Nazareth…and was subject to them" Luke 2:52 If you want to live Christ and breath Christ then you must also be subject to his Blessed Mother. This requires putting your trust in her the same way Christ did and to the same extent that Christ did. Christ who was God entrusted to her His mind, heart, body, and soul and if Jesus did that well so will I. Now I would like to leave you with some scripture verses that inspired writers have given us through The Holy Spirit regarding Jesus’ most beautiful Mother
"Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" Luke 1:42
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour; for he has regarded the lowliness of his handmaid". Luke 1:46-48
For, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me". Luke 1:48,49
"Blessed art thou, O daughter, by the Lord the most high God, above all women upon earth". “For he has so magnified thy name this day, that thy praise shall not depart out of the mouth of men” “In every nation which shall hear thy name, the God of Israel shall be magnified on occasion of thee” “Thou art the glory of Jerusalem, thou art the joy of Israel, thou art the honor of our people”. Judith 13:23,25,31/15:10
"Hear, O daughter, and see; turn your ear, for the King shall desire your beauty" PS 44:11,12
"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun. And the moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" Apoc 12:1
"All glorious is the kings daughter as she enters; her raiment is threaded with spun gold" PS 44:14
"I am the mother of fair love, and of fear and of knowledge, and of holy hope." “In me all grace of the way and of truth, in me is all hope of life and virtue.” “come to me, all you that yearn for me, and be filled with my fruits” “You will remember me as sweeter than honey, better to have than the honeycomb”. Sirach 50:8,9/ 24:24,25,26,27
"So now, O children, listen to me; instruction and wisdom do not reject!" “Happy are those who keep my ways, watching daily at my gates.” “For he who finds me finds life, and wins favor from the Lord” Prov 8:32,33,34,35
God Bless
"Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" Luke 1:42
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour; for he has regarded the lowliness of his handmaid". Luke 1:46-48
For, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me". Luke 1:48,49
"Blessed art thou, O daughter, by the Lord the most high God, above all women upon earth". “For he has so magnified thy name this day, that thy praise shall not depart out of the mouth of men” “In every nation which shall hear thy name, the God of Israel shall be magnified on occasion of thee” “Thou art the glory of Jerusalem, thou art the joy of Israel, thou art the honor of our people”. Judith 13:23,25,31/15:10
"Hear, O daughter, and see; turn your ear, for the King shall desire your beauty" PS 44:11,12
"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun. And the moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" Apoc 12:1
"All glorious is the kings daughter as she enters; her raiment is threaded with spun gold" PS 44:14
"I am the mother of fair love, and of fear and of knowledge, and of holy hope." “In me all grace of the way and of truth, in me is all hope of life and virtue.” “come to me, all you that yearn for me, and be filled with my fruits” “You will remember me as sweeter than honey, better to have than the honeycomb”. Sirach 50:8,9/ 24:24,25,26,27
"So now, O children, listen to me; instruction and wisdom do not reject!" “Happy are those who keep my ways, watching daily at my gates.” “For he who finds me finds life, and wins favor from the Lord” Prov 8:32,33,34,35
God Bless
L
LilyM
Guest
There is no conflict between this ‘worship’ and the worship that is due only to God if you go back to the Latin terms used for most of Church history to describe them - dulia, hyperdulia and latria. Only the last is due God.
It’s a bit like assuming all uses of the word ‘love’ to mean the same thing without referring to the Greek distinctions between agape, eros, philia and storche.
F
firstmode
Guest
You would be devistated if your widowed wife married another man later in life after you died and she was left all alone? That is kind of selfish dude… she is not going to be your wife, girlfriend, or sexual partner in heaven dude.
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 (New Living Translation)
8 So I say to those who aren’t married and to widows—it’s better to stay unmarried, just as I am. 9 But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust.
Matthew 22:23-31 (New Living Translation)
Discussion about Resurrection
23 That same day Jesus was approached by some Sadducees—religious leaders who say there is no resurrection from the dead. They posed this question: 24 “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies without children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will carry on the brother’s name.’[a] 25 Well, suppose there were seven brothers. The oldest one married and then died without children, so his brother married the widow. 26 But the second brother also died, and the third brother married her. This continued with all seven of them. 27 Last of all, the woman also died. 28 So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For all seven were married to her.”
29 Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. 30 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
31 “But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead—haven’t you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said,b
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firstmode
Guest
There are various books and writings around the traditions of Mary. The earliest one, the protevangelion of James, has some details. Not sure it specifies he had children.
ministries.tliquest.net/theology/apocryphas/nt/protevan.htm
THE PROTEVANGELION OF JAMES
CHAPTER 4
- An angel appears to Anna and tells her she shall conceive; two angels appear to her on the same errand. 5. Joachim sacrifices. 8. Anna goes to meet him, 9. rejoicing that she shall conceive.
- Joachim abides the first day in his house, but sacrifices the next day. 2. He consults the plate on the priest’s forehead 3. and is without sin. 6. Anna brings forth a daughter, 9. whom she calls Mary.
2. Mary fed in the temple by angels. 3. When twelve years old the priests consult what to do with her. 6. The angel of the Lord warns Zacharias to call together all the widowers, each bringing a rod. 7. The people meet by sound of trumpet. 8. Joseph throws away his hatchet, and goes to the meeting. 11. A dove comes forth from his rod, and alights on his head. 12. He is chosen to betroth the Virgin. 13. He refuses because he is an old man, 15. is compelled, 16. takes her home, and goes to attend to his trade of building.
CHAPTER 9
- The priests desire a new veil for the temple, 3. seven virgins cast lots for making different parts of it, 4. the lot to spin the true purple falls to Mary. 5. Zacharias, the high- priest, becomes mute. 7. Mary takes a pot to draw water, and hears a voice, 8. trembles and begins to work, 9. an angel appears, and salutes her, and tells her she will conceive by the Holy Spirit. 17. She submits, 19. visits her cousin Elizabeth, whose child in her womb leaps
- Joseph returns from building houses, finds the Virgin grown big, being six months’ gone with child, 2. is jealous and troubled, 8. He reproaches her. 10. She affirms her innocence. 13. He leaves her and 16. determines to dismiss her privately, 17. but is warned in a dream that Mary is with child by the Holy Spirit, 20. and glorifies God who has shown him such favor
3. Annas visits Joseph, perceives the Virgin big with child, 4. and informs the high-priest that Joseph had privately married her. 8. Joseph and Mary brought to trial on the charge. 17. Joseph drinks the water of the Lord as an ordeal, and receiving no harm, returns home.
CHAPTER 12
- A decree from Augustus for taxing the Jews. 5. Joseph puts Mary on an ***, to return to Bethlehem, 6. she looks sorrowful, 7. she laughs, 8. Joseph inquires the cause of each, 9. she tells him she sees two persons, one mourning and the other rejoicing, 10. her delivery being near, he takes her from the ***, and places her in a cave.
- Joseph seeks a Hebrew midwife, 2. perceives the fowls stopping in their flight, 3. the working people at their food not moving, 8. the sheep standing still, 9. the shepherd fixed and immoveable, 10. and young goats with their mouths touching the water but not drinking.
- Joseph finds a midwife. 10. A bright cloud overshadows the cave. 11. A great light in the cave gradually increases until the infant is born. 13. The midwife goes out and tells Salome that she has seen a virgin bring forth. 17. Salome doubts it. 20. Her hand withers. 22. She supplicates the Lord, 18. and is cured, 30. but warned not to declare what she had seen
- Wise men come from the east. 3. Herod alarmed; 8. tells them if they find the child, to bring him word. 10. They visit the cave and offer the child their treasure, 11. and being warned in a dream, do not return to Herod, but go home another way.
- Herod enraged, orders the infants in Bethlehem to be slain. 2. Mary puts her infant in an ox manger. 3. Elizabeth flees with her son John to the mountains. 6. A mountain miraculously divides and receives them. 9. Herod incensed at the escape of John, causes Zacharias to be murdered at the altar, 23. the roofs of the temple rent, the body miraculously conveyed, and the blood petrified. 25. Israel mourns for him. 27. Simeon chosen his successor by lot.
Authorship and date
The document presents itself as written by James: “I, James, wrote this history in Jerusalem.”-XXV[3] Thus the purported author is James the Just, whom the text claims is a son of Joseph from a prior marriage, and thus a stepbrother of Jesus.
Scholars have established that, based on the style of the language and the fact that the author is not aware of contemporary Jewish customs, while the historical James the Just certainly was, the work is pseudepigraphical (not written by the person it is attributed to).[4] For instance the work suggests there were consecrated temple virgins in Judaism, as with Vestal Virgins in pagan Rome, but this is spurious. Celibacy has played little role in Judaism, in which marriage and raising children are understood as holy obligations.[5]
The consensus is that it was actually composed some time in the 2nd century AD. The first mention of it is by Origen of Alexandria in the early 3rd century, who says the text, like that of a “Gospel of Peter”, was of dubious, recent appearance and shared with that book the claim that the ‘brethren of the Lord’ were sons of Joseph by a former wife.[6]
F
firstmode
Guest
That Joseph was old and a widower with children before his marriage with the Virgin has been doubted by some. However, Thephylact, Occumenius, and indeed all the Latin Fathers till Ambrose, and the Greek Fathers afterwards, maintained these opinions of Joseph’s age and family, founded upon their belief in the authenticity of this book.
CHAPTER 8
2. Mary fed in the temple by angels. 3. When twelve years old the priests consult what to do with her. 6. The angel of the Lord warns Zacharias to call together all the widowers, each bringing a rod. 7. The people meet by sound of trumpet. 8. Joseph throws away his hatchet, and goes to the meeting. 11. A dove comes forth from his rod, and alights on his head. 12. He is chosen to betroth the Virgin. 13. He refuses because he is an old man, 15. is compelled, 16. takes her home, and goes to attend to his trade of building.
CHAPTER 8
2. Mary fed in the temple by angels. 3. When twelve years old the priests consult what to do with her. 6. The angel of the Lord warns Zacharias to call together all the widowers, each bringing a rod. 7. The people meet by sound of trumpet. 8. Joseph throws away his hatchet, and goes to the meeting. 11. A dove comes forth from his rod, and alights on his head. 12. He is chosen to betroth the Virgin. 13. He refuses because he is an old man, 15. is compelled, 16. takes her home, and goes to attend to his trade of building.
- And her parents went away filled with wonder, and praising God, because the girl did not return back to them.
- But Mary continued in the temple as a dove educated there and received her food from the hand of an angel.
- And when she was twelve years of age, the priests met in a council, and said, Behold, Mary is twelve years of age; what will we do with her, for fear that the holy place of the Lord our God should be defiled?
- Then replied the priests to Zacharias the high-priest, You stand at the altar of the Lord, and enter into the holy place, to make petitions concerning her, so whatsoever the Lord will show to you, do it.
- Then the high-priest entered into the Holy of Holies, and taking away with him the breast-plate of judgment made prayers concerning her;
- And behold the angel of the Lord came to him, and said, Zacharias, Zacharias, go forth and call together all the widowers among the people, and let every one of them bring his rod, and he by whom the Lord will show a sign will be the husband of Mary.
- And the criers went out through all Judaea, and all the people ran and met together when the trumpet of the Lord sounded.
- [New paragraph in the oldest extant manuscripts] Joseph also, throwing away the hatchet, went out to meet them; and when they were met, they went to the high-priest, taking every man his rod.
- After the high-priest had received their rods, he went into the temple to pray;
- And when he had finished his prayer, he took the rods, and went forth and distributed them, and no miracle attended them.
- The last rod was taken by Joseph, and behold a dove proceeded out of the rod, and flew upon the head of Joseph.
- And the high-priest said, Joseph, you are the person chosen to take the Virgin of the Lord, to keep her for him:
13. But Joseph refused, saying, I am an old man, and have children, but she is young, and I fear, for fear that I should appear ridiculous in Israel. - Then the high-priest replied, Joseph, fear the Lord your God, and remember how God dealt with Dathan, Korah, and Abiram, how the earth opened and swallowed them up, because of their contradiction.
- Now therefore, Joseph, fear God, unless the like things should happen in your family.
- Joseph, then being afraid, took her to his house and said to Mary, Behold I have taken you from the temple of the Lord, and now I will leave you in my house; I must go to attend to my trade of building. The Lord be with you.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
There is a strong, ancient and continuous tradition that St. Joseph was a perpetual virgin just as his spouse the Blessed Virgin Mary.
First of all, from the Gospel account of the Archangel Gabriel’s visit we know that although Mary was betrothed, she couldn’t understand how she could bear a son, since she did not know man. That means, she probably already had in place a mutual vow with St. Joseph of virginity. That Mary somehow “extracted” a vow of virginity from Joseph to suit her own vow is unthinkable, and to suppose his vow came after the Angel appeared to him in his sleep to assure him that he should take the Virgin Mary as his spouse does not square with the facts that Mary already alludes to a vow with the Archangel Gabriel long before St. Joseph has his dream.
Secondly, the awesome holiness of Jesus Christ, and His virgin mother Mary, would need to be protected by someone whose own holiness and virginity was fitting for such a task. The thoughtful Christian balks at imagining the Virgin Mother of God, and her infant son Jesus Christ being protected by one that was formerly married (even having other children!) Not because there is anything unholy about marriage or having children! No! But rather because St. Joseph’s Virginity will make his guardianship over the Virginal Mother of God, and her virgin Son most effective and most fitting.
That these “other children” of St. Joseph never turn up in any Gospel account while St. Joseph lived, or even their disposition after he died creates more problems then it solves by the “brothers” references in the NT.
Thirdly, The Protoevangelium is not inspired Scripture and is most definitely a mixture of stories and conjectures that wasn’t even written until a couple of centuries after the fact. That certain fathers of the Church credit some of the stories as credible is not to say they are factual.
For an excellent read on what the fathers of the Church taught on the Perpetual Virginity of St. Joseph please read this excellent summary here
First of all, from the Gospel account of the Archangel Gabriel’s visit we know that although Mary was betrothed, she couldn’t understand how she could bear a son, since she did not know man. That means, she probably already had in place a mutual vow with St. Joseph of virginity. That Mary somehow “extracted” a vow of virginity from Joseph to suit her own vow is unthinkable, and to suppose his vow came after the Angel appeared to him in his sleep to assure him that he should take the Virgin Mary as his spouse does not square with the facts that Mary already alludes to a vow with the Archangel Gabriel long before St. Joseph has his dream.
Secondly, the awesome holiness of Jesus Christ, and His virgin mother Mary, would need to be protected by someone whose own holiness and virginity was fitting for such a task. The thoughtful Christian balks at imagining the Virgin Mother of God, and her infant son Jesus Christ being protected by one that was formerly married (even having other children!) Not because there is anything unholy about marriage or having children! No! But rather because St. Joseph’s Virginity will make his guardianship over the Virginal Mother of God, and her virgin Son most effective and most fitting.
That these “other children” of St. Joseph never turn up in any Gospel account while St. Joseph lived, or even their disposition after he died creates more problems then it solves by the “brothers” references in the NT.
Thirdly, The Protoevangelium is not inspired Scripture and is most definitely a mixture of stories and conjectures that wasn’t even written until a couple of centuries after the fact. That certain fathers of the Church credit some of the stories as credible is not to say they are factual.
For an excellent read on what the fathers of the Church taught on the Perpetual Virginity of St. Joseph please read this excellent summary here
B
Bran_Stark
Guest
But should we really be comparing a husband-wife relationship to a mother-son one like that? Would not the Church as the bride of Christ be a more fitting analogy?
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GEddie
Guest
I’ve never had a problem with the Virginity of Mary; I trust the Church to say about her.
As to the brother issue: I’ve long believed that S. Joseph was an older man when betrothed to Mary, having children from an earlier marriage, who would then have been our LORD’s older “foster brothers.” This would explain not only why they are not in charge of Mary (she’s not their mom), but why S. Joseph disappears after the finding in the temple. Presumably, he died between then and Cana, and his passing goes unremarked because he was older.
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