Why no veil?

[FatherOfTwelve]

Why has the practice of being veiled at Mass almost stopped?

1. It has been a tradition (maybe “T”) in the church up until the 60s/70s.
2. The reason I would suggest “T” is that it is clearly taught in Sacred Scripture for the practice.
3. Our Magesterium still obey this teaching.

So if all three (witnesses) agree, Tradition, Scripture and Magesterium.
Ladies, why not?

Curious…

 

[Miserys_Fence]

I do cover my head (not only at Mass, but anywhere in public), but I do it because God put it on my heart to do so, not because any mortal being told me to. Maybe not all women feel this calling?

Miz

 

[puzzleannie]

Why has the practice of being veiled at Mass almost stopped?

1. It has been a tradition (maybe “T”) in the church up until the 60s/70s.

maybe where you grew up. I never saw a veil in church except for a couple of years in the 60s when the fashion for wearing hats changed, and even then only among younger girls since the older generation–even among my Protestant relatives and neighbors–still preferred hats for church (think Aunt Bea of Mayberry).

1. Our Magesterium still obey this teaching.

please cite for me the current canon law that requires women to wear headcovering at all and veils specificlaly in Mass. Cite for me the canon law at any age in Church history that specified veils over all othe headcovering.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I do cover my head (not only at Mass, but anywhere in public), but I do it because God put it on my heart to do so, not because any mortal being told me to. Maybe not all women feel this calling?

Miz

That’s really my point.
God, started the “Tradition”.
God, reveals it in Sacred Scripture.
God, ensures the magesterium through the Holy Spirit obey this practice. The Bishops remove their covering during the Eucharistic Prayer. Your Parish priest is always uncovered.

I agree the Lord is calling…why so few as yourself listen?

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

maybe where you grew up. I never saw a veil in church except for a couple of years in the 60s when the fashion for wearing hats changed, and even then only among younger girls since the older generation–even among my Protestant relatives and neighbors–still preferred hats for church (think Aunt Bea of Mayberry).

Maybe so, a coincidence. But I do remember, it seams it stopped (began to fade), around the same time. I was born in '63. From my earliest childhood I remember my grandmother and mother wearing the hat’s (Lutheran) with the lace hanging down over their eyes. Then “Poof”, it seams that everyone forgot why, and just stopped.

 

[puzzleannie]

. From my earliest childhood I remember my grandmother and mother wearing the hat’s (Lutheran) with the lace hanging down over their eyes.

ah, hats, not veils
well I was born in 1949 and was taken to church weekly since infancy and never saw a veil until they became part of our uniform in 1964 when the red beanies were voted out. Around that time hats ceased to become part of the uniform of the well-dressed fashion forward woman. Catholic women who were still required to wear head covering at Mass until the changes following V2 were implemented at various times in various places wore chapel veils (small round caplets) or a veil of a larger size mesh with a bow on top, cut large to accommodate the beehive hairstyles of the time, or a ribbon or fabric covered ring with a wisp of tulle attached. Except for the older generation, and in African American churches where formality and reverence remained much longer, where hats were the prevailing choice.

since you chose to post in the scripture forum, rather than the traditional forum where the attack on bare-headed women usually is staged, I assume you will be giving not only the relevant scripture citation on headcovering in the 1st century church, but the exegesis on why the Church is wrong not to require it today.

The sidebar on headcovering by clergy has nothing to do with this discussion, since you address the ladies, unless somebody cares to give scripture and doctrine to explain why it is relevant.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

maybe where you grew up. I never saw a veil in church except for a couple of years in the 60s when the fashion for wearing hats changed, and even then only among younger girls since the older generation–even among my Protestant relatives and neighbors–still preferred hats for church (think Aunt Bea of Mayberry).
please cite for me the current canon law that requires women to wear headcovering at all and veils specificlaly in Mass. Cite for me the canon law at any age in Church history that specified veils over all othe headcovering.

From God’s Canon Law. (RSV)
1Cor.11
[1] Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
[2] I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
[3] But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
[4] Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,
[5] but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head – it is the same as if her head were shaven.
[6] For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.
[7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
[8] (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.
[9] Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)
[10] That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.
[11] (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman;
[12] for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.)
[13] Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
[14] Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him,
[15] but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
[16] If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God

I don’t know if the “Canon Law” states it. I am only aware that tradition testifies to it, scripture testifies to it. Our bishops obey it.

That’s all.

 

[puzzleannie]

please provide the citation in current canon law that proves your contention that “the bishops obey” today Paul’s injunction to the 1st century church

 

[Rence]

It’s not required, and I haven’t received this call that others say they have received, so I choose not to. If others wish to wear a veil (some are so pretty, and so becoming on some women) that’s cool with me, but I see no reason for me to wear a veil.

 

[lizaanne]

ah, hats, not veils

annie - now you know you are nitpicking, and that when most people say veils they are referring to head covering in general. You have been around here far long enough to know that, and still you let this topic always get you in a bunch.

FatherOfTwelve - there is a group for women who cover their heads here on CAF - you may like to check it out: Veiled in Grace

The Church NEVER told us to take them (head coverings - style is irrelevant) off. I would like anyone to show me where THAT was done in writing. They can’t. There is all sorts of swerving around cannon law this and abrogated that - but no one can ever show me where we were told it was ok to start going to Mass without our heads covered. So many of us still do.

~Liza

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

ah, hats, not veils
well I was born in 1949 and was taken to church weekly since infancy and never saw a veil until they became part of our uniform in 1964 when the red beanies were voted out. Around that time hats ceased to become part of the uniform of the well-dressed fashion forward woman. Catholic women who were still required to wear head covering at Mass until the changes following V2 were implemented at various times in various places wore chapel veils (small round caplets) or a veil of a larger size mesh with a bow on top, cut large to accommodate the beehive hairstyles of the time, or a ribbon or fabric covered ring with a wisp of tulle attached. Except for the older generation, and in African American churches where formality and reverence remained much longer, where hats were the prevailing choice.

since you chose to post in the scripture forum, rather than the traditional forum where the attack on bare-headed women usually is staged, I assume you will be giving not only the relevant scripture citation on headcovering in the 1st century church, but the exegesis on why the Church is wrong not to require it today.

The sidebar on headcovering by clergy has nothing to do with this discussion, since you address the ladies, unless somebody cares to give scripture and doctrine to explain why it is relevant.

It’s not a side bar, the men obey this as well by NOT being covered. Our Bishops especially because of their vestments. When ever a Bishop celebrates Mass, he removes his “Covering” right before the eucharistic prayer. No man that I no of would ever even “Pray” anywhere with his hat on. It’s something deeply engrained, even the secular world follows this to some degree. I always assumed most folks, women and men are aware of this but may have forgotten. Or it’s just not cared about. But I posted here in this forum because it’s not just “tradition”, it’s scriptural and directs the behavior of our Bishops (Magesterium).

 

[puzzleannie]

annie - now you know you are nitpicking, and that when most people say veils they are referring to head covering in general. You have been around here far long enough to know that, and still you let this topic always get you in a bunch.

~Liza

yes most people do know that, but OP made a point of veils specifically
and you also know I personally like and approve of headcovering, what gets my knickers in a twist is other people laying down the law about it when their names do not begin with B and end in16

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

please provide the citation in current canon law that proves your contention that “the bishops obey” today Paul’s injunction to the 1st century church

Go to any Mass when a Bishop celebrates, I GUARENTEE he will remove his “Covering” before the “Eucharistic Prayer”. He would be violating God’s specific command if he did not. Even if that Bishop (I’m sure they do) doesn’t know why. He REMOVES it.
Facts are not debatable,
Fact 1) It has been a constant tradition till the 60’s, women and men (men still).
Fact 2) It has always been in God’s Word. Probably up to the sixties has always been interpreted by theologians as saying that a woman should be covered and a man should not be. (yes I said Probably, I’m not sure of that.) Yes, I could go verse by verse and tell you what it means to me if you like.
Fact 3) Our Bishops obey God’s Word even though it’s not in canon law per se’

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

It’s not required, and I haven’t received this call that others say they have received, so I choose not to. If others wish to wear a veil (some are so pretty, and so becoming on some women) that’s cool with me, but I see no reason for me to wear a veil.

Not required by who? God or your parish priest?

 

[Rence]

It’s not required period. If priests, bishops and other religious can’t figure out whether it’s still required or not, then it’s not required. If a woman wants to wear a headcovering to Church, she will. If she doesn’t want to wear a headcovering she won’t. Both can attend Mass and receive Communion.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

please provide the citation in current canon law that proves your contention that “the bishops obey” today Paul’s injunction to the 1st century church

Do you presume he only meant the 1st century Church…? When he said;
"1Cor.11
[1] Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
[2] I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

Sister, this is one of the main passages in scripture that we can communicate to our protestant friends that we MUST maintain and pass on the traditions that were passed on from Christ to the Apostles, our Bishops who maintain/obey this command. Have you never been to a Mass with a Bishop and seen this with your own eyes? I am truley

 

[benny_f]

**I speak on behalf of my own parish here, and not on behalf of international or even national Catholics.**I guess most women interpreted it as an oppressive measure, or maybe found it offensive due to the fact that only women have to cover the heads, as if in shame for the mere fact that they were women. No men covered their head in my parish, EVER!

Personally I would like to wear a veil, but given the fact that not even the elderly wear veils anymore, it does seem slightly out of of the ordinary. My grandmother, God rest her soul, always wore some form of head covering, it wasn’t a lace veil but it sure did cover Granny’s head

Aside from that, leaving a cap on in Church is seen as bad manners where I come from, and given the fact most people aren’t aware of the veil tradition anymore, you would probably be chatised for wearing it in my parish.

I guess the Church doesn’t feel it’s integral to wear a veil to church anymore, otherwise they would have enforced it, or at least recommended it.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

It’s not required period. If priests, bishops and other religious can’t figure out whether it’s still required or not, then it’s not required. If a woman wants to wear a headcovering to Church, she will. If she doesn’t want to wear a headcovering she won’t. Both can attend Mass and receive Communion.

Sister,
For me to say that IT IS REQUIRED is way out of line. I know that I have no authority to make such a statment. You and I do not have that gift. What I am saying is this, please hear me.
It has been a constant tradition, it’s commanded in scripture and our Bishops still obey it. Heck, even the Knights of Columbus will remove those silly hats when we get to the Eucharistic Prayer. They know they need to remove them.

We have three witnesses to a belief/practice. Maybe all of us should (with that knowlege) open our Bibles and read 1st Cor. 11-12. Notice that Paul is not just talking or appealing to the 1st century church. This goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. and I would suggest to us as well. Maybe ask, why. Why would God want me to do such a thing. Please read chapter 12 as well, it really puts it in context of the Mass, especially the liturgy of the Eucharist. Also, think of our religious Sisters. They (orthodox sisters) take it a step further and are “Covered” at all times. If you think of the colors, traditional Black and White. They wear black over top. Symbolizing a couple of things. One, being dead to oneself / married (one with her husband, but she is covered to HONOR her Head. Jesus is her spouse) and white underneath, the purity (the virgin/spotless bride of Christ). I find it amazing that the woman I do see wear a veil/covering the married ladies wear black and the single white, maybe just a coincidence. This tradition was exhorted by the apostles, recorded in scripture and obeyed by all for “almost” 2000 years. I’m not a theologian, just a dad trying to pass on to my family the traditions, teachings of our Catholic Faith. God Bless.

 

[puzzleannie]

Go to any Mass when a Bishop celebrates, I GUARENTEE he will remove his “Covering” before the “Eucharistic Prayer”. per se’

which has nothing whatever to do with the topic you introduced in your OP

 

[dashso40]

I think it’s just as times changed, people stopped wearing veils to church. My friend goes to the Latin Mass and she said a lot of women wear the veil there.