Why no veil?

[Sherry_G]

Pondering on this one…I was born in the 40’s, received First Holy Communion in the early 50’s, Confirmed in 1960, graduated from Catholic High School in 1964 and always wore a head covering to Mass. All the rage until the 60’s was hat wearing, not only in church but also in society for many occasions. The chapel veil was introduced and became the norm for daily Mass attendance as part of my elementary school day in the fifties. By the mid 60’s hats were worn only on Sunday where I greaw up in the midwest, at least.

I still use my 1962 Roman Catholic Daily Missal because of the wonderful prayers and extensive information about our beautiful faith. I went through it and found no references whatsoever about head covering even though it is very detailed about all the Liturgy, including all the vestments, placement of church buildings and parts of the church itself, the altar, all the sacred vessels, the way in which we the faithful should follow along during the Mass, pray the Mass, the reasons for the Liturgical Seasons, Colors used, Proper of the Saints, etc. Nowhere is the head covering even mentioned. However, a woman back then would never dare to enter a church without a head covering of some kind! I remember an instance where we fashioned a pretty good facsimile of a chapel veil for a friend out of kleenex so she could go to Mass!

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

It’s not required period. If priests, bishops and other religious can’t figure out whether it’s still required or not, then it’s not required. If a woman wants to wear a headcovering to Church, she will. If she doesn’t want to wear a headcovering she won’t. Both can attend Mass and receive Communion.

Sorry my bad. I posted it twice…

 

[Rence]

Maybe ask, why. Why would God want me to do such a thing. Please read chapter 12 as well, it really puts it in context of the Mass, especially the liturgy of the Eucharist. Also, think of our religious Sisters. They (orthodox sisters) take it a step further and are “Covered” at all times. If you think of the colors, traditional Black and White. They wear black over top. Symbolizing a couple of things. One, being dead to oneself / married (one with her husband, but she is covered to HONOR her Head. Jesus is her spouse) and white underneath, the purity (the virgin/spotless bride of Christ). I find it amazing that the woman I do see wear a veil/covering the married ladies wear black and the single white, maybe just a coincidence. This tradition was exhorted by the apostles, recorded in scripture and obeyed by all for “almost” 2000 years. I’m not a theologian, just a dad trying to pass on to my family the traditions, teachings of our Catholic Faith. God Bless.

I think it’s wonderful that you want to pass on to your family the traditions, teachings of our Catholic faith. I think more people should do that. The time will come when children will grow up and make their own decisions, based on what they have learned at home. So I think that it’s important to lay down a solid foundation for your children. If you feel that it is important to teach your girls to cover their head and hair in Church, by all means, you should do it. When they are older, they will choose to either do it or not to it. But you’ve provided a nice tradition for them to learn and live by. Sharing traditions and teachings is a resonsibility of parents and I think it’s great that you’re doing that. But traditions are not the same as requirements.

I thought you were asking women why they choose not to veil, and that’s how I answered. I do not believe that God wants women to cover their head and hair. I think that’s a want of some people who belong to the Catholic Church, rather than a requirement of God. The fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old may convince some people that such a tradition is worth keeping. But for me, the fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old means that it should be revisited It was a different time and place. We, as the human race, have evolved over time: we have changed, grown and further developed. So these things taught by men over 2000 years ago, were taught by those with a different understanding of our world.

And certainly when a teaching or tradition is argued over by priests, bishops, theologians, and apologists with no real answer in sight, it tells me that it really isn’t a required teaching either way, and that it will probably change back and forth. That means that this particular teaching (whatever that teaching is) has not stood the test of time. The teaching and dogma of the Trinity has stood the test of time. It won’t change. But head coverings come and go. It’s not a requirement of me, and I don’t feel called to wear one. Therefore, I choose not to. It’s okay with me that some women are called to cover their head and hair, but I won’t do it simply because someone says I must. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say

 

[jrsmith]

I think if women want to have full freedom to not wear veils, there must be a counterpart male-led movements so us men can “fight” for the right to cover our heads during Mass or when praying lol

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

which has nothing whatever to do with the topic you introduced in your OP

It’s one in the same, I apologize I thought most Catholics knew that the Bishop takes his “Covering” off. So I did not see the need to state that at the begining of the thread. It’s plainly visible to all that the Bishops do this. Again I apoplogize, maybe you have never been to Mass when a bishop celebrates. So my original thread should have been stated as such, Since the Bishops/men…why do the ladies no longer…

Sincerly, do you see where I’m coming from at all?

 

[cjellis27]

I was born in 1980 and have attended Mass since I was in diapers. I have never seen a veil on any woman in any church I have ever attended. I didn’t even realize this used to be a practice until I further studied Vatican II on my own in my young adult years. No priest or bishop ever commented on this “tradition.” There is absolutely no mention of wearing a veil in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I believe we turn to when in question regarding a specific teaching or tradition. Therefore, I do not now wear and have never worn a veil or hat to church, save my veil on my first Holy Communion.

 

[Rence]

I think if women want to have full freedom to not wear veils, there must be a counterpart male-led movements so us men can “fight” for the right to cover our heads during Mass or when praying lol

It wouldn’t bother me either way. I couldn’t be bothered about what someone else is wearing or not wearing while I am praying. Unless someone’s go body parts waving in my face, I’m probably not going to notice…

 

[lizaanne]

However, a woman back then would never dare to enter a church without a head covering of some kind! I remember an instance where we fashioned a pretty good facsimile of a chapel veil for a friend out of kleenex so she could go to Mass!

Exactly. The missal also does not say that a woman should show up wearing shoes or undergarments either - it is assumed she will dress properly for Mass. It does not say that a man should never cover his head, it is assumed all men know proper etiquette at Mass and would never do that.

Just because something isn’t explicitly written down does not mean it shouldn’t happen - a woman covering her head is a centuries long tradition in the Church. Why in the world would anyone ever think that you have to actually TELL someone to do something that they are already doing, and wouldn’t be caught dead NOT doing? Of course you didn’t find it there - it is assumed a woman will present herself properly covered for Mass. Some things just go with out saying…or at least they used to.

~Liza

 

[Miss_Linda]

Exactly. The missal also does not say that a woman should show up wearing shoes or undergarments either - it is assumed she will dress properly for Mass. It does not say that a man should never cover his head, it is assumed all men know proper etiquette at Mass and would never do that.

Just because something isn’t explicitly written down does not mean it shouldn’t happen - a woman covering her head is a centuries long tradition in the Church. Why in the world would anyone ever think that you have to actually TELL someone to do something that they are already doing, and wouldn’t be caught dead NOT doing? Of course you didn’t find it there - it is assumed a woman will present herself properly covered for Mass. Some things just go with out saying…or at least they used to.

~Liza

**AMEN!!! **

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

It wouldn’t bother me either way. I couldn’t be bothered about what someone else is wearing or not wearing while I am praying. Unless someone’s go body parts waving in my face, I’m probably not going to notice…

Sister, thanks for the affirmation of passing on the traditions.
I’m new to this forum thing so I copied your post and pasted it into a word doc. I want you to know I think I hear what your saying, to make sure I want to inject a response to each of your statements. I’m a simple guy and like things one step at a time.

Rence
I thought you were asking women why they choose not to veil, and that’s how I answered. I do not believe that God wants women to cover their head and hair.

FofT – Then why in scripture would he explicitly tell us to maintain this practice?

Rence
I think that’s a want of some people who belong to the Catholic Church, rather than a requirement of God.

FofT – I do believe it’s a personal thing for women, there is no active teaching on it. So the ladies are stuck wrestling with it themselves (reminds me of this incident in a garden once…) but I hope you can concede that this is a universal requirement that the Bishops must obey. It is part of the Rubrics of the Mass. I also think (not sure) that if you were to go before the Pope, when he celebrates Mass, ah, you will be covered. Not in an open air stadium but at St. Peter’s.

Rence
The fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old may convince some people that such a tradition is worth keeping. But for me, the fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old means that it should be revisited It was a different time and place. We, as the human race, have evolved over time: we have changed, grown and further developed. So these things taught by men over 2000 years ago, were taught by those with a different understanding of our world.

FofT

• Sister, by this statement you don’t even sound Catholic. This is something a protestant would say. Are you posing….? With that said, you can’t deny the Pope still requires it. He un-covers just like any Bishop would. The Church has not changed the Rubrics, like Prego, it’s in there!

Rence
And certainly when a teaching or tradition is argued over by priests, bishops, theologians, and apologists with no real answer in sight, it tells me that it really isn’t a required teaching either way, and that it will probably change back and forth.

FofT
You may see it being argued today and over the last 40 years. Primarily due to the over-whelming tide of feminism in the US which crept into the Church. I don’t think anyone can point to a Bishop who one day got up and said “Ladies chuck those veils, it’s not for today” It slowly spread, now it’s the norm in this country.

Rence
That means that this particular teaching (whatever that teaching is) has not stood the test of time. The teaching and dogma of the Trinity has stood the test of time. It won’t change.

FofT
Yes it has, the Successors of the Apostles still obey it. Agreed, the trinity has stood the test of time “Within” the Catholic Church, not outside. Even though it’s not explicitly stated.

Rence
But head coverings come and go.

FofT
No, they don’t. It’s always been with us and has never left. Our Bishops attest to this fact by their obedience.

Rence
It’s not a requirement of me, and I don’t feel called to wear one. Therefore, I choose not to. It’s okay with me that some women are called to cover their head and hair, but I won’t do it simply because someone says I must. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.

FofT
I do, but I guess this is truly one of those things where at least you and I will agree to disagree.
God bless you sister,
In Christ and Our Lady

 

[Miss_Linda]

The fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old may convince some people that such a tradition is worth keeping. But for me, the fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old means that it should be revisited It was a different time and place. We, as the human race, have evolved over time: we have changed, grown and further developed. So these things taught by men over 2000 years ago, were taught by those with a different understanding of our world.

This attitude is identified as a serious error in Bl. Pope Pius IX “Syllabus of Errors”: Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.

As Catholics, we do not have a right to decide for ourselves what we will and will not obey. The Church teachings, handed down through the ages, do not “go out of fashion” just because we find them inconvenient. We cannot, as Bl. Pope Pius IX states below, “import the doctrine of human progress into the Catholic religion”.

“Enemies of divine revelation, with reckless and sacrilegious effrontery, want to import the doctrine of human progress into the Catholic religion. They extol it with the highest praise, as if religion itself were not of God but the work of men, or a philosophical discovery which can be perfected by human means.” --Qui Pluribus, November 9, 1846

Be very careful not to permit your opinions (Pope Pius calls them “monstrous portents of opinions”) to be considered more important than the teachings of the Church.

“We condemn the monstrous portents of opinion which prevail especially in this age, bringing with them the greatest loss of souls and detriment of civil society itself; which are grievously opposed also, not only to the Catholic Church and her salutary doctrine and venerable rights, but also to the eternal natural law engraven by God in all men’s hearts, and to right reason; and from which almost all other errors have their origin.” --Quanta Cura, December 8, 1864.

 

[Rence]

Rence
I thought you were asking women why they choose not to veil, and that’s how I answered. I do not believe that God wants women to cover their head and hair.

FofT – Then why in scripture would he explicitly tell us to maintain this practice?

The Catholic Church preceded the Catholic NT, which is why we have been also taught not to just go by “Sola Scripture”. In addition, we are told to go by oral as well as written tradition. We don’t follow all the scriptures, and only scriptures. The teachings of the Catholic Church are basically in the Catechism, followed by the scriptures.

Rence
I think that’s a want of some people who belong to the Catholic Church, rather than a requirement of God.
FofT – I do believe it’s a personal thing for women, there is no active teaching on it. So the ladies are stuck wrestling with it themselves (reminds me of this incident in a garden once…) but I hope you can concede that this is a universal requirement that the Bishops must obey. It is part of the Rubrics of the Mass. I also think (not sure) that if you were to go before the Pope, when he celebrates Mass, ah, you will be covered. Not in an open air stadium but at St. Peter’s.

I’m not talking about the Bishops. They have different requirements than women. I’m only talking about women. And I can’t see myself going before the Pope when he celebrates Mass, so I don’t have to worry about being covered at St. Peter’s.

Rence
The fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old may convince some people that such a tradition is worth keeping. But for me, the fact that a tradition is over 2000 years old means that it should be revisited It was a different time and place. We, as the human race, have evolved over time: we have changed, grown and further developed. So these things taught by men over 2000 years ago, were taught by those with a different understanding of our world.
FofT

• Sister, by this statement you don’t even sound Catholic. This is something a protestant would say. Are you posing….? With that said, you can’t deny the Pope still requires it. He un-covers just like any Bishop would. The Church has not changed the Rubrics, like Prego, it’s in there!

May I remind you that traditions (unlike Dogma) do and can change. Sorry if that makes me sound Protestant to you but let me point out an example: it used to be tradition to celebrate the Mass in Latin. No more, now they are said in the language of the region in which it is celebrated. Another tradition that changed was abstaining from meat on all Fridays. Now we don’t have to abstain from meat on non-Lent Fridays as long as we make another sacrifice instead, and apparently it is questionable if that ‘something else instead’ was made clear in the U.S. As for what the Pope requires, are we still talking about the Bishop’s headcovering? Because I have no knowledge of the Pope requiring women to cover their head and hair when going to Mass.

Rence
And certainly when a teaching or tradition is argued over by priests, bishops, theologians, and apologists with no real answer in sight, it tells me that it really isn’t a required teaching either way, and that it will probably change back and forth.

FofT
You may see it being argued today and over the last 40 years. Primarily due to the over-whelming tide of feminism in the US which crept into the Church. I don’t think anyone can point to a Bishop who one day got up and said “Ladies chuck those veils, it’s not for today” It slowly spread, now it’s the norm in this country.

But the fact is, priests, bishops, theologians and apologists can’t get on the same page regarding this “requirement” of women covering their head and hair when attending Mass.
That would not be indicative of a rule that must be obeyed. For example, there is no question among lay people, priests, bishops, theologians or apologists that premarital sex is forbidden by the Church. That is a teaching that everyone knows to be true, whether they follow it or not.

Rence
That means that this particular teaching (whatever that teaching is) has not stood the test of time. The teaching and dogma of the Trinity has stood the test of time. It won’t change.

FofT
Yes it has, the Successors of the Apostles still obey it. Agreed, the trinity has stood the test of time “Within” the Catholic Church, not outside. Even though it’s not explicitly stated.

I’m not referring to Bishops. I’m only referring to women’s head covering.

Rence
It’s not a requirement of me, and I don’t feel called to wear one. Therefore, I choose not to. It’s okay with me that some women are called to cover their head and hair, but I won’t do it simply because someone says I must. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.

FofT
I do, but I guess this is truly one of those things where at least you and I will agree to disagree.
God bless you sister,
In Christ and Our Lady

That’s okay, we can disagree

 

[Rence]

As Catholics, we do not have a right to decide for ourselves what we will and will not obey. The Church teachings, handed down through the ages, do not “go out of fashion” just because we find them inconvenient. We cannot, as Bl. Pope Pius IX states below, “import the doctrine of human progress into the Catholic religion”.

The fact is, we apparently don’t all have this call to wear a veil. The fact is, it’s not required anymore. But if one is called to wear a veil, one most certainly should. Not wearing a veil does not make one Protestant. It just makes one not wearing a veil.

Be very careful not to permit your opinions (Pope Pius calls them “monstrous portents of opinions”) to be considered more important than the teachings of the Church.

Ok, I’ll try But in the meantime, it’s no longer required of women to wear the veil, which makes their preference to wear or not wear one merely their preference, and not more important that teachings of the Church.

 

[JadeStarr]

what gets my knickers in a twist is other people laying down the law about it when their names do not begin with B and end in16

---

What name are you referring to?

 

[Rence]

what gets my knickers in a twist is other people laying down the law about it when their names do not begin with B and end in16

---

What name are you referring to?

But isn’t that the same for almost anything lately?

 

[lizaanne]

what gets my knickers in a twist is other people laying down the law about it when their names do not begin with B and end in16

---

What name are you referring to?

I assume you were trying to quote puzzleannie and failed miserably. Please do learn how to quote properly so people can understand your posts.

She was referring to Pope Benedict XVI.

~Liza

 

[Moscati]

I also think (not sure) that if you were to go before the Pope, when he celebrates Mass, ah, you will be covered. Not in an open air stadium but at St. Peter’s.

No, that is definitely not a requirement. The Vatican does have a dress code, but head coverings for women are not a part of it. (They wouldn’t have let me in!)

Why would the Pope have different requirements for the faithful attending a Mass said by him in a different locations (inside vs. open air?) ? The Mass is the Mass, and the Eucharist is the Eucharist.

boston.com/news/globe/city_region/paulson/blog/18Rings-for-Cardinals.jpg

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

No, that is definitely not a requirement. The Vatican does have a dress code, but head coverings for women are not a part of it. (They wouldn’t have let me in!)

Why would the Pope have different requirements for the faithful attending a Mass said by him in a different locations (inside vs. open air?) ? The Mass is the Mass, and the Eucharist is the Eucharist.

boston.com/news/globe/city_region/paulson/blog/18Rings-for-Cardinals.jpg

Glad you cleared that up. I said I was not sure. I was hoping that stating that "someone " would have more info than I.

When the Pope came to DC, in the stadium no one could enforce a dress code. As you point out, there is one for St. Peter’s but the veil is not part of it. Thanks!

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

The Catholic Church preceded the Catholic NT, which is why we have been also taught not to just go by “Sola Scripture”. In addition, we are told to go by oral as well as written tradition. We don’t follow all the scriptures, and only scriptures. The teachings of the Catholic Church are basically in the Catechism, followed by the scriptures.

I’m not talking about the Bishops. They have different requirements than women. I’m only talking about women. And I can’t see myself going before the Pope when he celebrates Mass, so I don’t have to worry about being covered at St. Peter’s.

May I remind you that traditions (unlike Dogma) do and can change. Sorry if that makes me sound Protestant to you but let me point out an example: it used to be tradition to celebrate the Mass in Latin. No more, now they are said in the language of the region in which it is celebrated. Another tradition that changed was abstaining from meat on all Fridays. Now we don’t have to abstain from meat on non-Lent Fridays as long as we make another sacrifice instead, and apparently it is questionable if that ‘something else instead’ was made clear in the U.S. As for what the Pope requires, are we still talking about the Bishop’s headcovering? Because I have no knowledge of the Pope requiring women to cover their head and hair when going to Mass.

But the fact is, priests, bishops, theologians and apologists can’t get on the same page regarding this “requirement” of women covering their head and hair when attending Mass.
That would not be indicative of a rule that must be obeyed. For example, there is no question among lay people, priests, bishops, theologians or apologists that premarital sex is forbidden by the Church. That is a teaching that everyone knows to be true, whether they follow it or not.

I’m not referring to Bishops. I’m only referring to women’s head covering.

That’s okay, we can disagree

Not to beat a dead horse, but that’s what I’m saying it is the SAME. The Bishops are required to remove the covering hense the ladies “Should” be required to put one on. It’s the same. It’s not from scripture alone, the tradition was started (never has stopped), it was recorded in scripture and the Magesterium obey it. I think I really stink at the art of getting my point across.

 

[Sherry_G]

Not to beat a dead horse, but that’s what I’m saying it is the SAME. The Bishops are required to remove the covering hense the ladies “Should” be required to put one on. It’s the same. It’s not from scripture alone, the tradition was started (never has stopped), it was recorded in scripture and the Magesterium obey it. I think I really stink at the art of getting my point across.

Not to worry! Your point was well taken by many who are following the thread!