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campeador
Guest
World English Dictionary
pray(preɪ)
- ( when tr, usually takes a clause as object or an infinitive ) to make an earnest entreaty (to or for); beg or implore: she prayed to be allowed to go ; leave, I pray you
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pray(preɪ)
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berk60
Guest
From the Documents of the II Vatican Council it speaks of this worship;
“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.” (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)
So is that to be distinguished as a different kind of worship from worship of God?
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Monergistic
Guest
I will ask Mary and some other saints, all of whom have traversed the completion of this mortal coil. (Meaning they are deceased).
Mary and some other saints, what do you think, do you want me to pray to you? Can you even hear me?
I haven’t heard anything so far, but I will let you know if I do.
Hey, living person. OP. Can you promise me that when you die, you’ll be able to hear all the prayers that are directed at you for the rest of time, know people’s thoughts and feel their emotions, even if you don’t know these people at all? And at this point, how would you know either way?
And has it occurred to anyone that Mary doesn’t speak English? Sure, God heaven miracles, let’s make it happen because somehow it needs to happen. But what if it doesn’t really need to happen? What if that’s not her role? What if it never was?
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Indeed. We “worship” God and God alone. but we pay homage and give reverent honor and homage to the Blessed Mother.
If you honestly think that we, Catholics, worship Mary in the same sense as God, then you could not be further from the truth. I can see how one can come up with the same thoughts that you have, but without knowing Church teachings and history, it is very easy to take things out of the context that they were meant to be in.
Example…the Hail Mary…SOME Protestants see that as a form of worship to Mary, yet every word said in the Hail Mary comes straight from Scripture.
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Monergistic
Guest
Let’s do an imaginary brain mapping experiment. Hook you up to an fMRI, analyze some baseline behavior, then do a series of trials in which you offer different types of prayer.
In one trial, you offer “latria” to God. It goes to God, so of course it’s unique. In another trial, you offer “hyperdulia” to Mary. It goes to Mary, so of course it’s unique.
When you’re looking at your brain and how it’s functioning, however, what is different there? Surely your brain’s behavior is not identical from one to the next- is it? You’re supposed to be doing two different things.
But different how?
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campeador
Guest
Obviously a translation misunderstanding. Here is the quote and in context:
But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle (cf. Eph. 5:27), the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Devoutly meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church reverently penetrates more deeply into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse. Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and **when she is the subject of preaching and veneration **she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her lofty type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. The Church, therefore, in her apostolic work too, rightly looks to her who gave birth to Christ, who was thus conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that through the Church he could be born and increase in the hearts of the faithful. In her life the Virgin has been a model of that motherly love with which all who join in the Church’s apostolic mission for the regeneration of mankind should be animated. link
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berk60
Guest
I noticed that in the above text that worship was taken out and venerate was substituted but in essence it has the same meaning. From Dictionary.com:
Code:
venerate: comes from a Latin word meaning to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere. Defined as to hold in deep respect; revere; to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
From Webster’s:
venerate: to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference; to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion
Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, worship
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Its kind of like this…I tell you the sky is blue…you either accept that it is blue or you say that it is baby blue, royal blue, dark blue or even red.
We can only tell you that we do not “worship” Mary and worship God alone, but if you are unwilling to accept that, there is nothing we can to help you. If you told me that You name is berk…then I would accept that your name is berk. Make sense?
I can and do adore my wife, yet I do not worship her. I can revere the great soldiers that lost their life for this country but I do not worship them.
We do not worship Mary as a God or anyone but God. You either have to take our word for it or not.
Thanks for taking the time to actually try to figure this out. Tells a lot about you.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Isn’t it funny how our protestant and evangelical brothers go secular when talking about spiritual things…
1 John 4:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Why would we need to test the spirits?
Further, this alone admits:
Do you believe in spirits?
Do you believe there are good spirits and bad spirits?
How, then, are we to test these spirits?
1 John 4:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Why would we need to test the spirits?
Further, this alone admits:
- There are spirits
- These spirits interact with us
- There are spirits from God
- There are spirits not from God
- We are to test these spirits
Do you believe in spirits?
Do you believe there are good spirits and bad spirits?
How, then, are we to test these spirits?
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berk60
Guest
I understand more now. You highly respect Mary. I can relate to that because I really respect the Apostle Paul for converting from persecuting Jesus to preserving His Gospel unto death.Its kind of like this…I tell you the sky is blue…you either accept that it is blue or you say that it is baby blue, royal blue, dark blue or even red.
We can only tell you that we do not “worship” Mary and worship God alone, but if you are unwilling to accept that, there is nothing we can to help you. If you told me that You name is berk…then I would accept that your name is berk. Make sense?
I can and do adore my wife, yet I do not worship her. I can revere the great soldiers that lost their life for this country but I do not worship them.
We do not worship Mary as a God or anyone but God. You either have to take our word for it or not.
Thanks for taking the time to actually try to figure this out. Tells a lot about you.
Thanks for your insight.
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pablope
Guest
Praying, to pray, in its original meaning, is to ask, to make a plea…in the protestant context…it has taken a new and different meaning…it means to them the means of worship.
In catholic speak, it still means to ask, to make a plea.
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campeador
Guest
There was no substitution. Here is the original Latin:
- Dum autem Ecclesia in Beatissima Virgine ad perfectionem iam pertingit, qua sine macula et ruga existit (cf. Eph 5,27), christifideles adhuc nituntur, ut devincentes peccatum in sanctitate crescant; ideoque oculos suos ad Mariam attollunt, quae toti electorum communitati tamquam exemplar virtutum praefulget. Ecclesia de Ea pie recogitans Eamque in lumine Verbi hominis facti contemplans, in summum incarnationis mysterium venerabunda penitius intrat, Sponsoque suo magis magisque conformatur. Maria enim, quae, in historiam salutis intime ingressa, maxima fidei placita in se quodammodo unit et reverberat, dum praedicatur et colitur, ad Filium suum Eiusque sacrificium atque ad amorem Patris credentes advocat. Ecclesia vero, gloriam Christi prosequens, praecelso suo Typo similior efficitur, continuo progrediens in fide, spe et caritate, ac divinam voluntatem in omnibus quaerens et obsequens. Unde etiam in opere suo apostolico Ecclesia ad Eam merito respicit, quae genuit Christum, ideo de Spiritu Sancto conceptum et de Virgine natum, ut per Ecclesiam in cordibus quoque fidelium nascatur et crescat. Quae Virgo in sua vita exemplum exstitit materni illius affectus, quo cuncti in missione apostolica Ecclesiae cooperantes ad regenerandos homines animentur oportet.link
Maria enim, quae, in historiam salutis intime ingressa, maxima fidei placita in se quodammodo unit et reverberat, dum praedicatur et colitur, ad Filium suum Eiusque sacrificium atque ad amorem Patris credentes advocat.
And the Latin word praedicatur, which means:
praedic.atur V 1 1 PRES PASSIVE IND 3 S
praedico, praedicare, praedicavi, praedicatus V TRANS [XXXBO]
proclaim/declare/make known/publish/announce formally; praise/recommend; preach
praedic.atur V 3 1 PRES PASSIVE SUB 3 S
praedico, praedicere, praedixi, praedictus V TRANS [XXXBO]
say beforehand, mention in advance; warn/predict/foretell; recommend/prescribe;
And the Latin word colitur, which means:
col.itur V 3 1 PRES PASSIVE IND 3 S
colo, colere, colui, cultus V [XXXAO]
live in (place), inhabit; till, cultivate, promote growth; foster, maintain;
honor, cherish, worship; tend, take care of; adorn, dress, decorate, embellish;
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berk60
Guest
There is the Holy Spirit and there are Demons. That is why we are to test the spirits. these are the only ones that interact with us.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
It is a plural.
Plus, I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that says that there is only one Spirit. It says there is one Holy Spirit. But nowhere does it deny the existence of other spirits. In addition, the demons are evil spiritual beings. If you believe there are demons, why don’t you believe there are good spirits? And if the evil spirits interact with us, What is there to prevent the good spirits from interacting with us?
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aidanbradypop
Guest
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campeador
Guest
Where does it say that in the Bible?
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pablope
Guest
Where in the Bible does it say how the spirit is to be tested?
And who will do the testing…the individual (you or a the layman or a bible reading layman) or some ordained for the ministry?
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berk60
Guest
Test the spirit against God’s word.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Ah!
And the Word of God is spoken (By whom?), taught (By Whom?), heard, written (By Whom?). It is preserved by sound doctrine and taught with authority and confidence as it has been done since Pentecost by…
The Catholic Church!
What is the Word of God? How do you know what is the Word of God?
Where in the Bible does it say to test all spirits against the Word of God?
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pablope
Guest
How? Is there a process? What is the process?
And who does the testing? you by yourself? someone who just reads the bible? someone called to ministry(ordained)?
And how would you know if the spirit is telling the truth or telling lies? Would you be making that decision yourself?
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