Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[jrtrent]

Just another question…if we can pray for one another…as Christ commanded…why can’t those in heaven not pray for us too?

Isn’t Christ command also to be followed by those in heaven?

Maybe they can. All I know is that I don’t see in scripture either instruction or example to pray to those who have died; therefore, I can’t in good faith do so. That’s why the homily says:

“But that we should pray vnto Saints, neither haue we any commandement in all the Scripture, nor yet example which wee may safely follow. So that being done without authority of Gods word, it lacketh the ground of faith, & therefore cannot be acceptable before GOD (Hebrews 11.6). For whatsoeuer is not of faith, is sin (Romans 14.23).”

Not only do I not have scriptural grounds for asking the dead to pray for me, my church specifically teaches against the practice. I’m not saying what others can or can’t do, just that for me, to pray to the dead would go against conscience. The homily’s reference to Romans 14 is a reminder that Christians can have different opinions on some things, and not need to judge one another in the process.

5 One man makes a distinction between this day and that; another regards all days alike; let either rest fully content in his own opinion.[d] 6 He who observes the day, observes it in the Lord’s honour. Just so, he who eats does so in the Lord’s honour; he gives thanks to God for it; and he who abstains from eating abstains in the Lord’s honour, and he too thanks God. 7 None of us lives as his own master, and none of us dies as his own master. 8 While we live, we live as the Lord’s servants, when we die, we die as the Lord’s servants; in life and in death, we belong to the Lord. 9 That was why Christ died and lived again; he would be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 And who art thou, to pass judgement on thy brother? Who art thou, to mock at thy brother? We shall all stand, one day, before the judgement-seat of Christ; 11 (so we read in scripture, As I live, says the Lord, there is no knee but shall bend before me, no tongue but shall pay homage to God);[e] 12 and so each of us will have to give an account of himself before God. 13 Let us cease, then, to lay down rules for one another, and make this rule for ourselves instead, not to trip up or entangle a brother’s conscience. (Romans 14:5-13, Knox Bible)

 

[concretecamper]

There is a New Testament story in Mark 2 where our Lord heals a paralytic. The most important word in that story is “their”. Jesus forgave his sins and healed him because of THEIR faith. Since people in Heaven are more closely united with Christ…I would say their supplications are more efficacious.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[pablope]

Maybe they can. All I know is that I don’t see in scripture either instruction or example to pray to those who have died; therefore, I can’t in good faith do so. That’s why the homily says:

How about angels…do you believe they pray for us, those here on earth?

Not only do I not have scriptural grounds for asking the dead to pray for me, my church specifically teaches against the practice.

 

[jrtrent]

How about angels…do you believe they pray for us, those here on earth?

No, I don’t. But it’s an interesting question, and one I’ve never thought about. Do angels pray at all?

Hodge’s summary of what angels do:

“This Scriptural doctrine of the ministry of angels is full of consolation for the people of God. They may rejoice in the assurance that these holy beings encamp round about them; defending them day and night from unseen enemies and unapprehended dangers. At the same time they must not come between us and God. We are not to look to them nor to invoke their aid. They are in the hands of God and exercise his will; He uses them as He does the winds and the lightning (Heb. i 7), and we are not to look to the instruments in the one case more than in the other.” audiowebman.org/start/books/charles_hidge/vol_1/vol_0113.htm#03

But then begs the question…why does your church teach against the practice? Did your church make an infallible teaching on this?

My church’s reasons for teaching against asking Mary and the saints to pray for us are given in the homily I linked to previously. It is divided into three sections: 1) the necessity and power of prayer; 2) to whom prayer should be addressed; 3) what kinds of things and what persons we ought to pray for. anglicanlibrary.org/homilies/bk2hom07.htm

I would describe it as a considered teaching rather than an infallible one.

grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/begs-the-question.aspx

 

[roundcheese]

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;
that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
~John 3:16 (Douay-Rheims)

They are more alive than we are! How can one say they’re dead?

 

[aidanbradypop]

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;
that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
~John 3:16 (Douay-Rheims)

They are more alive than we are! How can one say they’re dead?

 

[pablope]

No, I don’t. But it’s an interesting question, and one I’ve never thought about. Do angels pray at all?

When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead…I offered thy prayer to the Lord.” (Tobit 12:12)

Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels[a] in heaven.

When in heaven, we are like angels…if we continue to pray in heaven…do you think angels can do the same?

And what did Jesus say what happens in heaven, who do angels do, when on turns away from sin?

Rev 8:

3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

The term prayer of the saints…do you think this includes all saints…those in heaven, those on earth and the angels too?

Are angels also saints since they are in heaven?

Hodge’s summary of what angels do:

 

[aidanbradypop]

How does he know? Is he making an infallible declaration? And why do you follow it?

So…there is a limit of what a person can pray and not pray for? Can you provide a verse where this states what the limits are?

If it not infallible…how can you tell if there is something erroneous in the teaching? Is it free or error?

Pablope,

You bring up wonderful points

 

[Attejohannes]

Regarding the prayers of departed saints my very Lutheran stand is a rock like and unsheakable MAYBE. When there is no unequivocal and clear Scriptural support or direct exhortation to ask their prayers, I remain politely aloof of this matter.

However, I know most certainly that I have two most wonderful heavenly intercessors: The Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:26; “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered”) and Christ himself (Romans 8: 33-34; “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”)

These two have never failed me.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Regarding the prayers of departed saints my very Lutheran stand is a rock like and unsheakable MAYBE. When there is no unequivocal and clear Scriptural support or direct exhortation to ask their prayers, I remain politely aloof of this matter.

However, I know most certainly that I have two most wonderful heavenly intercessors: The Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:26; “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered”) and Christ himself (Romans 8: 33-34; “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”)

These two have never failed me.

Indeed! I believe we all share that same belief! As PRmerger loves to state…that is very Catholic of you!

Are you politely aloof on the matter of the Trinity? It is not clearly stated in Sacred Scripture, but yet you agree with the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the matter. It is hinted at in Scripture and the same could be said for the prayers to the Saints. I gave many link with many verses to state as much.

Look at it like this…If I pray the Hail Mary…does God ignore my prayers? If I ask you to pray for me, does God ignore you? In the OP my friend stated that dead people do not pray for us nor do they hear us. Scripture states that they are more alive then we are on earth.

 

[jrtrent]

They are more alive than we are! How can one say they’re dead?

We say they are dead because they died. It’s a way of differentiating those living on Earth now from those who have completed their mortal existence here. An example of this is found in 2 Timothy 4:1, “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:”

 

[aidanbradypop]

We say they are dead because they died. It’s a way of differentiating those living on Earth now from those who have completed their mortal existence here. An example of this is found in 2 Timothy 4:1, “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:”

What IF…we are the dead and they are the living?

 

[Attejohannes]

Indeed! I believe we all share that same belief! As PRmerger loves to state…that is very Catholic of you!

Are you politely aloof on the matter of the Trinity? It is not clearly stated in Sacred Scripture, but yet you agree with the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the matter. It is hinted at in Scripture and the same could be said for the prayers to the Saints. I gave many link with many verses to state as much.

Look at it like this…If I pray the Hail Mary…does God ignore my prayers? If I ask you to pray for me, does God ignore you? In the OP my friend stated that dead people do not pray for us nor do they hear us. Scripture states that they are more alive then we are on earth.

Well. there was another thread on the scriptural basis of Trinity. I wrote there as follows:

"As an orthodox, you certainly know the Old Testament Trinity (the Lord as three angels visiting Abraham (Genesis 18).

In the New Testament there are several instances 1) in which Jesus and God the Father are mentioned as identical (John 1; Romans 9:5 etc) and 2) In which the Holy Spirit is linked with God the Father or Father and the Son (John 14: 16-17; the grand commission in Matthew 18:19; 1. Corintheans 3: 16). And, of course the Annunciation (Luke 1: 36) reveals us that while Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, He should be called as the Son of God.

Therefore there has been quite from the beginning an understanding among Christians that when we talk about God, we talk about three (uncreated) Persons.

While there was not any exact terminology regarding the Trinity before the Council of Nicea (the word Trinity, if I remember correctly, was first used by Tertullian in the beginning of the third century), the doctrin was there, all along. And the early Christians had no problems with it.

So far so good. As a practical Lutheran I have always considered that we should not bother ourselves too much with matters that have not been revealed to us. With our limited intellect we cannot penetrate the mysteries of God and we should be careful when we make dogmatic statements of matters that God has not deemed fit to make known (for example, the Filioque dispute). "

Even I am not so arrogant that I would say that anyone’s prayers are not heard. Look it that way: If it is not necessary or even recommendable to pray “hail Mary” God anyway hears your prayer and looks at your heart and your intentions and responds. When I do not think it proper to pray the virgin to intercede for me, She will love me all the more when She knows that this is not because of lack of love or respect to Her but out of the respect and love I feel towards her Divine Son.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Even I am not so arrogant that I would say that anyone’s prayers are not heard. Look it that way: If it is not necessary or even recommendable to pray “hail Mary” God anyway hears your prayer and looks at your heart and your intentions and responds. When I do not think it proper to pray the virgin to intercede for me, She will love me all the more when She knows that this is not because of lack of love or respect to Her but out of the respect and love I feel towards her Divine Son.

Asking for the prayers of BVM in no way take away respect from Christ. It only brings us closer to him!

When I was Southern Baptist, a preacher (we do not call them pastors in the south lol) said that we should never pray to anyone but God. Do not pray to Christ even for He is the one that offers our prayers to God. We should not pray to Christ, but rather in through Him.

 

[jrtrent]

[When in heaven, we are like angels…if we continue to pray in heaven…do you think angels can do the same?

And what did Jesus say what happens in heaven, who do angels do, when on turns away from sin?

I quoted Hodge as an example of one theologian’s ideas of what angels do, and it did not include prayer. I have not been able to find a systematic theology or a clear Bible passage saying that angels pray. Are you saying that rejoicing is the same as prayer?

You’ve asked a lot of questions, some of which are answered in the homily I Iinked to or in the full text of Hodge’s systematic theology. If you want more on angels, I suggest John Gill’s A Body of Doctrinal Divinity. pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_3/book3_02.htm

If it not infallible…how can you tell if there is something erroneous in the teaching? Is it free or error?

Our example in the Bible of trying to determine the truth of anyone’s teaching is to search the scriptures. No church and no person is perfect; they do their best to guide and teach us, and we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we’re being told is consistent with what scripture says. With respect to the homily in question, do you find something erroneous in what it teaches? What scriptural basis do you have for not believing the things it says?

I joined the church I did because I believe that its teachings are mostly scripturally supportable, but that doesn’t mean it has a lock on truth. There are other churches I could have joined without violating conscience, and there are good writers/teachers from many denominations that I have profited from. Hodge was Presbyterian, Gill was Baptist, and Pieper (another writer of a systematic theology) was Lutheran, and even though I’m Anglican I can benefit, despite some differences on some subjects, from all three. Like the Bereans, we just have to study to see what we can accept.

John Gill on Acts 17:11

And searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so: they did not dispute with, and cavil at the apostle, as the Thessalonian Jews first did, Acts 17:2 nor did they receive the word, right or wrong, or with an implicit faith; but they immediately betook themselves to reading and searching the writings of the Old Testament, to see whether the things which the apostle preached, concerning the Messiah, his incarnation, obedience, sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, were agreeable to them, or no; determining, if they were not, to reject them, but if they were, to embrace them, as they did; see John 5:39 and this they did continually day after day. They were neither backward to hear and receive the word, nor slothful to examine it.

[/quote]

 

[JonNC]

=Attejohannes;10582291]Regarding the prayers of departed saints my very Lutheran stand is a rock like and unsheakable MAYBE. When there is no unequivocal and clear Scriptural support or direct exhortation to ask their prayers, I remain politely aloof of this matter.

And this is an extremely well said Lutheran response. Even the confessions say this, in a way of speaking.
From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one?

However, I know most certainly that I have two most wonderful heavenly intercessors: The Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:26; “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered”) and Christ himself (Romans 8: 33-34; “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”)

Indeed! And if we know that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, then it seems fitting that we pray to the Father to listen to their prayers for the Church, knowing that, as Luke 15:7 says, Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Jon

 

[pablope]

I quoted Hodge as an example of one theologian’s ideas of what angels do, and it did not include prayer. I have not been able to find a systematic theology or a clear Bible passage saying that angels pray.

Okay…one’s idea…but the question you did not answer is…is he correct? Is what he is saying complete? You say you stick to the Bible…yet you go outside the Bible to present ideas about angels…so does this mean then…the Bible does not say everthing there is to know about angels?

What did the angel do here in this passage: When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead…I offered thy prayer to the Lord.” (Tobit 12:12)

Here is another you skipped:

Rev 8:

3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

The term prayer of the saints…do you think this includes all saints…those in heaven, those on earth and the angels too?

Are angels also saints since they are in heaven?

Are you saying that rejoicing is the same as prayer?

 

[Chiefsinner]

Here is a quote from Luther regarding Mary and saints

Quote from Martin Luther stating that some can make proper use of honoring the Saints and the Virgin Mary:

"I admit that some can make a proper use of honoring the saints and the virgin Mary; though it is seldom they do."

Sermon for the Second Sunday in Advent; Romans 15:4-13
EXHORTATION TO BEAR WITH THE WEAK
A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil of 1521

 

[jrtrent]

Okay…one’s idea…but the question you did not answer is…is he correct? Is what he is saying complete? You say you stick to the Bible…yet you go outside the Bible to present ideas about angels…so does this mean then…the Bible does not say everthing there is to know about angels?

I accept that there are lots of things I don’t know with certainty regarding the faith. Protestants recognize legitimate differences of opinion among denominations on many things, particularly concerning the sacraments, church government, and even whether salvation should be from a Calvinistic or Arminian perspective. Each believes his position is supportable, yet recognizes another’s right to come to a different conclusion and still be considered a brother in Christ.

Do we know everything there is to know about angels? No. In fact, some theologians have said that there is so little information that trying to have a doctrine of angels is almost futile. Sections on angels in most systematic theologies are short; the author says what he believes the Bible clearly lets us know about them, and that isn’t much compared to some other subjects. Some systematic theologies don’t have a section on angels at all.

What did the angel do here in this passage: When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead…I offered thy prayer to the Lord.” (Tobit 12:12)

A couple of other renderings:

“Tobit, when you and your daughter-in-law Sara prayed, I kept the remembrance of your prayer before the Holy One; when you, Tobit, buried the dead,” Christian Community Bible

“Tobit, when you and Sarah prayed to the Lord, I was the one who brought your prayers into his glorious presence.” Good News Bible

Tobit is not a book my church uses for establishing doctrine, and I don’t know how this passage impacts proper teaching on how or to whom Christians ought to pray. The text does tell us that Tobit and his daughter-in-law prayed to the Lord. What do you think it says with respect to this thread’s topic on asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us?

Here is another you skipped:

Rev 8:

3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

The term prayer of the saints…do you think this includes all saints…those in heaven, those on earth and the angels too?

I don’t know. No commentator I’ve read includes prayers of angels, if such exist, and some have specified that these are prayer of saints both on earth and heaven, while others restrict it to prayers of saints on earth. How do you see it, and how does it apply to the question at hand?

Are angels also saints since they are in heaven?

Men have been called angels, and maybe angels have been referred to as saints. I know I’ve heard the phrase Saint Michael, but I don’t see the word saint used as part of his name or title in scripture, so I’m not sure. Words can have different meanings in different contexts. For this discussion, I think angels and saints might be two different types of being.

“The Catholic Church believes that saints are ordinary and typical human beings who made it into heaven. In the broader sense, everyone who’s now in heaven is technically a saint. Saints are human beings who lived holy lives in obedience to God’s will and are now in heaven for eternity. The classification or title of saint, however, is a spiritual pronouncement that the faithful can be morally certain that this particular person is indeed in heaven; prayers to and from the saint are considered efficacious.” dummies.com/how-to/content/defining-saints-in-the-catholic-church.html

When the OP talked about Mary and the Saints, I think he meant human beings who have died and been recognized as saints by the Catholic church.

Is prayer limited to only asking for God for something? How about praying for thanksgiving, praying out of gladness, out out of happiness of heart…are these not prayers too?

And prayers of praises to God, are these not prayers also?

I’m just wondering about prayer as a means of communication. I know that we on earth are taught to pray. We don’t see God face to face, we can’t pick up a phone and call Him directly, so we pray. So I wonder if angels need to pray, or if they have a more direct means of communicating.

 

[jrtrent]

reply continued:

Sure, but this one you totally skipped:

Hodge’s summary of what angels do:

Quote:
[1]At the same time they must not come between us and God…[2]We are not to look to them nor to invoke their aid.

Question:
[1]Can you explain how an angel, a creation of God who are created good…how can they come between us and God?

[2] How does he know? Is he making an infallible declaration? And why do you follow it?

No person makes an infallible declaration. The best we can do is offer a considered opinion. Some opinions will have better support than others. I follow the teachings that seem right to me, to what I believe scripture is teaching. Hodge doesn’t make himself very clear on this, but I believe he is referring to not using angels as an intermediary between ourselves and God, not that angels are trying to keep us apart from God. On the second point, the homily gives several scriptures showing that we should look to God for our help, and to Him are we directed to pray by both precept and example. God may well use angels to carry out His will or to answer our prayers, but we go to God directly, and He determines the means He will use.

Thanks…but I know already about angels.

That is good to know, because then you can answer the questions you’ve posed and let me know, too.

But here is a question…how do you know Gill’s book is not free of error in what he tells you?

How do you determine truth? What is your basis? What is your standard to determine truth?

So the individual makes that determination of what is true or not? How can the individual prevent himself from being deceived by an angel masquerading as an angel of light?

What if one individual disagrees with the pastor? With another individual? What then?

I’m running out of time this morning, so need to combine and skip a few things, but the only answer I have for you is what I said above, No person makes an infallible declaration. The best we can do is offer a considered opinion. Some opinions will have better support than others. I follow the teachings that seem right to me, to what I believe scripture is teaching. That’s why I read the Bible and also a wide range of Christian writers from many different backgrounds and denominations. Some issues I don’t think I’ll ever, at least in this life, have certain answers to, and that’s okay–I have enough to keep me occupied in trying to better understand and perform my duty to both God and my neighbors. The OP asked why not pray to Mary and the saints, and my answer remains the same, that I have no scriptural warrant for doing so and that my church teaches against it. Whether it’s right and proper for someone else to do so is not my concern; it’s not something I can do in good conscience, and I don’t think that I will be damaged by restricting myself to addressing prayer only to God in the name of Jesus.

1 Samuel 15:22-23; Galatians 2:2

St. Paul had a revelation to submit his teaching…a sign of obedience…and an assurance from Apostolic authority.

And also see Acts 13, where he is ordained prior to going on his first missionary journey.

Sorry, but I’m missing the connection between this and my question to you about what errors you found in the Homily on Prayer.

But what good is what they teach…if it does not follow the example of Paul in gal 2:2?

Paul, an apostle, was being accused of teaching things different than those in Jerusalem. This could undermine his work, so he received a revelation to go there. His teaching was confirmed and the grace given him by God recognized.

I don’t quite see the connection between Paul’s circumstance and that of recent theologians. Are you asking if the writings of Hodge, Pieper, Gill, and so on have the approval of their churches?

The Bereans did not act on their own nor did they study in a vacuum. They were taught by Paul first…then they searched the Scripture. They had a base first laid down by Paul.

The point of the passage about the Bereans was not that they blindly accepted what Paul and Silas had to say, but that they gave it a chance, examining the scriptures, day after day, to find out whether all this was true, and many of them learned to believe. Paul wasn’t their base; scripture was. For me, Hodge, Gill, my own pastor, and others are not my base, scripture is, and I try to learn from another’s exegesis by seeing if what they say is agreeable to the Bible, praying for the help of the Holy Ghost in the process.