Why Organized Religion is a Problematic Way to Grow Closer to God.

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TriuneUnity said:
Awesome…must have been a blast. I don’t have a drop of German in me, but I’d love to vacation there for a few decades.
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Aber Zie kannen sprechten gans gut Deutshce!! Ist Richtig!!

Right about now through New Years is a really good time… lots of Bierfests and Weinfests…leading up to Neues Jahre… Just thinking about it makes me want to jump a jet and go back!! And I often think if I went back again…they would have to deport me to get out of the country… 😃

ANd “Oktoberfest” is just around the corner…😃
At least the Cardinals got it right by electing a German.
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AMEN BROTHER!!! 👍
 
TriuneUnity said:
You’ve never tried whisky with pasta? It’s actually not half bad. I agree wine is probably more appropriate.
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Hmmmm, whisky and pasta… how do you think “Single Barrel Jack Daniels” and Pasta would go together? 🙂 Sounds good to me… with a big cold glass of water back.

Ohhh, as a side note… If you ever find yourself in Southwest Florida in the Fall… around Oktoberfest time… the German American Club on Pine Island Road in Cape Coral, FL… puts on a week long Oktoberfest that is “fantastische”!! The real thing!!!
 
at_peace said:
Thanks for the discussion, you may continue amongst yourselves, I think any further attempt is an exersise in futility.
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The exercise in futility had begun before post #1 on this thread. Someone just brought it here to the Catholic Answers Forum and created a thread to have it discussed.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Awesome…must have been a blast. I don’t have a drop of German in me, but I’d love to vacation there for a few decades.

At least the Cardinals got it right by electing a German.
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A german very Catholic. dont forget that.
 
There is no “smothering bureaucracy” in Jesus Christ’s message of love and selfless sacrifice.

I too, hated the incredibly demanding high standards and the unattainable expectations that the Church established under Jesus’ guidance.

I left the Church to go it on my own and failed miserably.

Unfortunately, my failure did not only impact me, it crushed all those who love me.

I pray you can do it on your own! Unfortunately, there has never been another human being in the history of mankind who could.

It is a weak excuse to blame the human failings of the Church’s members for your desertion of Jesus.

Someday you will see the beauty of 2000 years of tradition. It is not a “smothering bureaucracy” but a beautiful set of guidelines, that has been perfected by the Holy Spirit over the ages.

Pray for enlightenment.

Mark
 
Many current religions, including Chrisitianity and its varying sects, originally sprang up in opposition to the organized religion of the day. Buddhaism arose out the corruption of Hinduism, Christianity out of that of the Jews, Protestantism was a response to the failings of the Catholic Church, and some of the newer forms of Chrisitanity sprang from stagnant Mainline Protestant Churches.
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Let me see if I can get this straight:

Whenever large groups of people assemble together and try to make a real coherent and enduring sense of their religious tradition and community experience so that its treasures and wisdom can be duly safeguarded and inherited by upcoming generations…they fall into corruption and error and damn the whole endeavor…

So now a smaller segment break off, attempt to purify the tradition but inevitably fall into the same hole, making the same errors. This process has been repeated [and presumably will be again] numerous times, involving multiple cultures movements and, therefore, millions of people.

In short no one religious “body” or “tradition”, in the whole of history, has ever really arrived at a proper grasp of itself and never will.

And from this we should conclude that the warranted response is that the single, small, practically obscure individual, numerically inferior to his former religious body and representing the maximum degree of fragmentation of his tradition, should set himself apart and somehow manage to take hold of that truth which history has proved millions before him couldn’t arrive at even with maximum degrees of intellectual and spiritual co-operation?

My point is, ultimately the if the “Church” can not find God (or substitute this with any kind of corporate approach to religion) why do you have any confidence that the individual can?

In my mind it demonstrates either an extreme degree of hubris or a very deep lack of confidence in the reality and power of God, or some kind of strange combination of both.
 
at peace,

How are you and your spiritual growth smothered by bureaucracy or power hungry people?
 
In regards to evil prelates and especially those who are power hungry, St. Peter Damian wrote a short book concerning simonists in particular, but which really addresses this question and proves that God’s grace is not smothered at all by such individuals.

The fact is, without organization, there is no unity (a sign of virtue and divine love) and there is no accountability or mutual support. The fact that sinners will abuse what is good is definitely deplorable, but that deplorable fact will be found among a society of people or among those practicing a kind of spiritual individualism–man is fallen and wounded.
 
Jordan_Francis said:
Let me see if I can get this straight:

Whenever large groups of people assemble together and try to make a real coherent and enduring sense of their religious tradition and community experience so that its treasures and wisdom can be duly safeguarded and inherited by upcoming generations…they fall into corruption and error and damn the whole endeavor…

So now a smaller segment break off, attempt to purify the tradition but inevitably fall into the same hole, making the same errors. This process has been repeated [and presumably will be again] numerous times, involving multiple cultures movements and, therefore, millions of people.

In short no one religious “body” or “tradition”, in the whole of history, has ever really arrived at a proper grasp of itself and never will.

And from this we should conclude that the warranted response is that the single, small, practically obscure individual, numerically inferior to his former religious body and representing the maximum degree of fragmentation of his tradition, should set himself apart and somehow manage to take hold of that truth which history has proved millions before him couldn’t arrive at even with maximum degrees of intellectual and spiritual co-operation?

My point is, ultimately the if the “Church” can not find God (or substitute this with any kind of corporate approach to religion) why do you have any confidence that the individual can?

In my mind it demonstrates either an extreme degree of hubris or a very deep lack of confidence in the reality and power of God, or some kind of strange combination of both.
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To this I can only respond: WELL SAID!! I sincerely doubt that I could have said it better… 👍
 
at_peace said:
Thanks for making my point on that so succienctly and clearly.

And, it’s the points that the Catholic Church HAS infallably declared itsself that are problematic for me. Some of them appear to be merely to maintain the Catholic claim to it’s exclusive right to call itsself “The One True Church” and perpetuate its bureaurocratic hold. Examples would be declarations regarding the Papacy being the Chair of Peter, claims that only the Catholic Eucharist is valid, claims that oral tradition dictates that a priest must be part of an unbroken line of succession.

Things like that aren’t really important to me, my spiritual growth as a Christian, but they are central to Catholic triumphantalism.
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So being a member of the Church established by Jesus is not important to you? Then you are not seeking God as you claim.
 
RobHom said:
Aber Zie kannen sprechten gans gut Deutshce!! Ist Richtig!!

Right about now through New Years is a really good time… lots of Bierfests and Weinfests…leading up to Neues Jahre… Just thinking about it makes me want to jump a jet and go back!! And I often think if I went back again…they would have to deport me to get out of the country… 😃

ANd “Oktoberfest” is just around the corner…😃

AMEN BROTHER!!! 👍
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It will be interesting to see what B16 is going to say about Luther after the supposed symposium goes on. From what I hear he is quite the Luther scholar. He’s probably the brightest theologian the papacy has had in quite a while.
 
TriuneUnity said:
It will be interesting to see what B16 is going to say about Luther after the supposed symposium goes on. From what I hear he is quite the Luther scholar. He’s probably the brightest theologian the papacy has had in quite a while.
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Yes it will. 😃
 
At Peace, I dont know if you left the thread but I hope someday you can see how important the Catholic Church is. It was started by Jesus to lead us all to the truth. I understand you may not like the rules and discipline of the Church at times but you must remember they are there for your good not the Church. Jesus left us the Church to find peace and Love and a place to be with him when we are in trouble, alone, depressed, It is the only place on this earth we can go and spend alone time with him in his house. Alot of times people in the church can upset you, but dont let them turn you away from your faith. I cant stress enough how much you are missing by not receiving the Eucharist. That is the living Christ here on earth. I would hate for you to miss the food for you soul, that we all need. I hope you reconsider your decision and find peace in your heart. But I really think you need the Church to stay close with God. I cant see how you can stay close to God and be separated from his Church. They are one. I will pray for you that you make the right choice.
 
at_peace said:
I think my biggest reason for ceasing my involvement with the Catholic Church, and my reluctance to join any other, is that organized religion inevitably is a flawed system of spiritual progress.
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But isn’t the individual pursuit of the Divine also a flawed system of spiritual progress?
People involved in churches and church organisations always succumb to the ordinary evils of bureaurocracy.
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And do not individuals always succumb to the ordinary evils that we are all subject to? Does rejecting organized religion decrease the likelihood that you will succumb to these evils? Or does rejecting religion increase such likelihood?

.
 
at_peace said:
I maintain that we can serve Christ effectively without the smothering bureaurocracy of the Roman Catholic Church. I assert that the structure of the Church often interferes with the original message of Jesus, of which one aspect was to simplify spiritual life away from the strangulating edicts and mandates of Judaism and the corruption of the Pharisees…
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In charity, can you tell me how exactly your spiritual life personally has changed since leaving the Catholic Church? Do you pray more, study the bible more? What do you believe is the central part of Jesus´s message that the Church he founded is smothering? I can´t see how anything you do outside of the Church can top receiving his body and blood at Sunday Mass. Regardless of how you see the heirarchy doesnt the Eucharist still draw you? Are you still an American even though the government is full of waste and bureacracy and corruption? Do you spit at the flag and refuse to have any part of being an American just because of what others do? I´ll be a Catholic even if the Pope himself sins gravely. Jesus founded the Church, he put a man in charge of it. That doesnt mean I will follow blindly, but it doesnt mean I will desert her either.
 
RobHom said:
Nein, mein Brudder!! BruderIch globische glaube eine eineWeiss Bier Lagermit Bratwurst is viel besser… Zie habiche niche uber uns!! or would that be “mir”?

I never thought whiskey and pasta went together,but a really good Cabernet…or a good Valipocella… ummmmm, “schmechts gut!!”

Was ist mehr **more better?**besser…eine guttes Rheinhessen! Und eine portion “spatzel”…ummmmmmm!!

😃 Right about now I wish I could figure out how to change my keyboard to “German”…and remember what I used to know, German-wise… I lived in Bavaria seven and a half years… uummmmmmmmmmmm, bratwurst and weiss bier…ummmmm!
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Corrections in red. 😃

Je prefere un vin rouge avec fromage. 😃
 
RobHom said:
I confess, that despite the circumlocution employed, I was off-put at first by the abbreviation/acronym…but I fathomed it out. Perhaps it is generational in application… maybe perhaps?🤷 But I’ve been a Catholic for 57 years and 11 months and 14 days…😃
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I thought it meant Sola Scriptura. Isn’t that what Catholics believe in? I’ve been Catholic 53 years 7 months and, well I stopped counting…
😃
 
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