Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

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tacdon said:
You’re going back to that is why we need one church.

The Catholic church does not have the historical evidence to prove who Peter’s successor was. The Catholic church also can’t prove from scripture that Peter was the first pope. The catholic church also can not prove that Jesus built the church on Peter. They might give some verses, but those verses are misinterpreted.
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So we’ve been asked to stick to saints.

Ultimately I hope you question the basis of your authority, because it’s not the Bible, but someone’s interpretation of the Bible.

So back to Saints, do you believe that God is incapable of utilizing Saints in heaven to aid in the prayers of the church?
 
tacdon said:
If the bible doesn’t contain everything that is needed then who is to say the book of Mormon or the Koran isn’t just another revelation.
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who said the bible was sacred scripture to begin with? What is the bulwark and pillar of the truth?

It is the CHURCH. The church which Jesus founded, the church passed on to us via the apostles who passed on Jesus’s teachings via scripture and tradition. First came the Church then came the scriptures. That’s how we know that the book of Morman and
the Koran are not sacred scripture.
 
tacdon said:
and the extra things the catholic church does in addition to what is written in the bible have how many fulfilled prophesies?

I am in no way advocating Mormons or islam, but when you add to the bible that is where problems start.
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the Catholics didn’t add anything to the Bible. The protestants took books out. In fact, the very first edition of the King James Bible had all the same books as the Catholic Bible.
 
I am sorry that I joined this discussion seeing that it is now completely void of any grace from any of us. It has turned into a bunch of pride filled people, myself included. I am very sensitive about non-Catholic misunderstandings of Catholic teaching and I should just stay away from these boards because they are becoming a temptation to sin and my actions are displeasing to our Lord.
 
meltzerboy said:
Catholicism is in keeping with Jewish law on this issue. Just as Catholicism believes in the Communion of Saints, Judaism believes in the Communion of the Righteous, both living and dead. That is why it is permissible to call on one’s deceased parents, for example, to pray for them; in fact, it is customary for Jews to visit a graveside on a holy fast day and pray in the company of righteous souls. This action has biblical precedence. One does not pray to one’s family or “beseech them” in the sense of expecting them to rise up; however, one can ask for their intercession since they have a loftier relation to G-d. The same applies to righteous, holy Jewish strangers who are alive (Tzadikim). There is Talmudic, Zohar, and even Torah justification for this since Moses, our greatest prophet, served at times as an intercessor between the Jewish people and G-d.
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Cool! Thanks for the info.

I find the similarities between Catholicism and Judaism, especially on this topic, fascinating. There’s a lot more in common than I realized.
 
Robyn_p said:
Cool! Thanks for the info.

I find the similarities between Catholicism and Judaism, especially on this topic, fascinating. There’s a lot more in common than I realized.
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Forgive me if I sound harsh but why would it be such a realization? Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles and disciples were all Jewish. Our roots are deep in Judaism. Many Christians behave as if there were no Old Testament or as if Abraham and Moses were Christians.

Some have sought to divide us through history and I have never understood how they were able to succeed.
 
tacdon said:
Why don’t catholics just pray to Jesus
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We do
t:
instead of communicating to saints to pray for them?
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Where does scripture prohibit asking the prayers of anyone, or particularly a righteous person to pray for us?
t:
Its not like Jesus can’t handle all our prayers. The evidence that Jesus is the mediator between God and man is in the scripture and it is easily and plainly understood.
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Then we shouldn’t be praying for each other. Which means there is a huge contradiction with that

Romans 15:30
Colossians 4:3
1 Thessalonians 5:25
2 Thessalonians 1:11

Who is inspiring Paul to teach us to pray for one another? It’s Jesus John 16:12-15
t:
However; the evidence that saints hear our prayers is very little and has to be stretched to make it fit.
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No stretch

Apocalypse (Revelation) 5:8
 
tacdon said:
What is the point of praying to anyone but Jesus? Jesus can handle all our prayers
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Several have made the point that your point that statement “Jesus can handle all our prayers” does not align with the practice of one Christian asking asking a fellow Christian to pray for their intentions.

Maybe I missed it, but I do not believe that you have not responded to those points.

What is your position on that? Do you think that we should not ask one another to pray to Jesus?
 
in_servitude said:
Several have made the point that your point that statement “Jesus can handle all our prayers” does not align with the practice of one Christian asking asking a fellow Christian to pray for their intentions.

Maybe I missed it, but I do not believe that you have not responded to those points.

What is your position on that? Do you think that we should not ask one another to pray to Jesus?
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Asking someone to pray for us on earth isn’t the same thing as asking a person in heaven to pray for us.

When we ask someone on earth to pray for us we know they hear us.

I said Jesus can handle all our prayers, which includes people on earth that pray for us. People in heaven do not hear us.
 
tacdon said:
Asking someone to pray for us on earth isn’t the same thing as asking a person in heaven to pray for us.

People in heaven do not hear us.
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Prove this with scripture.

Second, you may ask someone on earth to pray for you it doesn’t mean they will. But you might feel more confident asking your pastor rather than a stranger or the prayer group rather than a Facebook friend. How much more confident are we that asking a holy person in heaven that they will pray for us!

Again prove with scripture that people in heaven do not hear us.
 
tacdon said:
I said Jesus can handle all our prayers, which includes people on earth that pray for us.
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But if Jesus can handle all of our prayers (using “our” to strictly mean prayers you yourself pray), then why do you even need to bother asking people on earth?
 
tacdon said:
What is the point of praying to anyone but Jesus? Jesus can handle all our prayers
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Of course he can.

The problem is that you grow weary and do not pray without ceasing. The saints, on the other hand, can intercede for you without needing a nap.

Additionally, since they are already in heaven, they are truly righteous, and the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

All in all, I think you benefit by having these powerful prayer partners in your corner. 👍
 
tacdon said:
People in heaven do not hear us.
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The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture
  1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.
  1. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.
  1. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though. Of course, as God, Jesus did not need to speak face to face with Moses and Elijah, but because Jesus was also fully human, it makes sense that they would appear to him in a way that his human senses could understand.
  1. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example
“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)
  1. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation
“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.
 
tacdon said:
Asking someone to pray for us on earth isn’t the same thing as asking a person in heaven to pray for us.

When we ask someone on earth to pray for us we know they hear us.

I said Jesus can handle all our prayers, which includes people on earth that pray for us. People in heaven do not hear us.
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Based on what definitive Bible or Early Church Father’s writings? Or is that based on a post 16th Century special revelation to the founder of another re-invented religion?

If you can show a definitive prohibition, since the practice predates the Church, in Jewish Practice and of course we have the example Jesus Himself gave of the ability of those who have died in Matt 17;
1AND after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him. 6And the disciples hearing, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid. 7And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not. 8And they lifting up their eyes saw no one but only Jesus.
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If they are dead and cannot hear or know what is happening on earth, or in any way intercede for us, what were they doing standing next to our Lord. Would He not have shunned them from His site, rather than stand next to Him?

The Transfiguration also echoes the teaching by Jesus (as in Matthew 22:32) that God is not “the God of the dead, but of the living”. Although Moses had died and Elijah had been taken up to heaven centuries before (as in 2 Kings 2:11), they now live in the presence of the Son of God, implying that the same return to life can apply to all who face death and have faith.

So while one of the truths we see here which is upheld by the Catholic Church, that only God (Jesus being the second person of the Godhead) is worthy of Adoration, or Latria, those who are in heaven (even here the rightgous in the Bosom of Abraham) are worthy of Dulia, or honor, and to stand at the side of the Savior, Note nowhere does our Lord condemn them for wanting to build three tents (tabernacles) and honor them. The story does not condemn the honor given to them, but rather points out what the Church holds that the Position of Christ is Central because He is the Son of God. Honoring those He honors, as long as we do not replace Him with them is nowhere here condemned.
 
Jon_S said:
Prove this with scripture.

Second, you may ask someone on earth to pray for you it doesn’t mean they will. But you might feel more confident asking your pastor rather than a stranger or the prayer group rather than a Facebook friend. How much more confident are we that asking a holy person in heaven that they will pray for us!

Again prove with scripture that people in heaven do not hear us.
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I can prove it by the fact that you can’t provide scripture that does prove they hear are prayers.
 
Randy_Carson said:
The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture
  1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.
  1. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.
  1. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though. Of course, as God, Jesus did not need to speak face to face with Moses and Elijah, but because Jesus was also fully human, it makes sense that they would appear to him in a way that his human senses could understand.
  1. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example
“Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.” (Acts 9:40-41)
  1. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation
“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.
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You have provided nothing that says people in heaven can hear our prayers.
 
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