Why pray?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Christ said woe to anyone who hurts a child…

God is not to blame for man’s heinous inhumanity to man.

God​

• is said to be Almighty
• is said to be infinite in Goodness
• knows the hearts of all creatures
• is called “Saviour”
• is said to hate iniquity
• is well able to over-rule man’s will - & often does so
  God has been so definitely described, & in such detail, that there is no room for Him to plead lack of power or knowledge or goodness. If a man did not stop a kidnapping when he could, he would be punished as an accessory to a crime - & people would say that he thoroughly deserved what he got. God is not man: He is far more powerful; even the foulest & most revolting of criminals have some excuse for their abominations - it does not stop them being punished, or being regarded as thoroughly wicked. Paedophiles may often have been abused as children: they were not born as paedophiles; God cannot plead that excuse, or any other.

So

• either his attributes are not deserved - in which case they should not be believed in
• or they are real, but do not mean that he is Good, etc: in which case God’s idea of Good may be what we call Bad, & His Mercy what among men is called Cruelty
• or He used to be Good, but no longer is
• or He was hindered from helping by a stronger god
• or - who knows what ?
  God is no more active in the world than Baal - all of Elijah’s taunts in 1 Kings 18 are applicable to God; any argument which rescues God’s credibility, also rescues that of Baal:
• 1 Kings 18.21 And Elijah came near to all the people, and said, “How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Ba’al, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
• 1Ki 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, "I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD; but Ba’al’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
• 1Ki 18:23 Let two bulls be given to us; and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it; and I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood, and put no fire to it.
• 1Ki 18:24 And you call on the name of your god and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, he is God." And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
• 1Ki 18:25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Ba’al, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire to it.”
• 1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.
• 1Ki 18:27 **And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” **
• 1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.
• 1Ki 18:29 **And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded. **
• 1Ki 18:30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me”; and all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been thrown down;
• 1Ki 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD came, saying, “Israel shall be your name”;
• 1Ki 18:32 and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
• 1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering, and on the wood.”
• 1Ki 18:34 And he said, “Do it a second time”; and they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time”; and they did it a third time.
• 1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar, and filled the trench also with water.
• 1Ki 18:36 And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
• 1Ki 18:37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that thou, O LORD, art God, and that thou hast turned their hearts back."
• 1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
• 1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.”
  The God of Christianity is as ineffective as all the gods of paganism - & taunts against them for their ineffectiveness apply equally to Him; He is vulnerable to many of the same criticisms. A real God does not need apologists - He can act on His own behalf. That Christians have to find excuses for Him, is a very strong reason to reject the claims made for Him.

When the Jews needed a Saviour God, he was not there - He let Hitler gas them in their millions; just as He allowed 100,000 people to be slaughtered like animals in the Rwanda genocide. If that is salvation from enemies, what is abandonment to them ? Prayer to the Easter Bunny would be no less effective, for all the difference that prayer for help makes. God is God only because He is thought to be, & for no other reason; a religion based on the Easter Bunny would probably be far less harmful than any of the monotheisms. People don’t need belief in God to change their attitudes - only a decent psychotherapist; which makes prayer as a cause of personal change irrelevant; which makes prayer pointless. A lot of people’s miseries are caused by religion, & the solution, many have found, is to get rid of the religion.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

God​

• is said to be Almighty
• is said to be infinite in Goodness
• knows the hearts of all creatures
• is called “Saviour”
• is said to hate iniquity
• is well able to over-rule man’s will - & often does so
  God has been so definitely described, & in such detail, that there is no room for Him to plead lack of power or knowledge or goodness. If a man did not stop a kidnapping when he could, he would be punished as an accessory to a crime - & people would say that he thoroughly deserved what he got. God is not man: He is far more powerful; even the foulest & most revolting of criminals have some excuse for their abominations - it does not stop them being punished, or being regarded as thoroughly wicked. Paedophiles may often have been abused as children: they were not born as paedophiles; God cannot plead that excuse, or any other.

So

• either his attributes are not deserved - in which case they should not be believed in
• or they are real, but do not mean that he is Good, etc: in which case God’s idea of Good may be what we call Bad, & His Mercy what among men is called Cruelty
• or He used to be Good, but no longer is
• or He was hindered from helping by a stronger god
• or - who knows what ?
  God is no more active in the world than Baal - all of Elijah’s taunts in 1 Kings 18 are applicable to God; any argument which rescues God’s credibility, also rescues that of Baal:
• 1 Kings 18.21 And Elijah came near to all the people, and said, “How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Ba’al, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
• 1Ki 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, "I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD; but Ba’al’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
• 1Ki 18:23 Let two bulls be given to us; and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it; and I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood, and put no fire to it.
• 1Ki 18:24 And you call on the name of your god and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, he is God." And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
• 1Ki 18:25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Ba’al, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire to it.”
• 1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.
• 1Ki 18:27 **And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” **
• 1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.
• 1Ki 18:29 **And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded. **
• 1Ki 18:30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me”; and all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been thrown down;
• 1Ki 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD came, saying, “Israel shall be your name”;
• 1Ki 18:32 and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
• 1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering, and on the wood.”
• 1Ki 18:34 And he said, “Do it a second time”; and they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time”; and they did it a third time.
• 1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar, and filled the trench also with water.
• 1Ki 18:36 And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
• 1Ki 18:37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that thou, O LORD, art God, and that thou hast turned their hearts back."
• 1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
• 1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.”
  The God of Christianity is as ineffective as all the gods of paganism - & taunts against them for their ineffectiveness apply equally to Him; He is vulnerable to many of the same criticisms. A real God does not need apologists - He can act on His own behalf. That Christians have to find excuses for Him, is a very strong reason to reject the claims made for Him.

When the Jews needed a Saviour God, he was not there - He let Hitler gas them in their millions; just as He allowed 100,000 people to be slaughtered like animals in the Rwanda genocide. If that is salvation from enemies, what is abandonment to them ? Prayer to the Easter Bunny would be no less effective, for all the difference that prayer for help makes. God is God only because He is thought to be, & for no other reason; a religion based on the Easter Bunny would probably be far less harmful than any of the monotheisms. People don’t need belief in God to change their attitudes - only a decent psychotherapist; which makes prayer as a cause of personal change irrelevant; which makes prayer pointless. A lot of people’s miseries are caused by religion, & the solution, many have found, is to get rid of the religion.

Interesting post to read, thank you GG! I wonder if what confuses is not the “I AM WHO AM” who is, but rather all the concepts and notions we have about God etc. etc. that we do call “religion”. To my way of thinking, if God simply IS and “My Ways are not your ways”, then His Ways simply ARE. If God exists than all the reasons we don’t like it and He should not exist or exist differently somehow, cannot change the Reality. Reality simply is. Either God exists or God does not…and since no one gets out of here alive, one day we will know for absolutely sure.
Religion sure has created a lot of problems in our history and indeed in our own day…it is religion that needs to take a long hard look at itself often I think. Religion (from one aspect … oh dear “and here comes a chopper to chop off my head” ) is a human institution of people who herd together sharing common concepts re God etc., and hence if religion needs to take a long hard look at itself then that means people need to do so.
Presupposing God is, no way it seems we are able to get God to take a long hard look at Himself …of course we can have a temper tantrum and refuse our responses - even our belief. Won’t change God I am rather sure and certainly not send Him into non existence.
My take and two bob’s worth and just a statement of concepts and thoughts not necessarily at all always reflecting my personal beliefs.

But your Post was interesting as one point of view shared by many I am sure - and Alleluia Amen to your sign at the end of your post…Blessings and regards…barb

[sign]
All is well
All is well
And all manner of things will be well:thumbsup:
(St Julian of Norwich)
[/sign]

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Maybe Adam was just giving God a ribbing. http://bestsmileys.com/cool/1.gif

That snake hasn’t got a leg to stand on.

[Thank you, to whomever wrote that line.]

reen

…You are absolutely hilarious, Reen…I have tears in my eyes of laughter! I look at these posts, and I look knowing there has to be a witty response somewhere but get no further than that as I look and look and look and think and think and think…NOT A THING OCCURS!..and then you come out with something as clever and as funny - and as very obvious - as the above!!!
…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Read your post, Barb. Took the med and my eyes are closing.
Will reply on the morrow.

reens

No probs! Reens…sleep well and wake happy…

My favourite time of day is settling into my own bed in my comfy pj’s waiting for the meds to close my eyes and cut of consciousness completely!!! Makes life worth living! …one of those wondrous gifts of being alive …if I stayed at my computer until my meds took over, no way would I make it from computer to bed…

I remember Neil Diamond wrote a song donkeys years ago I quite took to and ran “thank The Lord for the night time”…then something about daytime being “the time of up up tight time”. I used to really rock along with that song …

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I just came from a Revival sponsored by the African Affairs Ministry.
How can the Sudanese Choir Sing with all that is happening in Sudan and Dafur? Because prayer takes us away from where the world, with all its bad news, would keep us.
We were invited to touch the hem of Jesus, like the woman with a hemorhage, along with Eucharistic Adoration.
Today was the first night of the two night revival. Tomorrow’s theme is “Getting a Renewed Attitude through the Beattitudes.”
Also known as the be/attitudes.

Today was the first night of the two night revival. Tomorrow’s theme is “Getting a Renewed Attitude through the Beattitudes.”
Also known as the be/attitudes./

There are dreadful things happening in some African nations!

Never heard or made the connection “be attitudes” before…thanks for sharing!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…Jesus made it all so simple to my mind…religion makes it complex. All the complexities of rules and regulations, isms andwhole documents re this and that etc. etc. does make religion very complex even completely too complex for the person in the street - I know, I’m one of them. Quite often in reply to the statement that I am Catholic I can get the answer “Its all too complex for me”…immediately Catholics dive into their “book of knowledge with address and reply” and have not heard at all what was said.

… …

**That is so true. Instead of a faith in a Person to live by, we have a religion with countless propositions & dogmas to worry about & tear one other over. Tick all the boxes but one, & you’re a heretic, so you can be outside the Church without knowing it: which is a fiendish piece of ingenuity; in place of Bread, we now have a stone. Churches are devices for ruining the work of Christ & bringing hatred where there was love, & warfare where there was peace. In that, they have succeeded fantastically well. “By their fruits shall you know them”, indeed. Only a Church could make assent to doctrinal trivia understood only by theologians more important than people. Churches herd people into tidy little boxes - Jesus destroys the boxes, & brings freedom to captives. Churches are obsessed with anatomising God, as if He were a corpse on a slab; Jesus is concerned with how people behave; so being a good Jew & fasting “unlike that publican over there” isn’t good enough; & neither is reeling off the contents of the Catechism or going to Mass.​

If the Church had had any say in the matter, its Founder would have stuck to the Pharisees, condemned tax-collectors & adultresses & Samaritans, & praised His disciples for offering to call down fire from Heaven on an inhospitable Samaritan village. It could not have invented Jesus - if He were its invention, He would be as narrow & merciless & unimaginative & legalistic as it has been; He would be the very kind of person whom He denounces in Matthew 15 & 23 & elsewhere.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

**That is so true. Instead of a faith in a Person to live by, we have a religion with countless propositions & dogmas to worry about & tear one other over; in place of Bread, we now have a stone. Churches are devices for ruining the work of Christ & bringing hatred where there was love, & warfare where there was peace. In that, they have succeeded fantastically well. “By their fruits shall you know them”, indeed. Only a Church could make assent to doctrinal trivia understood only by theologians more important than people. Churches herd people into tidy little boxes - Jesus​

destroys the boxes, & brings freedom to captives. Churches are obsessed with anatomising God, as if He were a corpse on a slab; Jesus is concerned with how people behave; so being a good Jew & fasting “unlike that publican over there” isn’t good enough.

If the Church had had any say in the matter, its Founder would have stuck to the Pharisees, condemned tax-collectors & adultresses & Samaritans, & praised His disciples for offering to call down fire from Heaven on an inhospitable Samaritan village. It could not have invented Jesus - if He were its invention, He would be as narrow & merciless & unimaginative & legalistic as it has been; He would be the very kind of person whom He denounces in Matthew 15 & 23 & elsewhere.

Hi GG…All these things which such as I (and in all honesty, I am not the brightest ‘house on the block’ just a very ordinary Catholic person in the street) find overwhelmingly confusing. For me it is all about the type of person that I try very hard to be, not always succeeding. And if I have doubts about my Catholicism, I simply run the Creed through my mind. Other than that all my money is invested in Jesus as Lord and in Him all things come together for me…and if He cannot sort me out, then for sure no one else will. I trust in Him solely to bring to my attention, whatever, what needs to come to my attention and to draw into my dreadful attention and focus what needs to be there…and also to provide all answers. And if I am proved wrong anywhere, I sorta shrug to myself “ah well must have had some sort of a reason” and move on while taking note of the “wrong” for future reference and attention - at least in hope. Something like all that. I think I can state it quite confidently and with honesty that mine is just a very simple way of discipleship for the very simple.

Here in Australia we have a dire shortage ofpriests that will worsen over time. So much so that in many parishes, weekday Masses have disappeared altogether and even Sunday Mass is under threat in the future. Many will have say only a monthly Mass. I was talking to a priest a few weeks ago about this crisis and he said something that filled me with sadness “Maybe the people will find God”. He is right I think. Religion has taken the place of God in the lives of many. The object of faith for them is invested in religion, rather than in God…although I know it is more complex than that and cannot really be put so simply.
Deprived by necessity of the most important elements to some people of religious practise, perhaps they will find God as a Presence Active in their lives? Nor is the fault of the people, rather of leadership. We haven’t come far at all from the times of Jesus and history unnoted is destined to repeat.
Truth of the matter actually is that at almost 9pm here I am yet to pray my mental prayer time and I can no longer concentrate - mind drifting to duty. Something comes to mind from the time I was very ill mentally - I came across a passage in Scripture “and when you have learnt to separate worth from dross”…and perhaps this is what we need to do - to separate worth from dross…not by our definition, but by that of The Lord…and then when we have separted worth from dross in His Terms…oh dear, now I have to rush off and try to find the quote in the Doay Reims …

On another thread someone made reference to something I had said as “relativism” and until I checked it up in a Catholic dictionary, I truly had no idea whether he/she was applauding or condemning me Actually the definition did cause me to frown (remember not the brightest house on the block!) and then a day or two later I read a very good essay on relativism. Haven’t put it all together yet and if I am meant to do so, then it will happen. As simple to me as that. I hang loose with it all and if Jesus is not the pilot on this plane, look out crash landing ahead!!!

I found it! Half expecting not to be able to do so. I have not looked at this quotation for what must be near on 35 years………it gave me a lot of hope back then as psychiatry was speaking Greek to me and I was so far gone in psychosis it truly leaves me speechless for a noun and adjective to describe……one thing I can say about the Douay Rheims translation – very impressive search engine………….
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=15&l=19&f=s#x

Jeremiah Chapter 15

18 Why is my sorrow become perpetual, and my wound desperate so as to refuse to be healed? it is become to me as the falsehood of deceitful waters that cannot be trusted. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord: If thou wilt be converted, I will convert thee, and thou shalt stand before my face; and if thou wilt separate the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: they shall be turned to thee, and thou shalt not be turned to them. 20 And I will make thee to this people as a strong wall of brass: and they shall fight against thee, and shall not prevail: for I am with thee to save thee, and to deliver thee, saith the Lord.

21 And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the mighty.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I just came from a Revival sponsored by the African Affairs Ministry.
How can the Sudanese Choir Sing with all that is happening in Sudan and Dafur? Because prayer takes us away from where the world, with all its bad news, would keep us.

What implications does this have ? Appalling things happen everyday, & are happening at this very moment; we can’t just ignore what goes on.​

It was all very well in the past for Christians in Europe who knew nothing of floods in Bangladesh, earthquakes in China, & other disasters far away; ignorance is a luxury we don’t have. A further complication is that people are far more concerned about social injustices than they once were. It would be unforgiveably callous to write things off as “God’s Will”; for instance, what Mugabe does in Zimbabwe is evil. Which makes his presence at the Pope’s funeral incomprehensible - would Radovan Karadzic have been invited ? The only difference, other than that Mugabe is a Catholic, is that Mugabe kills, starves & tortures his own people.

There’s a further problem - what C.S. Lewis called “connivance” . By being part of society, we are complicit in the abominations of our national governments: so what is the good of praying ? The Bible is very clear that the offerings & prayers of those whose hands are stained with blood are an abomination to God; are hateful to Him. When supposedly Christian governments engage in the arms trade - the UK supplied weapons to Russia *and *to Georgia - how can anyone in the exporting countries hope to be heard by God ? Ultimately, an awful lot of we have is the fruit of human misery So how can our prayers be heard ?

We were invited to touch the hem of Jesus, like the woman with a hemorhage, along with Eucharistic Adoration.
Today was the first night of the two night revival. Tomorrow’s theme is “Getting a Renewed Attitude through the Beattitudes.”
Also known as the be/attitudes.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

What implications does this have ? Appalling things happen everyday, & are happening at this very moment; we can’t just ignore what goes on.​

It was all very well in the past for Christians in Europe who knew nothing of floods in Bangladesh, earthquakes in China, & other disasters far away; ignorance is a luxury we don’t have. A further complication is that people are far more concerned about social injustices than they once were. It would be unforgiveably callous to write things off as “God’s Will”; for instance, what Mugabe does in Zimbabwe is evil. Which makes his presence at the Pope’s funeral incomprehensible - would Radovan Karadzic have been invited ? The only difference, other than that Mugabe is a Catholic, is that Mugabe kills, starves & tortures his own people.

There’s a further problem - what C.S. Lewis called “connivance” . By being part of society, we are complicit in the abominations of our national governments: so what is the good of praying ? The Bible is very clear that the offerings & prayers of those whose hands are stained with blood are an abomination to God; are hateful to Him. When supposedly Christian governments engage in the arms trade - the UK supplied weapons to Russia *and *to Georgia - how can anyone in the exporting countries hope to be heard by God ? Ultimately, an awful lot of we have is the fruit of human misery So how can our prayers be heard ?

…someone who is ‘cluey in the upstairs’ (respected famous person) said that in the future we will either be mystics or go round the twit. Twit fast approching:banghead:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi GG…All these things which such as I (and in all honesty, I am not the brightest ‘house on the block’ just a very ordinary Catholic person in the street) find overwhelmingly confusing. For me it is all about the type of person that I try very hard to be, not always succeeding. And if I have doubts about my Catholicism, I simply run the Creed through my mind. Other than that all my money is invested in Jesus as Lord and in Him all things come together for me…and if He cannot sort me out, then for sure no one else will. I trust in Him solely to bring to my attention, whatever, what needs to come to my attention and to draw into my dreadful attention and focus what needs to be there…and also to provide all answers. And if I am proved wrong anywhere, I sorta shrug to myself “ah well must have had some sort of a reason” and move on while taking note of the “wrong” for future reference and attention - at least in hope. Something like all that. I think I can state it quite confidently and with honesty that mine is just a very simple way of discipleship for the very simple.

Here in Australia we have a dire shortage ofpriests that will worsen over time. So much so that in many parishes, weekday Masses have disappeared altogether and even Sunday Mass is under threat in the future. Many will have say only a monthly Mass. I was talking to a priest a few weeks ago about this crisis and he said something that filled me with sadness “Maybe the people will find God”. He is right I think. Religion has taken the place of God in the lives of many. The object of faith for them is invested in religion, rather than in God…although I know it is more complex than that and cannot really be put so simply.
Deprived by necessity of the most important elements to some people of religious practise, perhaps they will find God as a Presence Active in their lives? Nor is the fault of the people, rather of leadership. We haven’t come far at all from the times of Jesus and history unnoted is destined to repeat.
Truth of the matter actually is that at almost 9pm here I am yet to pray my mental prayer time and I can no longer concentrate - mind drifting to duty. Something comes to mind from the time I was very ill mentally - I came across a passage in Scripture “and when you have learnt to separate worth from dross”…and perhaps this is what we need to do - to separate worth from dross…not by our definition, but by that of The Lord…and then when we have separted worth from dross in His Terms…oh dear, now I have to rush off and try to find the quote in the Doay Reims …

On another thread someone made reference to something I had said as “relativism” and until I checked it up in a Catholic dictionary, I truly had no idea whether he/she was applauding or condemning me Actually the definition did cause me to frown (remember not the brightest house on the block!) and then a day or two later I read a very good essay on relativism. Haven’t put it all together yet and if I am meant to do so, then it will happen. As simple to me as that. I hang loose with it all and if Jesus is not the pilot on this plane, look out crash landing ahead!!!

I found it! Half expecting not to be able to do so. I have not looked at this quotation for what must be near on 35 years………it gave me a lot of hope back then as psychiatry was speaking Greek to me and I was so far gone in psychosis it truly leaves me speechless for a noun and adjective to describe……one thing I can say about the Douay Rheims translation – very impressive search engine………….
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=15&l=19&f=s#x

Jeremiah Chapter 15

Thanks for answering so quickly ​

Reading your posts makes me think of Caryll Houselander, who wrote a book on the BVM called “The Reed of God”, which was published in 1944.

Sorry to hear things are so bad in Australia.

I have doubts all the time - my nightmare is that we may be in a meaningless universe which repeats itself from its formation to its destruction, & does so forever, ad infinitum. How do we tell whether we are in such a universe, or not ? This is where dogmas & creeds fall so miserably short: they are like chemical formulae - but they are not the chemicals; water is not the formula for water, & reading “H20” is no use to a thirsty man in a desert. It is no use for a theology to be logical & learned & intelligent & rational & thorough, if it bear no more relation to reality than a map of a non-existent world does to the “real world”. A Church that says the right things, but isn’t the right things, is not really a Church.

It’s 13.10 here - how’s that for a time difference ?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

God​

• is said to be Almighty
• is said to be infinite in Goodness
• knows the hearts of all creatures
• is called “Saviour”
• is said to hate iniquity
• is well able to over-rule man’s will - & often does so
  God has been so definitely described, & in such detail, that there is no room for Him to plead lack of power or knowledge or goodness. If a man did not stop a kidnapping when he could, he would be punished as an accessory to a crime - & people would say that he thoroughly deserved what he got. God is not man: He is far more powerful; even the foulest & most revolting of criminals have some excuse for their abominations - it does not stop them being punished, or being regarded as thoroughly wicked. Paedophiles may often have been abused as children: they were not born as paedophiles; God cannot plead that excuse, or any other.

So

• either his attributes are not deserved - in which case they should not be believed in
• or they are real, but do not mean that he is Good, etc: in which case God’s idea of Good may be what we call Bad, & His Mercy what among men is called Cruelty
• or He used to be Good, but no longer is
• or He was hindered from helping by a stronger god
• or - who knows what ?
  God is no more active in the world than Baal - all of Elijah’s taunts in 1 Kings 18 are applicable to God; any argument which rescues God’s credibility, also rescues that of Baal:
• 1 Kings 18.21 And Elijah came near to all the people, and said, “How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Ba’al, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
• 1Ki 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, "I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD; but Ba’al’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
• 1Ki 18:23 Let two bulls be given to us; and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it; and I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood, and put no fire to it.
• 1Ki 18:24 And you call on the name of your god and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, he is God." And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
• 1Ki 18:25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Ba’al, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire to it.”
• 1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.
• 1Ki 18:27 **And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” **
• 1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.
• 1Ki 18:29 **And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded. **
• 1Ki 18:30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me”; and all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been thrown down;
• 1Ki 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD came, saying, “Israel shall be your name”;
• 1Ki 18:32 and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
• 1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering, and on the wood.”
• 1Ki 18:34 And he said, “Do it a second time”; and they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time”; and they did it a third time.
• 1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar, and filled the trench also with water.
• 1Ki 18:36 And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
• 1Ki 18:37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that thou, O LORD, art God, and that thou hast turned their hearts back."
• 1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
• 1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.”
  The God of Christianity is as ineffective as all the gods of paganism - & taunts against them for their ineffectiveness apply equally to Him; He is vulnerable to many of the same criticisms. A real God does not need apologists - He can act on His own behalf. That Christians have to find excuses for Him, is a very strong reason to reject the claims made for Him.

When the Jews needed a Saviour God, he was not there - He let Hitler gas them in their millions; just as He allowed 100,000 people to be slaughtered like animals in the Rwanda genocide. If that is salvation from enemies, what is abandonment to them ? Prayer to the Easter Bunny would be no less effective, for all the difference that prayer for help makes. God is God only because He is thought to be, & for no other reason; a religion based on the Easter Bunny would probably be far less harmful than any of the monotheisms. People don’t need belief in God to change their attitudes - only a decent psychotherapist; which makes prayer as a cause of personal change irrelevant; which makes prayer pointless. A lot of people’s miseries are caused by religion, & the solution, many have found, is to get rid of the religion.

Interesting. You’ve found enough grievances to totally disavow your faith that you claim to have - as a Catholic. I feel no compulsion to defend my God. Okay, I guess I do if I’m being honest. Either you are professing a philosophical set of ideas, playing Devil’s advocate or have totally lost your faith. Maybe I’m just too ignorant to understand which one. That being the case, let me know where you are going with this. I would like to respond based on your answer.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Gottle of Geer,

I didn’t want to wait for your answer to my lost post Sorry, patience isn’t my thing this morning. I wanted to post my thoughts to your kind of “shocking” condemnation of God. And even if you were playing Devil’s advocate, I still think my points might be helpful.

My attempt is not to attack you, but to really explore the issues you brought up - for yourself to consider and for me as well. So, I’ve broken up your post (because of space constraints, but promise to include your actual quotes).

So here goes:
Gottle of Geer:

God​

•is said to be Almighty
•is said to be infinite in Goodness
•knows the hearts of all creatures
•is called “Saviour”
•is said to hate iniquity
•is well able to over-rule man’s will - & often does so

Would you please clarify for me the instances that God overrides man’s will? I’m guessing that you might be talking about the Pharaoh and his encounter with Moses, but I would like to know.
Gottle of Geer:

God has been so definitely described, & in such detail, that there is no room for Him to plead lack of power or knowledge or goodness. If a man did not stop a kidnapping when he could, he would be punished as an accessory to a crime - & people would say that he thoroughly deserved what he got. God is not man: He is far more powerful; even the foulest & most revolting of criminals have some excuse for their abominations - it does not stop them being punished, or being regarded as thoroughly wicked. Paedophiles may often have been abused as children: they were not born as paedophiles; God cannot plead that excuse, or any other.

I much prefer negative theology because we don’t spend so much defining God as to defining what He is not. Negative theology is a much more productive and open theology in my opinion. A problem arises when we compare God to man or man to God. It can’t be. I used to do this on the problem of Hell. I even left the faith because I couldn’t understand how God could allow Hell to exist and let people go there. I thought to myself – “If I wouldn’t let people go there, how can He” He must not care. He must be a terrible God. So, I abandoned Him. After years of following Buddhism, I had a spiritual experience in which God displayed His power. Time and space do not allow me to discuss this at length, but I do talk about it on my blog.

When we bring God down to human thinking we are forgetting one crucial point. We are finite and cannot fathom the deep mysteries that exist in the universe. We think we know best. We think we know how to run the world. We think we could run it better. We forget that people like Hitler and systems of government like Communism think they can and have done this. You can see where that’s got our world. You ever seen the movie, “Bruce Almighty”? If not, watch it. If you have, watch it again.
Gottle of Geer:

So
•either his attributes are not deserved - in which case they should not be believed in
•or they are real, but do not mean that he is Good, etc: in which case God’s idea of Good may be what we call Bad, & His Mercy what among men is called Cruelty
•or He used to be Good, but no longer is
•or He was hindered from helping by a stronger god
•or - who knows what ?

I would go with the last option – who knows what? Because in reality we don’t know – finite mind remember.
Gottle of Geer:

God is no more active in the world than Baal - all of Elijah’s taunts in 1 Kings 18 are applicable to God; any argument which rescues God’s credibility, also rescues that of Baal:

You are comparing one situation that encompasses a lot. We have to understand what’s going on at the time of this contest and try to understand the bigger picture.

Continued…

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

•1 Kings 18.21 And Elijah came near to all the people, and said, “How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Ba’al, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
•1Ki 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD; but Ba’al’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
•1Ki 18:23 Let two bulls be given to us; and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it; and I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood, and put no fire to it.
•1Ki 18:24 And you call on the name of your god and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
•1Ki 18:25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Ba’al, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire to it.”
•1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.
•1Ki 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
•1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.
•1Ki 18:29 And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded.
•1Ki 18:30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me”; and all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been thrown down;
•1Ki 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD came, saying, “Israel shall be your name”;
•1Ki 18:32 and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
•1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering, and on the wood.”
•1Ki 18:34 And he said, “Do it a second time”; and they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time”; and they did it a third time.
•1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar, and filled the trench also with water.
•1Ki 18:36 And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
•1Ki 18:37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that thou, O LORD, art God, and that thou hast turned their hearts back.”
•1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
•1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.”

The God of Christianity is as ineffective as all the gods of paganism - & taunts against them for their ineffectiveness apply equally to Him; He is vulnerable to many of the same criticisms. A real God does not need apologists - He can act on His own behalf. That Christians have to find excuses for Him, is a very strong reason to reject the claims made for Him.

Hmmm…well, you just showed that the God of Elijah showed His power and the lack of power of Baal. So, I don’t see how you can what you have now said. How can He be as ineffective when He destroyed the prophets of Baal? Yes, you’re right. God doesn’t need apologists to defend Him and He doesn’t need a mortal to accuse Him of things that the mortal cannot totally understand. I have no excuses for God’s behavior. He doesn’t need to answer to us. Though I may not understand it, I trust in Him.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Gottle of Geer:

When the Jews needed a Saviour God, he was not there - He let Hitler gas them in their millions; just as He allowed 100,000 people to be slaughtered like animals in the Rwanda genocide. If that is salvation from enemies, what is abandonment to them ? Prayer to the Easter Bunny would be no less effective, for all the difference that prayer for help makes. God is God only because He is thought to be, & for no other reason; a religion based on the Easter Bunny would probably be far less harmful than any of the monotheisms. People don’t need belief in God to change their attitudes - only a decent psychotherapist; which makes prayer as a cause of personal change irrelevant; which makes prayer pointless. A lot of people’s miseries are caused by religion, & the solution, many have found, is to get rid of the religion.

God was there. I don’t know why these tragedies occurred, just like I don’t know why millions go hungry every day, millions die of old age, millions die of disease, etc. We always focus on the big events and forget that every single day people are dying. In 2004 alone, approximately 3.1 million people died from AIDS around the world, 510,000 of whom were children – according to this site:

usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/News/aidsfaq.html

So, what are your solutions to these problems? Why focus on the deaths of people in a few events in history (which were horrible, yes) and cast a blind eye to the daily problem of death? Would you wave your magic wand and make it all better? If you simply zapped the bad people from doing bad things, wouldn’t God always be doing that?

There’s always someone to replace a murderer like Hitler. Do we learn anything as a race of people by letting God handle our lives? Would we stand on our own two feet and fight evil if we knew that God would take care of it anyway? These are some open-ended questions that I’m just saying out loud – for your benefit and mine.

The Easter bunny didn’t destroy the prophets of Baal, God did. The Easter Bunny didn’t heal leprosy, cast out demons and raise the dead, Jesus did. The last part of this is just incomprehensible to me. I don’t know the God you speak of. The God I know is real. Demons fear him, Satan trembles at the utterance of His name. He’s pretty real to me.

The “God is God only because He is thought to be” is a philosophically empty statement. You seem to be implying that God is a rather a figment of our imagination – a farce, an illusion. I guess my question is – do you believe that He is objectively real? One other thing I wanted to add: when I studied and practiced Buddhism, the focus on suffering was paramount.

That was the foundation of the Buddha’s teaching. It exists, it has a cause, there’s a path to end it and follow that path. This actually taught me a lot. The belief is that greed, hatred and ignorance cause suffering (translated differently by some) in the world and in one’s life. I have to say that I agree with that.

What matters is the path to end suffering – not expecting an outside force to come along and pull you up by your bootstraps, kick you in the behind and wave his magic wand. We’re expected to do something. We are to manage our world by peace and righteousness. We are to fight evil where we find it. We are responsible directly for our world. God has given it to us. We just have abdicated our responsibilities.

Okay, now I’m off my soapbox.

Peace…

MW

 

[DebChris]

What implications does this have ? Appalling things happen everyday, & are happening at this very moment; we can’t just ignore what goes on.​

It was all very well in the past for Christians in Europe who knew nothing of floods in Bangladesh, earthquakes in China, & other disasters far away; ignorance is a luxury we don’t have. A further complication is that people are far more concerned about social injustices than they once were. It would be unforgiveably callous to write things off as “God’s Will”; for instance, what Mugabe does in Zimbabwe is evil. Which makes his presence at the Pope’s funeral incomprehensible - would Radovan Karadzic have been invited ? The only difference, other than that Mugabe is a Catholic, is that Mugabe kills, starves & tortures his own people.

There’s a further problem - what C.S. Lewis called “connivance” . By being part of society, we are complicit in the abominations of our national governments: so what is the good of praying ? The Bible is very clear that the offerings & prayers of those whose hands are stained with blood are an abomination to God; are hateful to Him. When supposedly Christian governments engage in the arms trade - the UK supplied weapons to Russia *and *to Georgia - how can anyone in the exporting countries hope to be heard by God ? Ultimately, an awful lot of we have is the fruit of human misery So how can our prayers be heard ?

Do we turn a blind eye to the suffering or do we touch the leper?
Are we complacent or do we speak out against injustice?
If our speaking out leads to more atrocrities, perhaps we need to go underground as many during WWII did, hiding the oppressed in attics and even in the open with false Baptismal records approved by the Vatican.
No, we do not ignore the suffering of the world. He has no hands but ours. Rather we reach out to a small part of that world and help where we can.
And if God is all powerful, when we pray that He raise up a leader from among the powerless, will He not do so? If I pray that the dried breasts of the leader’s mother be filled that he might suckle, will the God of the Universe not do so?
Is it not God who inspired scientists in the development of Flubberbutter to help combat the effects of malnutrition?
Are some not called to stand before the abortion mills in silent protests, while others of us continually write our congressmen for passage of a constitutional amendment in which “every reasonable effort shall be made to protect the life and dignity of the individual from the moment of conception”?
So is God not dependent on our asking and our doing? And in our asking and our doing, how do we avoid being pulled into the quagmire of unforgiveness and despair?
Is that not we pray, accepting the yoke and sharing it with Christ?
I pray because I am anawin. I am powerless but He who dwells within me is omnipotent. Through Christ I can do all things. Without Christ I can do nothing for I am merely a branch attached to the vine which is Christ.
Now I go to be fed at His table, to pray the rosary before the Mass, to be part of His community of believers.

 

[steve_b]

God​

• is said to be Almighty
• is said to be infinite in Goodness
• knows the hearts of all creatures
• is called “Saviour”
• is said to hate iniquity
• is well able to over-rule man’s will - & often does so
  God has been so definitely described, & in such detail, that there is no room for Him to plead lack of power or knowledge or goodness. If a man did not stop a kidnapping when he could, he would be punished as an accessory to a crime - & people would say that he thoroughly deserved what he got. God is not man: He is far more powerful; even the foulest & most revolting of criminals have some excuse for their abominations - it does not stop them being punished, or being regarded as thoroughly wicked. Paedophiles may often have been abused as children: they were not born as paedophiles; God cannot plead that excuse, or any other.

So

• either his attributes are not deserved - in which case they should not be believed in
• or they are real, but do not mean that he is Good, etc: in which case God’s idea of Good may be what we call Bad, & His Mercy what among men is called Cruelty
• or He used to be Good, but no longer is
• or He was hindered from helping by a stronger god
• or - who knows what ?
  God is no more active in the world than Baal - all of Elijah’s taunts in 1 Kings 18 are applicable to God; any argument which rescues God’s credibility, also rescues that of Baal:
• 1 Kings 18.21 And Elijah came near to all the people, and said, “How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Ba’al, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
• 1Ki 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, "I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD; but Ba’al’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
• 1Ki 18:23 Let two bulls be given to us; and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it; and I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood, and put no fire to it.
• 1Ki 18:24 And you call on the name of your god and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, he is God." And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
• 1Ki 18:25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Ba’al, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire to it.”
• 1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.
• 1Ki 18:27 **And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” **
• 1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.
• 1Ki 18:29 **And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded. **
• 1Ki 18:30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me”; and all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been thrown down;
• 1Ki 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD came, saying, “Israel shall be your name”;
• 1Ki 18:32 and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
• 1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering, and on the wood.”
• 1Ki 18:34 And he said, “Do it a second time”; and they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time”; and they did it a third time.
• 1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar, and filled the trench also with water.
• 1Ki 18:36 And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
• 1Ki 18:37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that thou, O LORD, art God, and that thou hast turned their hearts back."
• 1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
• 1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.”
  The God of Christianity is as ineffective as all the gods of paganism - & taunts against them for their ineffectiveness apply equally to Him; He is vulnerable to many of the same criticisms. A real God does not need apologists - He can act on His own behalf. That Christians have to find excuses for Him, is a very strong reason to reject the claims made for Him.

When the Jews needed a Saviour God, he was not there - He let Hitler gas them in their millions; just as He allowed 100,000 people to be slaughtered like animals in the Rwanda genocide. If that is salvation from enemies, what is abandonment to them ? Prayer to the Easter Bunny would be no less effective, for all the difference that prayer for help makes. God is God only because He is thought to be, & for no other reason; a religion based on the Easter Bunny would probably be far less harmful than any of the monotheisms. People don’t need belief in God to change their attitudes - only a decent psychotherapist; which makes prayer as a cause of personal change irrelevant; which makes prayer pointless. A lot of people’s miseries are caused by religion, & the solution, many have found, is to get rid of the religion.

clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/2070.gifOh shoot, NOW what!

 

[tommiatkins]

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_1_60/ai_59021334

pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/healing_prayer_5-21.html

Some of the research into what actual benifit of prayer is is listed above.

In the Church backed research, god manages a 10% improvement, in the neutral research Prayer slightly adversly affects health.

We have all prayed, even myself for altruistic reasons and god has answered. He always answers.
Yes
No
Wait.

Yes means that the effect prayed for takes place: god willed it to happen. The Brain cancer was cured (by surgeons)

No means it was not gods will. The hidious suffering of an innocent is a test for them and their loved ones. we can look at Job as the stereotypical long suffering faith-tested person. but not perhaps at the thousands of his contemporys who suffered as much and more and prayed with great devotion, yet the stories had far more unhappy endings. The Brain Cancer was not cured by the surgeons and not by god either.

Wait means keep on praying, keep on beleiving. If you pray and pray and pray, then the answer will eventually turn into a Yes, or terminate in a No upon the devout’s death.

In short then we can see that Prayer is a fruitless waste of time, throwing human dignity and autonomy towards some magic fairy godmother who may respond to the clicking of our ruby slippers.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/2070.gifOh shoot, NOW what!

Heck - I’m going back to Buddhism if this is the case - that way I don’t have to believe in any kind of omnipotent being and I can shun all of them I don’t have to worry about which one is right cause they’re all impotent and non-existent anyway.

Peace…

MW

 

[steve_b]

Heck - I’m going back to Buddhism if this is the case - that way I don’t have to believe in any kind of omnipotent being and I can shun all of them I don’t have to worry about which one is right cause they’re all impotent and non-existent anyway.

Peace…

MW

Me thinks Gottle was having a bad day.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Me thinks Gottle was having a bad day.

Could be. He’s a really smart person and I hope he answers back on the thread. Love your signature by the way.

Peace…

MW