A
AlNg
Guest
The Protestant Reformation was more than a schism.
- Status
I agree, but that still doesn’t change that if the RCC separated from EO (as you suggested), then by extension the Protestant Reformation is also a failure of Eastern Orthodoxy.
To put it another way, imagine a tall strong tree with a single apple hanging from its branch, and that apple falls and another tree sprouts from which many apples fall bringing forth many new trees, had that first apple not fallen, from that first tree, a new tree wouldn’t have formed which then allowed for the possibility for many other trees to sprout up…
…probably not the best analogy, but (hopefully) you get the idea.
A
AlNg
Guest
I suppose that you can argue such, but the situation in 1400 - 1500 was more like this:
There were three major branches of Christianity - The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church. As time progressed to 1517 and into the 16th century, one Church, the Roman Catholic Church experienced a Protestant Reformation. The other two major branches: The Oriental Orthodox Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church did not experience a Protestant Reformation. The question is why was that?
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
The reason I feel I must is because the Catholic Church claims to be the church of the bible and claims that the earliest fathers like irenaeus support and does have church father quotes that seem to support it but I’m not sure if orthodox understand it that way or irenaeus words as such or if orthodox have other church fathers that support it. I believe the bible does not support the exclusive claims of either but if a church is most faithful to the bible and the church fathers too people should join it though even if it seems faithful to bible it could be proven still it is not faithful to the bible completely which one should give the option for people to think they may be saved but one only knows salvation is in the church unless proven. I think anyway that the churches are not faithful to bible completely as I do believe Jesus accepted all believers and He is fair He would not turn one away from Him who believes in Him and loves Him.
Last edited:
V
Vico
Guest
The Holy Trinity desires the salvation of all but it is not forced. It can not be forced since a person must manifest charity (a free will act) to receive the heavenly reward. A person is given free will and may use it to refuse salvation (sin against the Holy Spirit).
Last edited:
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
truthlovingorthodox:
A
annad347
Guest
Salvation is in Jesus. His church brings you to people who can help you understand and teach you to praise and worship Him but salvation is in Jesus.
Put your trust in Jesus, trust Him to lead you to His church.
Sounds like your looking for guarantees to salvation, and you can have guarantees by placing all your efforts in finding it in Jesus.
The church you want to attend is the one that’s going to help.you understand that, teach you that, help you to have a better relationship with God.
Last edited:
V
Vico
Guest
Vico:
truthlovingorthodox:
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
truthlovingorthodox:
Vico:
Last edited:
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
Thankyou but if the church does not teach salvation is in Jesus alone and not one church only it seems no better than another. Unless you mean I should follow the church which brings me closer to Godtruthlovingorthodox:
Salvation is in Jesus. His church brings you to people who can help you understand and teach you to praise and worship Him but salvation is in Jesus.
Put your trust in Jesus, trust Him to lead you to His church.
Sounds like your looking for guarantees to salvation, and you can have guarantees by placing all your efforts in finding it in Jesus.
The church you want to attend is the one that’s going to help.you understand that, teach you that, help you to have a better relationship with God.
K
kainosktisis
Guest
A bit of history that helped me on the journey:
From the Epistle to the Smyrnaeans written by St. Ignatius of Antioch ca. 107 AD:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
From the Epistle to the Smyrnaeans written by St. Ignatius of Antioch ca. 107 AD:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
I don’t follow that I believe it was a new tradition not from the apostles Jesus said call no one on earth your teacher. A bishop was just an elder and ruler and overseer of church Jesus said you are brethren not lords only a ruler in the sense of wanting to help not one to give orders about how one must follow God
Last edited:
K
kainosktisis
Guest
And yet they are called shepherds of the Church. Scripture informs that not all are called as such.
Last edited:
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
Yes because they have the gift as He have some to be apostles some pastors he didn’t say the pastors are apostles. There are no more apostles. They are shepherds not rulers over one actions
K
kainosktisis
Guest
There are successors to the Apostles as shown in Acts 1:
https://biblehub.com/niv/acts/1.htm
Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk c from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters, d the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”
18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
“ ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’e
and,
“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ f
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
https://biblehub.com/niv/acts/1.htm
Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas
12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk c from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters, d the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”
18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
“ ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’e
and,
“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ f
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
Notice Matthias had to have seen the Lord to be an apostle it was for the mission of going into all the world. Who is the successor of Matthias it is not mentioned
K
kainosktisis
Guest
Paul saw Him - but not as the others had.
And Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen & yet believe…
And Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen & yet believe…
T
truthlovingorthodox
Guest
Matthias is mentioned had to have seen the Lord when he did miracles and hear him preach so that he can preach to more people about what the Lord said
K
kainosktisis
Guest
Paul also saw him, but not as He’d walked this earth.
If you hold to that as a qualification, then why would the faith continue as no one later on would have the distinction of seeing Christ in the flesh that way?
But we see Him in the Holy Eucharist.
If you hold to that as a qualification, then why would the faith continue as no one later on would have the distinction of seeing Christ in the flesh that way?
But we see Him in the Holy Eucharist.
K
kainosktisis
Guest
From Acts 19:
11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. 19 A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. c 20 In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.
11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. 19 A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. c 20 In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.
- Status