Why should Mary be a stumbling block!

[po18guy]

I think Evangelicals understand that more deeply than Catholics. Afterall they are never afraid to ask him directly.

I certainly hope that you are situated in a free country.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Daniel, I thank you for sharing your views of this with me, but that still really does not address my question (forgive me if I have failed to articulate it in a more clear way), why should it bother non-Catholics that we Catholics turn to Mary, either in example or in prayer, if to us, Mary Points us to Jesus, why is this a bother?

I Worship Only God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, One God. I would never ever EVER place a creature above or even level with the Creator and that includes our Blessed Mother Mary, but as Jesus came to us through Mary, seems to make sense that I can (but dont have to) go to Jesus through Mary.

You chose not to go to Mary for help and that is fine and I have no problem with that, all I am asking is why do non_Catholics have problems if I Choose to as long as we Both reach the same goal,and that is JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR. Or did I completely misunderstand your response? (entirely possible for me )

anywayssss,Gods many blessings to you Daniel Marsh and may we both see each other one day in heaven.

Because we don’t see this pointing you to Jesus, we see you going after idols of mary and we know that idols are supported by demons, thus we are concerned that you are being lead astray by demonic spirits who can appear as an angel of light or truth.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Since you presume to teach us:

.

I stop reading your post with that first line because you presumed the wrong thing, we were asked why? and I gave my opinion, that it.

So, learn to allow the best in others, and maybe if one catches my eye, I will read your posts.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I am not a good debater but I don’t feel like studying right now, so here goes nothing. With the text out of context comment, I have to say that almost all the text in the bible serves a much higher purpose, that is why the bible can’t be taken completely literal and that is why the bible is much more than just a book with a story.

Second is that Jesus is God, and Mary (the mother of God) is still just a human. She is special becuase she said Yes to God. Asking her to bring us closer to her son and pray for us is nowhere near idoltry. If we ask mary to forgive us our sins, save us, have mercy on our souls, and all that, yea, it would be bad, but we as catholics don’t do that at all.

One thing though, is that the catholic church, of course, has sacred tradition. You can’t say well this…______… isn’t specifically stated in the bible so it can’t be true. Mary loved her son, and so she wanted the bible to be focused all on him and not on her. I honor Mary because she is the ark of the covenant. Because we all have different plans from God, there is no woman out their like Mary. No Mary, no Jesus.

That my 2 cents worth, but its probably something you have already heard, so my opinion won’t matter much.

Thanks,
Gabe

Gabe it is a good thing you are not a good debater, because I did not answer to debate. Learn to start from the premise of discussion before attacking. Titus 3:9 Basically, if you want to influnce people in this thread, you need only go to personal testimony, experience to demonstrate how your personal devotion for / to Mary leads you to Christ as Lord, God, Savior in your life.

If you want to improve your debating skills consider starting by reading

The Art of Deception: An Introduction to Critical Thinking : How to : Win an Argument, Defend a Case, Recognize a Fallacy, See Through a Deception, (Paperback)
by Nicholas Capaldi
amazon.com/Art-Deception-Introduction-Critical-Recognize/dp/0879754249

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I’m a new Catholic, and I can say with all my heart that I understand the Blessed Virgin now–and wonder why my Protestant brothers and sisters are SO afraid, even hateful, of her.:

We are not “hateful” of the biblical Mary. We just think you are going after a mary that has been turned into an idol or goddess.

Look into the book I recommed in my first post, it should be avilable by interlibrary loan.

look at all the titles that have been given to mary.

catholictreasures.com/cartdescrip/10259.html

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Why should Mary be a stumbling block? Maybe because you call her the Mother of God. That is just so wrong. Yeah I know all about the logical acrobatics (mary mother of jesus. jesus=god, therefore mary mother of god), but its just so wrong. like muslims already find it difficult that jesus is god, and that difficulty is compounded with the idea that God has a mother!

Many think “mother of god” means that Mary is the origin or source of God. The Council that framed this title was simply emphesizing the fact that Jesus is God. nothing more.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

If that is true, then Joseph was more saintly than mary. Or maybe he was gay. Otherwise how can you sleep with a pretty lady and not get an arousal. With an arousal how can you not touch the woman who is your legally wedded wife?

nah maybe he’s gay. or maybe he lost his equipment from some wierd carpentry accident.

Or Mary was Joseph’s second wife, and he was an old man who had lost the ability to stand at attention so to speak thus they were limited to other means of relations.

 

[lukewarm]

Or Mary was Joseph’s second wife, and he was an old man who had lost the ability to stand at attention so to speak thus they were limited to other means of relations.

That tends to be my thought, since Joseph is not mentioned during Jesus ministry we can assume he is dead and buried. I believe God chose Joseph to care for Mary and he was significantly older and consumating wasn’t much in his plans.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

as it did to me when i was a catholic. i found it extremely odd that mary got a lot more attention than jesus himself. it didnt feel right. jesus was supposed to be sweet, not somebody to avoid in favor of his earthly mother.

amen, that is exactly what we see when we look into your fishbowl.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

We ask her to pray for us, as with all the Saints. I do think some of the devotions can take time away from our relationship with Christ, the ONE intercessor. However, anyone who has ever lived had recourse to Christ. Thus, they still do, since God is father of the living, not of the dead. So, we ask them as well. They are in eternity, which allows them a little more prayer time than we have.

Christ’s peace.

even the CC says you pray “to / with” mary. so, don’t try selling the claim that you do not pray to her that just looks deceptive, even when you are not trying to be.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

As a Catholic-in-training and former Evangelical, I have to disagree with that statement. Being able to go directly to God or asking Mary to pray for us brings me to a much deeper relationship with God than going to God alone. Say, for example, you as a child ask your mother to ask your father for something does that somehow diminish your relationship with your father? Of course not! It just means that sometimes you want to ask your father about something but aren’t sure how to approach him about it so you go through your mother. That is how it is like when you ask Mary to pray for us. It isn’t like God doesn’t hear us. Just sometimes we don’t know what to pray sometimes so we ask out Blessed Mother to pray for us. As a Catholic does that mean you can never pray directly to God? Of course not! If you prefer to go directly to God then by all means keep on praying directly to him. Just because you don’t understand or believe in Mary’s intercession (or the saints as well) does not mean it isn’t true or that Catholics don’t have a deeper understanding of God. I’ve learned it is quite the opposite!
:twocents:

Hi Cathy, it is anologies like this one that makes us believe that you are placing Mary on equal or greater status then Jesus. A husband and wife are on equal terms, both are to sumit to each other, in fulness of agape. And, yes going through your mother does lessen your relationship with your father because by doing so, you are in fact showing your father a lack of respect, esp., when he has already said, no. A mother can ask the father something and he can still say no to her.

I find the claim that Jesus can not say NO to his mother to be disgusting and it does make Jesus less than God himself to think that God can not say NO to a creature, reguardless of whom she was on earth. In heaven we will become like angels, where earthly relationships cease.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think she clarified her statement.

.
newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm

Hi Mannyfit, the actions we see you all doing speak louder than words.

She asked a question about how we see this issue, and I gave my opinion.

It was not a question of how you see this issue.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yes, the book I recommend is bias. But, it answers the question of how we see your devotion to mary which is the subject of this thread.

And, I am sure the book you recommend is also bias, and likely trying to soft sell your views by saying something like we pray with mary, not to her. But, your books on devotion to her, and even your CC says you pray to her.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=catholic+catechism+pray+%22to+mary%22

Even your children are taught, "We pray to Mary because she is so close to God, and because she is so close to her Son, Jesus Christ. And so we say, "
cptryon.org/prayer/child/mary.html

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

If you really want to make this thread productive, give your personal testimonies that demonstrate how, why, when, where, what, etc., that your personal devotion has lead you closer to Jesus in biblical ways. Be specific.

 

[Abigail]

Could one of the reasons some protestants have trouble with the idea of asking Mary for her prayers is that she is a woman? Some protestants believe that women should be completely silent and submissive, and subordinate to men in all things as a form of devotion. It seems to me that they have replaced the authority of the Church and the Bishop with the authority of the male head of household, who then becomes God’s representative in the family and church - women are not consulted and, more importantly, are not allowed to teach or pray publicly. One can easily see how difficult it would be for such a person to see a WOMAN in a position where she would have influence or be petitioned for anything. I don’t know enough about this attitude toward women to know if there is any validity in my theory, but it seems like it might account some of the seeming emotional overreaction to Mary’s intercession. Any thoughts?

 

[Jordan_Francis]

If you really want to make this thread productive, give your personal testimonies that demonstrate how, why, when, where, what, etc., that your personal devotion has lead you closer to Jesus in biblical ways. Be specific.

Daniel,

I posted this a few pages back, dealing with how Mariology helps secure a deeper Christology.

Sinlessness
Catholicism understands the Virgin Mother of Christ to be signifying both the Church and the redeemed human soul. Her sinlessness is the first testament to this truth. The sin of Adam’s pride had become a disease infecting the entire core of human affairs and relations. Our relationships to one another were tainted when humanity, in Adam, tainted its relationship with God. Let us not forget that society was raised and built on the foundations of an increasingly rebellious and defiled nature. Psychologically, emotionally, spiritually and socially humanity passed on its defect in its original nature from one generation to the next. There was no hope apart from God’s grace. Mary’s sinlessness was not the result of her own virtue, but of God’s grace. He redeemed her through the sacrifice of Christ which, though occurring after Mary was sanctified, was a moment that draws all of history to itself and therefore can not be subjugated to time. Uniquely, she was chosen to receive the grace of Christ before it was radically made manifest to the whole world in the Gospel.
**Likewise, Catholics are reminded of their own soul, that their own virtue and holiness comes not from their own will, but rather from God who sanctifies them through grace. Like Mary, sanctification offers us freedom from the mess of a society whose corruption is so thorough that each succeeding generation inherits it without hope of having a clean slate. **

The Assumption
The assumption of Mary into heaven. Here the understanding of Mary comes to its most logical conclusion. Representing the redeemed human soul in the salvation drama, death can not corrupt her for death is but the mark of a fallen humanity. In her assumption the full effect of Christ’s own Resurrection and Ascension are made strikingly clear. In Christ all those redeemed will rise, will have their individuality and flesh sanctified in the beatific vision.

Nothing in Mary’s life can make proper theological sense without Christ. Any proper devotion to the Virgin Mother has the glorification of Christ and a deepening of faith in Him, in mind. **In Mary we find the pre-figurement of our own glorious future when the seal of our own redemption will be made manifest. **

Modern Catholics see this understanding of Mary as preserving the uniqueness of Christ. While many of the modern “new age” type trends try to paint Jesus as an eastern guru and try to explain that Christ is actually the “true inner self”, that we all will become a “Christ” much like a Buddha the Catholic understanding of Mary corrects that. If a Christian wants to look to their “true inner self” they should look to Mary who is redeemed by Christ.

**Mariology keeps a barrier around Christ’s divinity. Reminding us that while we share in His life, death and Resurrection, we can not identify ourselves with him theologically in the sense that we can identify ourselves with Mary. Mariology helps preserve Christ as Savior- a title that is increasinly being de-emphasized in modern culture. **

 

[AgnosTheist]

Just because someone asks Mary to pray for them in no way diminishes their appreciation of Jesus.

Then i would just say that

• evangelicals have a better relationship with jesus.
• catholics have a better relationship with mary.

im sure we could agree on this.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I beg to differ. We received Jesus Christ weekly at Mass, if possible we would go to daily Mass to received him. It doesn’t get more personal than receiving and taking Jesus into your mouth and fill you up with sanctifying grace. That bring the concept of Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ into action.

evangelicals believe that if 2 or 3 gathers in his name, then surely jesus is there with them. thats how they get their ‘feel-good-hour’. thats how they boost their spirituality.

Jesus is more personal to them because they go to him directly all the time. They dont need anybody’s saintly backup.

 

[b_justb]

Why should Mary be a stumbling block?

She shouldn’t be.

Explanation after explanation is given to the Protesting community and they refuse to accept the explanations. There is nothing anyone can do about that. The Protesting communities have given their reasons for not accepting what they have been told and offer their sincere concerns. Their concerns have been addressed and they still do not accept the replies. To further them in their un-acceptance, they then offer that the reasons given are demon inspired.

What else can be said?

 

[Mannyfit75]

If you really want to make this thread productive, give your personal testimonies that demonstrate how, why, when, where, what, etc., that your personal devotion has lead you closer to Jesus in biblical ways. Be specific.

You want a personal testimony? I shall give a somewhat brief. As you know I am a cradle Catholic. I practiced my faith very much until I join the Army. When I was in basic I prayed because of the stress. But when I deployed to Korea in 1999, I slowly move away from practicing my faith. I did go to Church but the desire to go disappeared in 2001. I was in Savannah area from 2001-2003. Then I was in Germany, I went to Church yet I still did not took it serious then I finally **stop going to Church **all together.

In between, I took time to visit my folks in NYC. There I often saw my mother pray the rosary as early as 4 AM in the morning. She also pray the Santo Nino prayer every Friday.

I went to Ft. Drum, NY, and deployed with them in 2005-2006. It was around this time I started to take my faith seriously. It was also this time that a Catholic chaplain ask me if I have consider the priesthood. I said I’ll get with him a week later. A week later I told him, yes.

It has been since April 2006 that I seriously return to the faith.

I believe this reversion of faith is my mother’s doing (her praying the rosary).

It took at least 5 yrs for me to returning to my faith. I believe my conversion had something to do with my mother prayer the rosary. She often told me she prays for me a lot, and I believe her prayers were answered.

Now you see me here, defending my faith. When my mother prayed on my behalf and ask Mary to petition on my behalf I find myself returning to Jesus Christ. My love for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament made me committed to my faith.

I thank my natural mother, and my spiritual mother, Mary for bringing me back to God.

Daniel,

You think that praying the rosary distract me from focusing on Jesus. Then how do you explain my return to the Catholic Church, and my desire to serve God, love God, seek God, and be with him for all eternity in heaven?

As you know, Catholic believed that the Blessed Eucharist when consecrated is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. My love for Jesus’ presence in the Blessed Eucharist is great. I dare not commit any grave sin that may hinder me from receiving my Lord and My God. I love Jesus, and without the prayers of my mother which included the rosary as well as the most powerful prayer of all (The Catholic Mass) I would still be a “Caferia Catholic” today.

I thank God for bringing me back, my friend. This is my personal testimony, as you can see, Mary is not stumbling block. She lead me to her Son, Jesus Christ!