Why should Mary be a stumbling block!

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maybe thats just you. i’ve heard some former catholics say the opposite.

we could easily say ‘to each his own’, but evangelicals are still flourishing with their ‘direct to jesus’ method.

so how can I not say that they have a better appreciation of jesus?
If you listen to “former Catholics” you receive only the “benefit” of their loss or lack of faith. They were not well catechized, and thus, not good spokesmen or spokeswomen.

Even atheism may flourish-that does not make it true! There were suicides and panic during the 1939 airing of “War of the Worlds”. Many believed it was the end of the world. Didn’t make it true, did it?
 
Mannyfit75;2717734]I think it is in error because private interpretation of the Scripture can be destructive just as Peter states,
What do you think you are doing when you read the scriptures and want to undertand them? You are privately interpreting them. There is no way around this.
“And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this, as he does in all his letters. There are somethings in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware least you be carried away with error of lawless men and lose your own stability.” 2 Peter 3:15-17
No doubt men have missinterpreted the scriptures. This is done in the marian doctrines.
The Bible ought to be read in the light of the teachings of the Church.
How do you do this? When you read certain passages of scripture that your church has not taught on how do you know you have the correct interpretation?
Fr. Corapi once said, a Protestant minister said that is it is ok to kill abortion doctors, because he said it is Biblical. Well, that’s the Protestant minister ''self-interpretation" of certain passages in the Bible.
This protestant minister was wrong for the mere fact it violates the commandment thou shall not murder.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church made this very clear as well:
110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
Good advice. Do you think a protestant can do this also?
111 But **since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.”**77
Not sure what this means. What do you think it means? How would you interpret it and apply it to scripture?
 
justasking:
Not sure what this means. What do you think it means? How would you interpret it and apply it to scripture?
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
We must pray first with the Holy Spirit before reading any Scripture, that way, we maybe filled with the same Spirit that inspired the Scripture in the first place.

I know a good prayer for the Holy Spirit. It goes something like this:

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in the the fire of your love.

V. Send forth your Spirit and they shall be created.

R. And you shall renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray. O God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the heart of the faithful, grant us in the same Spirit to be truly wise and ever to rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.
 
Alright dude, here’s the deal. Let’s just cut to the chase, shall we?

Do you really…REALLY…think that Catholics worship Mary? Or is that just your opinion? Do you think the Catholic Church, in all it’s wisdom, has a bunch of people behind locked doors at the Vatican saying to one another, “Shhhhhhhhh, shhhhhhh, we really do worship Mary. We just don’t want Protestants to think that. Now keep it down guys so the cat’s not out of the bag!” I guess it’s just a huge consiracy theory, isn’t it?
The bottom line is that if Catholics say they don’t worship Mary (which has been said no less than 6 million times on the board), and they really feel that way in their heart, why isn’t that enough for you Protestants? I mean seriously, I could have 100 statues and photos of Mary at my house and say 20 rosaries a day. But if I believe with all my heart that’s bringing me closer to Christ, shouldn’t Protestants applaud that? And last time I checked, a false idol is designed to bring you AWAY from Christ, not toward Him. Boy, if Mary is really a false idol, she really stinks at it:p
Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth! Great reply 🙂 How many times do we have to say that we DON"T WORSHIP MARY before it sinks in!? Obviously, it never will 😦 Great reply Goldy 👍
 
Catholics believe that too.

I don’t know how you could say that receiving the Body, and Blood of Lord into your mouth cannot be anything personal. My friend, Catholics believe in the Real Presence. At Mass, we received the Lord Jesus Christ himself, and it is PERSONAL. Must I repeat what I have already told you.
AMEN!!! There is no more personal relationship with Christ than to EAT His Body and DRINK His Blood, as he commanded in their bible. Catholic and Eastern Orthodox have done this faithfully since day 1. Unfortunately, as sincere as they are, the rest are just poseurs. I pray for them.
 
regular prayers i had no problem with. but 2 hours each week, marching into the church and doing novenas. damn.

anything can be justified by a ‘proper attitude’. even suicide bombing. thats why i cannot buy into that excuse.

i agree. but our filipino catholic culture shoves devotion into kids throats.
Agnos, you could always sign up for the Iglesia Ni Cristo and get programmed by a mysterious, unseen entity. Remember, the church which freely allowed you to leave will freely allow you to return. We pray for the day, as you are one of the few “opposition” 😉 who think before replying.

Christ’s peace be with you.
 
Dear Gentle People,

I have read this thread about Mary. Well, you people come with good arguments to express your opinions (eventhough a minority of you became quite offensive). If I may sum up what people have said, the Catholic says “We are not worshipping Mary”, the non-Catholic says “Yes you are”. The one that bothers me is not which argument is correct. If I may say to the Catholics, let them come with whatever idea they have whether we worship Mary or not. You have done a good job explaining your position. It is a waste of time if you spend too much time convincing (or winning an argument against) the non-Catholics regarding Mary. For me, when Jesus come to judge us, it will not based on whether you honor Mary or not. It will be based on how we as Jesus’ follower really follow Him. None in the scriptures says that it is wrong to pray for Mary’s help. Offcourse, people may come with interpretation of certain texts against this, but again it is an interpretation, and anybody may come up with his/her own interpretation, am I correct? It is OK for me that somebody honor Mary or not. The question is, have we behave as Christians or not. Whatever your position is, please do not harass others, please do not be sarcastic, and please do not accuse others as if we are the most right.

Secondly, I see that people debating about Mary as the mother of God. Some even point out that it will be a direct clash with Islam. If we think that saying Mary as a mother of God means God marry somebody, then we are putting God as the unlimited into our limited mind. We can not describe God in our humanly analogy, can we?

For me, why Jesus (Logos ho Theos) became a man is the promise of God himself. In Gen 3:15, God said to Eve and the snake, the seed of the woman will crush the snake’s head. So, the salvation from God will come as the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman definitely is also human. In this case, if it was God’s will that His Salvation would come as a human, then it was also God’s will that there would be a human female who would bear the Salvation of God. The Salvation of God is Jesus. And in accordance to God’s will, Jesus must come to us as human, and must be born by human female. Therefore, the existence of Mary, I believe, is in accordance to God’s will, and that makes her special. Again, this is one interpretation of the text. Other people may come into different interpretation.
 
Dear Gentle People,

I have read this thread about Mary. Well, you people come with good arguments to express your opinions (eventhough a minority of you became quite offensive). If I may sum up what people have said, the Catholic says “We are not worshipping Mary”, the non-Catholic says “Yes you are”. The one that bothers me is not which argument is correct. If I may say to the Catholics, let them come with whatever idea they have whether we worship Mary or not. You have done a good job explaining your position. It is a waste of time if you spend too much time convincing (or winning an argument against) the non-Catholics regarding Mary. For me, when Jesus come to judge us, it will not based on whether you honor Mary or not. It will be based on how we as Jesus’ follower really follow Him. None in the scriptures says that it is wrong to pray for Mary’s help. Offcourse, people may come with interpretation of certain texts against this, but again it is an interpretation, and anybody may come up with his/her own interpretation, am I correct? It is OK for me that somebody honor Mary or not. The question is, have we behave as Christians or not. Whatever your position is, please do not harass others, please do not be sarcastic, and please do not accuse others as if we are the most right.

Secondly, I see that people debating about Mary as the mother of God. Some even point out that it will be a direct clash with Islam. If we think that saying Mary as a mother of God means God marry somebody, then we are putting God as the unlimited into our limited mind. We can not describe God in our humanly analogy, can we?

For me, why Jesus (Logos ho Theos) became a man is the promise of God himself. In Gen 3:15, God said to Eve and the snake, the seed of the woman will crush the snake’s head. So, the salvation from God will come as the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman definitely is also human. In this case, if it was God’s will that His Salvation would come as a human, then it was also God’s will that there would be a human female who would bear the Salvation of God. The Salvation of God is Jesus. And in accordance to God’s will, Jesus must come to us as human, and must be born by human female. Therefore, the existence of Mary, I believe, is in accordance to God’s will, and that makes her special. Again, this is one interpretation of the text. Other people may come into different interpretation.
I think you bring up some great points, and I applaud you for what you said. My reasoning for posting earlier about this topic was to defend my Catholic faith. If people of other religions (even Catholics) think we worship the Blessed Mother, that’s their opinion and I respect that. But what if someone who has no knowledge of the Catholic faith goes into their Protestant Church and starts spouting off that Catholics are idolaters, cannibals, the Whore of Babylon, etc.? They are then influencing others on bad information, and bringing that many more people into error. Ignorance leads to hatred, and we all know that there are a lot of people who are ignorant of the Catholic faith and therefore bitter toward the Church. Therefore, we need to at least TRY to educate them on our faith in a charitable way. It’s like a Catholic politician who is pro-choice. That politician gets on television and says the Church got it all wrong on the abortion issue, and people don’t really need to listen to what the Vatican says. This can have a very devastating rippling effect on Catholics and non-Catholics. People begin to stereotype, and make false assumptions based on what one person said. We have a right and a duty to stand up for the Church and the TRUTH!!
 
Dear Gentle People,

I have read this thread about Mary. Well, you people come with good arguments to express your opinions (eventhough a minority of you became quite offensive). If I may sum up what people have said, the Catholic says “We are not worshipping Mary”, the non-Catholic says “Yes you are”. The one that bothers me is not which argument is correct. If I may say to the Catholics, let them come with whatever idea they have whether we worship Mary or not. You have done a good job explaining your position. It is a waste of time if you spend too much time convincing (or winning an argument against) the non-Catholics regarding Mary. For me, when Jesus come to judge us, it will not based on whether you honor Mary or not. It will be based on how we as Jesus’ follower really follow Him. None in the scriptures says that it is wrong to pray for Mary’s help. Offcourse, people may come with interpretation of certain texts against this, but again it is an interpretation, and anybody may come up with his/her own interpretation, am I correct? It is OK for me that somebody honor Mary or not. The question is, have we behave as Christians or not. Whatever your position is, please do not harass others, please do not be sarcastic, and please do not accuse others as if we are the most right.

Secondly, I see that people debating about Mary as the mother of God. Some even point out that it will be a direct clash with Islam. If we think that saying Mary as a mother of God means God marry somebody, then we are putting God as the unlimited into our limited mind. We can not describe God in our humanly analogy, can we?

For me, why Jesus (Logos ho Theos) became a man is the promise of God himself. In Gen 3:15, God said to Eve and the snake, the seed of the woman will crush the snake’s head. So, the salvation from God will come as the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman definitely is also human. In this case, if it was God’s will that His Salvation would come as a human, then it was also God’s will that there would be a human female who would bear the Salvation of God. The Salvation of God is Jesus. And in accordance to God’s will, Jesus must come to us as human, and must be born by human female. Therefore, the existence of Mary, I believe, is in accordance to God’s will, and that makes her special. Again, this is one interpretation of the text. Other people may come into different interpretation.
Thank you. You are very wise. 👍 I am better at prayer intentions that arguing, because some non-Catholics strain my sense of charity. WE can be reconciled to God and know the exact moment of grace. What do they have that is even close? As Father Corapi says. “Look at how well they do with just two Sacraments”. Let’s be thankful that non-Catholics don’t have all seven, or there would be less reason for them to consider our faith!

Christ’s peace to you.
 
Dear Goldy, I have a same feeling as you do if the non-Catholics throw out accusations against us. I am a Catholic too. Your experience is also happen to us here in Indonesia. Perhaps the intensity may not be as great as you may have. Given the numbers of the followers, Catholics in Indonesia is the greatest among all Christians (and all Christians are minority). If they think they are right and accuse us as the whore of babel, fine to me. You and others has spent a great deal of time explaining our position. So, the ball is in their hand. Do not expect that they will accept our positions (if they do they may become catholics right?😃 ). Please remember this!! They will not be the one who will judge us before God, right? It will be Jesus who will. If they think we are sinners, just don’t worry and be happy. Behold, it is to the sinners that Jesus come. You are absolutely right in educating them charitably. Keep in mind also, that educating them not only based on what we say. It has to be greatly on what we do. If general people see us doing and living as true christians as Jesus has commanded, then they can make their own mind on who is a better person, us or them?. If the non-Catholics also do and live as true christians also, I believe that they would stop accusing us themselves. So, keep on living under His guidance, my dear brothers and sisters. God bless you all.
 
Dear Goldy, I have a same feeling as you do if the non-Catholics throw out accusations against us. I am a Catholic too. Your experience is also happen to us here in Indonesia. Perhaps the intensity may not be as great as you may have. Given the numbers of the followers, Catholics in Indonesia is the greatest among all Christians (and all Christians are minority). If they think they are right and accuse us as the whore of babel, fine to me. You and others has spent a great deal of time explaining our position. So, the ball is in their hand. Do not expect that they will accept our positions (if they do they may become catholics right?😃 ). Please remember this!! They will not be the one who will judge us before God, right? It will be Jesus who will. If they think we are sinners, just don’t worry and be happy. Behold, it is to the sinners that Jesus come. You are absolutely right in educating them charitably. Keep in mind also, that educating them not only based on what we say. It has to be greatly on what we do. If general people see us doing and living as true christians as Jesus has commanded, then they can make their own mind on who is a better person, us or them?. If the non-Catholics also do and live as true christians also, I believe that they would stop accusing us themselves. So, keep on living under His guidance, my dear brothers and sisters. God bless you all.
With such great wisdom that helps keep us in charity, I hope that you are in Holy Orders. May the Peace of Christ be always with you.
 
Dear Goldy, I have a same feeling as you do if the non-Catholics throw out accusations against us. I am a Catholic too. Your experience is also happen to us here in Indonesia. Perhaps the intensity may not be as great as you may have. Given the numbers of the followers, Catholics in Indonesia is the greatest among all Christians (and all Christians are minority). If they think they are right and accuse us as the whore of babel, fine to me. You and others has spent a great deal of time explaining our position. So, the ball is in their hand. Do not expect that they will accept our positions (if they do they may become catholics right?😃 ). Please remember this!! They will not be the one who will judge us before God, right? It will be Jesus who will. If they think we are sinners, just don’t worry and be happy. Behold, it is to the sinners that Jesus come. You are absolutely right in educating them charitably. Keep in mind also, that educating them not only based on what we say. It has to be greatly on what we do. If general people see us doing and living as true christians as Jesus has commanded, then they can make their own mind on who is a better person, us or them?. If the non-Catholics also do and live as true christians also, I believe that they would stop accusing us themselves. So, keep on living under His guidance, my dear brothers and sisters. God bless you all.
Well said. Thank you for this!👍

God Bless you.
 
I am a Catholic, but a lot of your points don’t make sense to me.
  1. Since the first generations of Christians had no bible, are they in hell? No, you say? Well, then salvation is not dependent upon the bible, is it? Yet, you believe it is.
They didn’t have a bound book containing the old and new testaments titled “THE BIBLE”, no. But they did have old testament and new testament scripture.
  1. Did Jesus command a bible to be written? He did not. Yet you believe and act as if he did.
He commanded that witnesses to his teachings and sacrifice record for future generations.
 
I am a Catholic, but a lot of your points don’t make sense to me.
They’re not supposed to. They are directed mainly at Evangelicals who have ONLY the bible, and nothing else, of Christ. No Body. No Blood.
They didn’t have a bound book containing the old and new testaments titled “THE BIBLE”, no. But they did have old testament and new testament scripture.
The canon of the NT was not completed until the late 4th century. Problem is, virtually the entire world was illiterate at that time. In Christ’s time, only the Scribes, Pharisees and maybe a few others could read. Faith was, for the most part, oral tradition. Sacred scrolls were read in the Temple, but I’m talking about the early, pilgrim church here.
He commanded that witnesses to his teachings and sacrifice record for future generations.
I missed that scripture. I remember “Go and make disciples of all nations…” Nothing about writing at all. Rhetorical question: Did He know that the printing press, increasing levels of literacy and a bible in every hand would lead to personal interpretation of scripture and the shattering of His Sacred Body?

As Catholics, we have to strain to think of a church with no Tabernacle, no Body and Blood of Christ, only two Sacraments, no Priests, seven missing books of scripture, and maybe 10-500 years max of church history. Such a lack often doesn’t register with us, who benefit from 1977 years of continuous teaching-just as the incredible richness and depth of our faith sometimes doesn’t register with them. It is easier to have less beliefs than it is to have more. We must rely on God revealing His truth to them.

Christ’s peace.
 
Since you presume to teach us:

UNDERSTAND, if you will, that Catholics believe the bible is the inspired word of God. Knowing that, please explain:
  1. Just where in the blble, does it SAY that it is the sole rule of faith? It doesn’t. Yet, you believe that.
  2. Just where in the bible does the word “Trinity” appear? It doesn’t. Yet you believe in it.
  3. Since the first generations of Christians had no bible, are they in hell? No, you say? Well, then salvation is not dependent upon the bible, is it? Yet, you believe it is.
  4. Did Jesus command a bible to be written? He did not. Yet you believe and act as if he did.
  5. Why did Jesus, through Paul and John, teach that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood? Yet, you DO NOT believe that.
  6. In John 6, Jesus commands us to take, eat and drink His Body and Blood. Yet you DO NOT.
  7. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul teaches that we must do likewise. Yet you DO NOT.
  8. In John 21:25, it clearly says that the entire world would not contain the books that would be written about everything that Christ did. Yet you believe that bible alone is evrything.
By your own rules you appear as an idol worshiper because you have rejected the Body and Blood of Christ Himself and placed a book above Him. You defame the church which gave you the precious bible that you now curse it with.

You are still a fellow Catholic - just one who lost faith in Christ’s Body and Blood; one who lost five of the seven Sacraments; one who lost Apostolic succession; one who lost seven books of the BIBLE; one who lost 1977 years of unbroken tradition; one whose church has no leader and thus, no set meaning.

I am praying for you. I ask all others on this thread to please pray for you.
Ok, clearly some things need to be set straight:

Do not presume that all protestants say that communion is only “a symbol”. The Lutheran reformators, and Luther himself, made it very clear that Holy Communion IS in fact the body and blood of Christ, and this is what Lutherans believe.

And let me be equally abusive as you in your signature:

Catholics care more about the some woman they think produced the car than about the car itself.
 
“The canon of the NT was not completed until the late 4th century.”

Not true. I don’t know what sources you have this from, but it is clearly not true. NT Canon was completed in almost the very same form we have today by (if I remember correctly) the time of the Apologets (during the reign of Marcus Aurelius circa 160-180), and for the most part even earlier.
 
Hey 🙂

I must say I agree with the comments that I think you’re stretching Mary’s orders to the servants “just a little bit”.
However, there’s no doubt in my mind that it indeed WAS Mary’s wish that people look to Christ and believe in Him.

The thing that troubles me about devotion to Mary and the saints is that although I take your word for it not being worship, it comes awfully close.
One example - from the rosary:

“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!”

I’ve heard it said that devotion to Mary and the saints are the same as asking people here below to pray for you. And if that was that, the stumbling block would be smaller, but there’s two things I think we should consider here:

1: I don’t know about you, but if I would like one of my friends to pray for me, I don’t go over to her and say something like:

“Blessed Diana (or whatever the name) - my sweetness, my hope! I pray you to be my advocate before God in this matter. Show me God’s mercy, and show me Jesus, oh blessed sister”

I would say:
“Diana, would you please pray for me in this matter?”
Nothing more, nothing less.

So I think that the “it’s no different than asking an ordinary friend to pray for you”-reason holds water.

“When I have doubts, I turn to Mary and her examples of unwavering faith as a model for me to follow.”

I think we’re about to get to the core of the matter.
It is good and true to look to the rolemodels that Scripture provides, but in praying to these rolemodels, there seem to be an inherant danger of focusing on the possible intercession of these “others”, instead of focusing on Him who they, if we assume you are correct, will ask to intercede.
Can you follow my train of thought, or is my English too bad?
 
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