Why the Catholic Church Is Wise to Ban Condoms

[Nohome]

Maranatha:

By not reply to the logic, I guess you conceded the point.

??? I do no such thing.

Maranatha:

Do you think it morally acceptable to resort to cannibalism in order to avoid starvation?

What does that have to do with anything? And you accuse me of “not replying to the logic” and then you wish to morally elevate a latex sheath to cannibalism? How can I seriously consider something so silly?

Nohome

PS Your “99% effective” argument demonstrated a profound misunderstanding of statistics. Don’t believe me? Go to a casino that boasts a 99% payback. Drop 100 dollars into a machine and see what you get. I suspect you will get empty pockets and a better appreciation for 99% effective.

 

[Aquarius]

??? I do no such thing.

What does that have to do with anything? And you accuse me of “not replying to the logic” and then you wish to morally elevate a latex sheath to cannibalism? How can I seriously consider something so silly?

Nohome

PS Your “99% effective” argument demonstrated a profound misunderstanding of statistics. Don’t believe me? Go to a casino that boasts a 99% payback. Drop 100 dollars into a machine and see what you get. I suspect you will get empty pockets and a better appreciation for 99% effective.

I think medical stats using 99% effective mean that 99% of the people using a treatment over a given period of time were successful.

It does not mean that each instance of a condom usage had a probability of being 99% effective.

Those are two very different things.

(I keep going to that casino thinking I will walk away with $99. Funny. It never works out that way.)

 

[Nohome]

Aquarius:

It does not mean that each instance of a condom usage had a probability of being 99% effective.

Actually, that is exactly what it means. Each event is isolated from the other, they have no influence over the next event. If not, it would be impossible to get results like I posted earlier (where 123 infected people did not infect their partner).

The casino is a perfect example, each pull on the handle is a new game…)

(I keep going to that casino thinking I will walk away with $99. Funny. It never works out that way.)

I know what you mean.

Nohome

 

[Aquarius]

Nohome:

Actually, that is exactly what it means. Each event is isolated from the other, they have no influence over the next event. If not, it would be impossible to get results like I posted earlier (where 123 infected people did not infect their partner).

The casino is a perfect example, each pull on the handle is a new game…)

I know what you mean.

Nohome

I would disagree. If a treatment is found effective in a population, it is because the population gained the desired effect.

If one is studying individual condom usage instances, no population is necessary. Just a few eager volunteers.

We see similar stats about birth control. When a BC method is said to be 98% effective, it usually means 98% of women did not become pregnant in one year.

I absolutely agree that individual usage instances are isolated and have no effect on each other. Just like flipping coins. But these studies run far longer than would be necessary to simply dtermine the likelihood that a condom will pass HIV.

There can be two very different studies. One looks at the condom failure rate. The other looks at infection rates in a population over time. Those are related, but very different things.

Maybe someone has a general reference about this type of study?

 

[estesbob]

Nohome:

The “dignity of man” is an interesting notion in Africa. Women are considered property and they are often subjected to in marriage what we would call rape. Men are not “sex crazed” in Africa, but they do not have a Western attitude about sex, relationships and women.

Even christians in Africa are still culturally attached to old traditions. In fact, it is very common to hold a traditional wedding in conjuction with a Catholic ceremony. Westerners fail to appreciate that embracing the RCC does not necessarily mean abandoning old ways and traditions.

Africa is a big place, so my generalizations don’t hold for everywhere. There are very modern cities with very modern people in many places. That said, the Africa I saw was very poor, very uneducated and filled with a mix of new christianity and old tradition and superstition. The “dignity of man”, at least in how he treats women, is at the very epicenter of the AIDS epidemic.

Nohome

The Church wants to change the culture-you want enable it.

 

[Nohome]

estesbob:

The Church wants to change the culture-you want enable it.

Until you’ve been there, you have no idea what you are talking about. Sign up for a mission, hop on a plane and go see for yourself. If the RCC wishes to change the culture, they have failed miserably.

Catholic Mass with drums and dancing? It’s there. Why word got back to Rome about animal sacrifice at Mass. Priests and nuns quietly distribute condoms in spite of what the RCC teaches. Don’t believe me? Go see for yourself.

Nohome

 

[Aquarius]

Nohome:

Until you’ve been there, you have no idea what you are talking about. Sign up for a mission, hop on a plane and go see for yourself. If the RCC wishes to change the culture, they have failed miserably.

Catholic Mass with drums and dancing? It’s there. Why word got back to Rome about animal sacrifice at Mass. Priests and nuns quietly distribute condoms in spite of what the RCC teaches. Don’t believe me? Go see for yourself.

Nohome

I’d say the culture adopts and adapts the religion to itself.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Nohome:

The mosquito/AIDS link has been proven false many times over:

rci.rutgers.edu/~insects/aids.htm

The problem in Africa is IV drugs and sex, end of story. If you think telling people to abstain is the answer in a culture where women are property and human rights often don’t exist, you need to learn more about Africa.

Nohome

Actually, it’s never been proven in either direction. “a variey of blood-sucking insects were studied”. Best case using your link, is that it would be a rare occurance. (Undigested HIV blood from 1 victim regurgitated into the next vitim biten.) No study has ever been done on the various possiblities.

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Other than that, I basicly agree with you - BUT that’s why I think the condom campaign doesn’t make sense.

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The problem in Africa IS sex, drugs, slavery, war, and basic hell. To say “Use condoms!” is just a bad joke. Frankly, the men couldn’t care less if their prisoner or slave or maybe even their wife dies of AIDS and the women are not in a position to say no if the guy doesn’t want to put on the condom. Many of these men put their lives at risk every time they wake up in the morning, AIDS is the least of their daily worries.

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BTW, “Ortho” is a brand of birth control so it’s expected someone with such a sig to be spurt the birth control company line - "birth control solves everything!"

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Yeah. Sure. Slap a condom on and get world peace, medical care, loving relationships, a savings account, fertile lands, and safe drinking water. Yeah. Obviously.

 

[Bella3502]

estesbob:

The Church’s position also affirms the dignity of man. Too many organizations who purportedly fight AIDS`consider man(especually Africans) to be sex crazed individuals who cant control their sexual urges. Those, like the Church, who call on ALL of us to a life of sexual responsibilty are considered naive.

Some of them don’t control their sexual urges. That’s why so many young (12/13 year olds) are raped, develop HIV,give birth to HIV babies and then die making them orphans. Ignorance breeds ignorance. People need to make educated and informed decisions about their lives. And that includes the truth about various forms of contraception. Condoms do work. And they work better than NFP. Catholics are not supposed to use them… I accept that. But when abstinence is not a viable option, it is wrong to lie about the others.

 

[Zerith]

I was going to write some long response ranting about the ignorance of the Socialists and Social Liberals, but no, I won’t, why? This sums it up right here:

Condoms provide a false sense of security to those who use them.

And, of course, the phrase “Ignorance is Bliss” comes to mind.

God help those whose minds are manipulated by those seeking to control births and the very lives of children (Eg “Designer babies”.)

 

[Bella3502]

estesbob:

The Church wants to change the culture-you want enable it.

I disagree… I think the Church should FIRST work on establishing a true culture in which all Catholics abide by its teachings. I think it is silly to try and force Africans into adhering to rules about contraception, when the majority of Catholics (of child bearing years) do not. The “do as I say, not as I do” rule is wrong.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Bella3502:

I disagree… I think the Church should FIRST work on establishing a true culture in which all Catholics abide by its teachings. I think it is silly to try and force Africans into adhering to rules about contraception, when the majority of Catholics (of child bearing years) do not. The “do as I say, not as I do” rule is wrong.

"force"??? Really? No one is forcing Africans, Catholic or otherwise, to adhere to any sexual rules. The Catholic Church is teaching the same faith there as here. Sadly, there will always be those on any continient who do not listen. That doesn’t lessen the value of the teaching or thetruth to be found in it. To abandon those truths and teachings simply because many do not like to hear them. much less live them, is not logical or a service to anyone.

 

[Aquarius]

“force”??? Really? No one is forcing Africans, Catholic or otherwise, to adhere to any sexual rules. The Catholic Church is teaching the same faith there as here. Sadly, there will always be those on any continient who do not listen. That doesn’t lessen the value of the teaching or thetruth to be found in it. To abandon those truths and teachings simply because many do not like to hear them. much less live them, is not logical or a service to anyone.

The Church has lost the birth control issue in the west. Maybe it’s trying to avoid the same in Africa.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Aquarius:

The Church has lost the birth control issue in the west. Maybe it’s trying to avoid the same in Africa.

:ehh: ** One might more accurately argue that western people have lost the meaning of the birth control issue and are forcing the birth control agenda in Africa.**

 

[Aquarius]

:ehh: ** One might more accurately argue that western people have lost the meaning of the birth control issue and are forcing the birth control agenda in Africa.**

I agree westerners are pushing BC in Africa. And I see the Church opposing that. However, BC has been adopted everywhere people have had a choice. I think the Africans will do the same. Condoms, pills, IUDs, all of it.

When people everywhere reject a proposition it might be time to rethink that proposition. (Has the Vatican officially said the BC teaching is infallible?)

 

[Nohome]

Rob's Wife:

To say “Use condoms!” is just a bad joke.

Please read the thread from the start. Nobody is saying condoms are THE solution, but it is hard to deny that they are not PART of the solution. The ABC (abstain, be faithful, use a condom) campaign is one of the few successful AIDS programs in Africa, now the religious right want to use just “AB” and early indications are that this will have disatrous ramifications.

If you want to avoid the use of condoms, more power to you, but don’t kill the people of Africa because of a personal conviction. The evidence is quite clear that condoms have helped cutail AIDS in Africa.

Nohome

 

[Nohome]

Aquarius:

I agree westerners are pushing BC in Africa. And I see the Church opposing that. However, BC has been adopted everywhere people have had a choice. I think the Africans will do the same. Condoms, pills, IUDs, all of it.

When people everywhere reject a proposition it might be time to rethink that proposition. (Has the Vatican officially said the BC teaching is infallible?)

According to the USCCB, about 2-3% of American Catholics practice NFP. 90% of American Catholic women will use some form of ABC at some point in their life. For the RCC to push the BC agenda in Africa while the rest of the world ignores it is comical at best. When the people of Africa realize they were had, and the will, they will ignore Rome like the rest of the world.

Nohome

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Nohome:

If you want to avoid the use of condoms, more power to you, but don’t kill the people of Africa because of a personal conviction.
Oh please… no one is killing Africans by saying abstain and be faithful.

The evidence is quite clear that condoms have helped cutail AIDS in Africa.

**No it isn’t that clear to many people, including Africans. What is beyond a doubt clear, is that encouraging abstaining and faithfulness does improve/save lives and solves a good deal more than a bit of latex. **

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[Nohome]

Bella3502:

I disagree… I think the Church should FIRST work on establishing a true culture in which all Catholics abide by its teachings. I think it is silly to try and force Africans into adhering to rules about contraception, when the majority of Catholics (of child bearing years) do not. The “do as I say, not as I do” rule is wrong.

I agree, nice post. Welcome to the thread, you are an island of reason in an ocean of rhetoric.

Nohome

 

[Nohome]

Rob's Wife:

Oh please… no one is killing Africans by saying abstain and be faithful.

When they leave out “use a condom”, they most certainly are.
Rob's Wife:

No it isn’t that clear to many people, including Africans. What is beyond a doubt clear, is that encouraging abstaining and faithfulness does improve/save lives and solves a good deal more than a bit of latex.

Once again, I’ll invite you to read the links in this thread. It is hard to deny that condoms reduce the risk of AIDS.

Nohome

PS If it is “just a bit of latex”, why is the RCC so bent out of shape on the topic? Surely a “bit of latex” can’t stand between mankind and salvation.