Why the Catholic Church Is Wise to Ban Condoms

[Rob_s_Wife]

Aquarius:

I agree westerners are pushing BC in Africa. And I see the Church opposing that. However, BC has been adopted everywhere people have had a choice. I think the Africans will do the same. Condoms, pills, IUDs, all of it.

When people everywhere reject a proposition it might be time to rethink that proposition. (Has the Vatican officially said the BC teaching is infallible?)

Truth doesn’t change just because people choose to ignore it.

---

Yes, birth control has made many promises that many people have bought into.

---

But the tide is slowly turning, imo. More and more women are not as willing to be on a drug for most of their life to stop a perfectly normal function of their body. More and more couples are seeing the results of birth control from a negative view and viewing family and children in a more positive light than their parents or grandparents may have.

---

I don’t think Africans will feel they had “been had” by the Church teaching them it is best to abstain and be faithfull. Even if there are some. I think they will be far more who use a condom and die of AIDS anyhow feeling they were the ones who’d “been had”.

 

[Aquarius]

Truth doesn’t change just because people choose to ignore it.

---

Yes, birth control has made many promises that many people have bought into.

---

But the tide is slowly turning, imo. More and more women are not as willing to be on a drug for most of their life to stop a perfectly normal function of their body. More and more couples are seeing the results of birth control from a negative view and viewing family and children in a more positive light than their parents or grandparents may have.

---

I don’t think Africans will feel they had “been had” by the Church teaching them it is best to abstain and be faithfull. Even if there are some. I think they will be far more who use a condom and die of AIDS anyhow feeling they were the ones who’d “been had”.

Perhaps truth doesn’t change, but how does one know they have the truth? If the vast majority of married couples see no problem with BC, might it be time to rethink. These people are not ignorant illiterates who need to be led by the nose. They are intelligent, well educated people of good will. Truth may not change, but it might take some time to figure it out.

If the tide is turning on BC, then we will easily be able to see it reflected in birth rates. So far, they continue down.

When groups of Africans see that condoms are effective against HIV, and they remember the Chruch said they were not effective, then the Church may have a bit of a credibility problem.

(Is the Church BC stand infallible, dogmatic, and unchanging? Has the Vatican said it is?)

 

[mlchance]

Aquarius:

Perhaps truth doesn’t change, but how does one know they have the truth?

Shades of Pontius Pilate.

Aquarius:

If the vast majority of married couples see no problem with BC, might it be time to rethink.

If morality were a popularity contest, you might have a point.

Aquarius:

If the tide is turning on BC, then we will easily be able to see it reflected in birth rates. So far, they continue down.

So?

Aquarius:

When groups of Africans see that condoms are effective against HIV, and they remember the Chruch said they were not effective, then the Church may have a bit of a credibility problem.

The Church ought to change its teaching as a marketing ploy?

(Is the Church BC stand infallible, dogmatic, and unchanging? Has the Vatican said it is?)

Yes, it is. Yes, the Church has said as much.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Rosalinda]

The doubling of the Philippine rate of AIDS will not surprise observers of the African situation. In Africa, in those countries where the main strategy has been condoms and “safe sex” propaganda campaigns, the rate of HIV/AIDS has skyrocketed and shows no sign of slowing. Since the beginning of the AIDS crisis in the mid-1980’s, the Philippines has been subjected to intense international pressure to ease restrictions on condom promotion.

lifesite.net/ldn/2006/feb/06020308.html

Disease has spread in direct proportion to the proliferation of condom use. As for saving lives, lives have been cruelly lost because third world countries have been inundated with contraceptives at the expense of clean water, medical supplies and adequate nutrition. We had a doctor from Africa visiting Toronto, Canada a couple of years ago and she was angry with the western mindset which tied foreign aid to having this simplistic solution imposed on them while denying them the right to prioritize their needs for themselves. What good is a condom to a woman who is suffering and ostracized because of the stench of a vaginal fistula?

Finally, it must be said the Catholic Church does not impose she proposes; she respects the freedom of individuals to reject truth. It is the Church which upholds and defends the dignity of all her children by calling us to conversion and providing the means to live holy lives.

 

[Aquarius]

mlchance:

Shades of Pontius Pilate.

If morality were a popularity contest, you might have a point.

So?

The Church ought to change its teaching as a marketing ploy?

Yes, it is. Yes, the Church has said as much.

– Mark L. Chance.

Pilate may have had a point about how we know the truth. Many others have made the same point.

The views of vast numbers of educated people are far more than a popularity contest. Many clerics, theologians, and the overwhelming majority of educated Catholics consider BC OK. They have rejected the Church teaching.

Looking at birth rates will tell us if Rob’s Wife is correct in her notion that people are turning away from BC. Those with an interest in this will pay attention. Those who don’t will not understand.

The Church should tell the truth about the effectiveness of condoms as a marketing ploy. Anything else destroys credibility.

Where can I find official documentation that the Church position on BC is infallible, and dogmatic?

 

[Aquarius]

lifesite.net/ldn/2006/feb/06020308.html

Disease has spread in direct proportion to the proliferation of condom use. As for saving lives, lives have been cruelly lost because third world countries have been inundated with contraceptives at the expense of clean water, medical supplies and adequate nutrition. We had a doctor from Africa visiting Toronto, Canada a couple of years ago and she was angry with the western mindset which tied foreign aid to having this simplistic solution imposed on them while denying them the right to prioritize their needs for themselves. What good is a condom to a woman who is suffering and ostracized because of the stench of a vaginal fistula?

Finally, it must be said the Catholic Church does not impose she proposes; she respects the freedom of individuals to reject truth. It is the Church which upholds and defends the dignity of all her children by calling us to conversion and providing the means to live holy lives.

How would AIDs in the Philipines have spread without condoms? How do you know?

I don’t think the Church has a history of respecting the freedom of individuals to reject what it defines as truth. I think many of these people are called heretics and have been dealt with in a harsh manner.

 

[estesbob]

Nohome:

Until you’ve been there, you have no idea what you are talking about. Sign up for a mission, hop on a plane and go see for yourself. If the RCC wishes to change the culture, they have failed miserably.

Catholic Mass with drums and dancing? It’s there. Why word got back to Rome about animal sacrifice at Mass. Priests and nuns quietly distribute condoms in spite of what the RCC teaches. Don’t believe me? Go see for yourself.

Nohome

You have conceded defeat the Church has not.You beleive that evil must prevail-the Church does not. The idea that the Church should change its teachings based on geography is ludicrous.

 

[estesbob]

Aquarius:

I don’t think the Church has a history of respecting the freedom of individuals to reject what it defines as truth. I think many of these people are called heretics and have been dealt with in a harsh manner.

You contradit yourself. you say that the Church is naive by preaching abstinence since the culture wont support it BUT OTH complain that people dont use condoms becuase the Cuurch preaches against it. You cant have it both ways. The truth is that if people in Afrcia or anywhere else in the world adhere to the Churchs teachings they arent goting to get STDs.

 

[mlchance]

Aquarius:

The views of vast numbers of educated people are far more than a popularity contest. Many clerics, theologians, and the overwhelming majority of educated Catholics consider BC OK. They have rejected the Church teaching.

Logical fallacies: appeal to belief and appeal to popularity, at a minimum.

Aquarius:

The Church should tell the truth about the effectiveness of condoms as a marketing ploy. Anything else destroys credibility.

I’ve not read any official statement from the Church stating that condoms cannot be an effective means of preventing the transmission of disease. Need a link to a page explaining the straw man?

Aquarius:

Where can I find official documentation that the Church position on BC is infallible, and dogmatic?

Check Google. It’s a wonderful tool.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Aquarius]

estesbob:

You contradit yourself. you say that the Church is naive by preaching abstinence since the culture wont support it BUT OTH complain that people dont use condoms becuase the Cuurch preaches against it. You cant have it both ways. The truth is that if people in Afrcia or anywhere else in the world adhere to the Churchs teachings they arent goting to get STDs.

I said nothing about the Church being naive. I think the people in charge know exactly what the facts are.

I have not said people don’t use condoms because the Church preaches against it. I said people will question the credibility of the Church when they learn that condoms are effective.

People may not get HIV if they adhere to the Church’s teachings. But people have not adhered for the last 2,000 years, so is it reasonable to think those teachings will be effective now?

 

[Aquarius]

mlchance:

Logical fallacies: appeal to belief and appeal to popularity, at a minimum.

I’ve not read any official statement from the Church stating that condoms cannot be an effective means of preventing the transmission of disease. Need a link to a page explaining the straw man?

Check Google. It’s a wonderful tool.

– Mark L. Chance.

1. No fallacy since no argument was presented. Simply a statement that many say BC is OK. Do you dispute that many say BC is OK? Do you dispute many have rejected Church teachings?
2. A few months ago a Cardinal (Vatican I think) said condoms were not effective in reducing HIV. Are condoms effective in reducing HIV? guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html
3. I take it you don’t know how or where the Vatican said Church teachings on BC are infallible and dogmatic. OK. Does anyone know where that is documented?

 

[Bella3502]

“force”??? Really? No one is forcing Africans, Catholic or otherwise, to adhere to any sexual rules. The Catholic Church is teaching the same faith there as here. Sadly, there will always be those on any continient who do not listen. That doesn’t lessen the value of the teaching or thetruth to be found in it. To abandon those truths and teachings simply because many (the overwhelming majority)do not like to hear them. much less live them, is not logical or a service to anyone.

 

[Nohome]

estesbob:

You have conceded defeat the Church has not.You beleive that evil must prevail-the Church does not. The idea that the Church should change its teachings based on geography is ludicrous.

More rhetoric. I gave you facts, I gave you links, I’ve shared personal experience. Your response is “blah, blah, blah”.

I have not conceded defeat and while I haven’t said the Church should change its teachings based on geography, that is precisely what is occuring.

Here is my stand, plain & simple:

Condoms can reduce the risk of AIDS.
Condoms are part of the AIDS solution in Africa.
The RCC is wrong to deny this.

Now, if you wish to debate this, give me some facts, some links. Otherwise you are just making noise.

Nohome

 

[estesbob]

Nohome:

More rhetoric. I gave you facts, I gave you links, I’ve shared personal experience. Your response is “blah, blah, blah”.

I have not conceded defeat and while I haven’t said the Church should change its teachings based on geography, that is precisely what is occuring.

Here is my stand, plain & simple:

Condoms can reduce the risk of AIDS.
Condoms are part of the AIDS solution in Africa.
The RCC is wrong to deny this.

Now, if you wish to debate this, give me some facts, some links. Otherwise you are just making noise.

Nohome

There is only one link that is pertinent to this dicsussion:

newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06hv.htm

I suggest you start with article 17

You seem to think that your supposed experience in Africa makes you an expert in this area. As a long time counselor at a CPC I have talked extensively to people about abstinence and the danger of depending of condoms. I never started with the premise they were culturally incapable of following Church teaching-even with the numerous African Immigrants I spoke to.

Do you have any hands on experiecne in Counseling?

 

[Nohome]

estesbob:

There is only one link that is pertinent to this dicsussion:

newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06hv.htm

I suggest you start with article 17

You seem to think that your supposed experience in Africa makes you an expert in this area. As a long time counselor at a CPC I have talked extensively to people about abstinence and the danger of depending of condoms. I never started with the premise they were culturally incapable of following Church teaching-even with the numerous African Immigrants I spoke to.

Do you have any hands on experiecne in Counseling?

YAWN

 

[fix]

Aquarius:

1. A few months ago a Cardinal (Vatican I think) said condoms were not effective in reducing HIV. Are condoms effective in reducing HIV? guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

Interview with Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo
concerning condom use

I find literature by Dr. Helen Singer, of Cornell University, who is the director of the Human Sexuality Program of the Medical Center. She states this: “To have a permissive view with regard to condoms is to court death”. In our Pontifical Council we have a “Lexicon” of 900 pages in which one article deals with this theme. A physician, Dr. Jacques Suaudeau, wrote it, and it contains an abundant bibliography … but at least it seemed to us that there was a call to attention when we read in *The Guardian *that the World Health Organization states, “Consistent and correct condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%”. Therefore, there is that 10% where due to different causes, a risk remains. If 10 persons out of 100 can contract an illness like this, which is mortal, what should the attitude of the Health Ministries be? And so, this is simply what I said. A warning should be put on these products, such as, “This is not safe”, or “This is not completely safe”. This is a responsibility, especially towards the poor countries…
wf-f.org/Lopez-Trujillooncondoms.html

---

---

 

[Aquarius]

fix:

---

---

If 90 out of 100 people avoid AIDs then condoms are effective in reducing the epidemic.

The CDC says they are effective against AIDS. I think the CDC knows a bit more than the Cardinal in question.

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally posted by Nohome

Tell that to a young woman in Africa who must choose between chastity and starvation.

“Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practise them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonour to the Creator”.[5]

from paragraph 3 of Evangelium Vitae by Pope JPII, 1995

newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02ev.htm

Surely no one here is suggesting prostitution is a compassionate solution to the problem of hunger. How perverted can a man’s thinking be to think he is doing a poor woman a favor because he wears a condom while exploiting her body?

Children by the millions are orphans in Africa precisely because the great condom campaign has been a disaster. Even scientists who have seriously reviewed the evidence have come to that same conclusion despite their liberal leaning and bias. They are facing the truth.

 

[Aquarius]

Rosalinda:

Originally posted by Nohome

from paragraph 3 of Evangelium Vitae by Pope JPII, 1995

newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02ev.htm

Surely no one here is suggesting prostitution is a compassionate solution to the problem of hunger. How perverted can a man’s thinking be to think he is doing a poor woman a favor because he wears a condom while exploiting her body?

Children by the millions are orphans in Africa precisely because the great condom campaign has been a disaster. Even scientists who have seriously reviewed the evidence have come to that same conclusion despite their liberal leaning and bias. They are facing the truth.

Using a condom with a prostitute is doing her a great favor. It reduces the probability she will contract HIV.

 

[Rosalinda]

Here is an article with more background and an historical perspective entitled, “Uganda Leads by Example on Aids” by Tom Carter for The Washington Times:

usaid.gov/press/releases/2003/uganda030313.html

“The historical approach to HIV has been little A, little B and big C. The public health community at large did not believe in abstinence, but Africans were far ahead of the worldwide public health community on this,” said Anne Peterson, a physician and the USAID director of global health who is responsible for overseeing U.S. anti-HIV programs. “Kids are willing and able to abstain from sex. Condoms play a role. They are better than nothing, but the core of Uganda’s success story is big A, big B and little C.”