Why the Catholic Church Is Wise to Ban Condoms

[estesbob]

Aquarius:

I agreee. I would get the vaccine. Who else would be vaccinated?

Anyone who wants it. Id get it-all it takes is a needlpric from a contaminated needle during a routing check up and you are at risk. i also dont trust the blood supply-i always self donate when i have surgery.

 

[Nohome]

estesbob:

I take you have NO experience in couseling

I counseled young couples planning for marriage for five years (when I was Catholic).

PS Your misuse of the word “trite” leads me to believe you weren’t an English major either.

 

[estesbob]

Nohome:

I counseled young couples planning for marriage for five years (when I was Catholic).

PS Your misuse of the word “trite” leads me to believe you weren’t an English major either.

So it is established you have no couslening experience in the area we are speaking about. Since you disagree with Humana Vitae I shudder to think what kind of “advice” you gave these couples. Did your Pastor know you rejected Church teaching on contraception???

No i wasnt an English major-I also am not a member of the spell or grammar police. If you look at my profile you will see I am a CPA-70 tax returns down-450 to go.

 

[estesbob]

Aquarius:

I agreee. I would get the vaccine. Who else would be vaccinated?

Since , unlike condom use, being vaccinated is not a sin in itself anyone who wants to.

 

[Nohome]

estesbob:

So it is established you have no couslening experience in the area we are speaking about.

So, you need to be a counselor to have an opinion about public health? I shudder to think what kind of “advice” an accountant gave those less fortunate. At least I am schooled in science and health.

estesbob:

Since you disagree with Humana Vitae I shudder to think what kind of “advice” you gave these couples. Did your Pastor know you rejected Church teaching on contraception???

I told them the company line, as instructed by the Church. In five years, countless couples and hundreds of discussions, NONE of them said they intended to use NFP. They didn’t even consider it. They were polite, but refused to listen. Oh well, the USCCB estimtates that only 2-3% of Catholic do. Actually, it was this experience, in part, that led to my rejection of most Catholic teachings.

estesbob:

If you look at my profile you will see I am a CPA-70 tax returns down-450 to go.

Hang in there, you’ve got until the 17th this year!

Nohome

 

[estesbob]

Nohome:

So, you need to be a counselor to have an opinion about public health? I shudder to think what kind of “advice” an accountant gave those less fortunate. At least I am schooled in science and health.

No-but it helps to have hands on experience before making generalizations about peoples cultures not allowing them to follow Church Teachings

I told them the company line, as instructed by the Church. In five years, countless couples and hundreds of discussions, NONE of them said they intended to use NFP. They didn’t even consider it. They were polite, but refused to listen. Oh well, the USCCB estimtates that only 2-3% of Catholic do. Actually, it was this experience, in part, that led to my rejection of most Catholic teachings.

Good for you! It not our job to force people to follow Church teachigs but we must make sure they know what they are. I counseled married couples for a year and my experience was the same as yours. Most of them were suprised to hear that the Church forbid it.

Hang in there, you’ve got until the 17th this year!

Nohome

Thanks! The worst part is that this year Good Friday is April 14th-for the first time in 26 years I will keep my offices open that day.

 

[fix]

Aquarius:

I agree the stats apply to a population in general.

However, I think the stats are very relevant after one is infected. Use of a condom reduces the probability an infected person will spread the disease. Sex by an infected person without a condom is how the disease spreads.

There are three basic options. Abstinence, sex with condoms, sex without condoms.

There is a subset of the population that will not consider abstinence. This is also the subset that spreads HIV. For that subset they reduce their probability of contracting HIV by using condoms.

The medical evidence exists regardless of any moral standard. People should know that evidence. If someone then wants to apply a moral standard in deciding their own actions, they are free to do so.

The way the stats are used give a false sense of security. It is a gamble and should never be done.

 

[Rosalinda]

originally posted by Nohome

Obviously, the RCC is on the outside looking in when it comes to public health issues.

Give credit where credit is due. This article by Michael Cook, Was Karol Wojtyla the Greatest Mass Murderer of the 20th Century? should provide you with more insight Nohome.

Im not aware of whether any of these writers have visited AIDS hospices and embraced AIDS patients, as John Paul II did, or worked as hard John Paul II did to get international funding for AIDS treatment…
In fact, without the Catholic Church the situation might be much worse. The AIDS disaster in Africa weighed heavily on the Pope. Ten years ago he appealed to the worlds scientists and political leaders, moved by the love and respect due to every human person, to use every means available in order to put an end to this scourge (10). And Catholics have responded.

About 27 per cent of health care for HIV/AIDS victims is provided by Church organisations and Catholic NGOs, as even The Lancet has acknowledged (11). They form a vast network of clinics which reach the poorest, most remote and most neglected people in Africa.

tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=061005D

 

[Rosalinda]

A recent study of condom use in the developing world in the journal Studies in Family Planning summed up the situation with these damning words: no clear examples have emerged yet of a country that has turned back a generalised epidemic primarily by means of condom promotion (16). This is most clearly seen in southern Africa. High HIV transmission rates have continued despite high rates of condom use. In Botswana, says Professor Norman Hearst, of the University of California at San Francisco, condom sales rose from one million in 1993 to 3 million in 2001 while HIV prevalence amongst urban pregnant women rose from 27 per cent to 45 percent. In Cameroon condom sales rose from 6 million to 15 million while HIV prevalence rose from 3 per cent to 9 per cent.

In fact, the history of AIDS in Uganda supports the Churchs belief that abstinence and fidelity within marriage are actually the best ways to fight AIDS.

footnote 16: Norman Hearst and Sanny Chen. Condom Promotion for AIDS Prevention in the Developing World: Is It Working?. Studies in Family Planning. March 2004.

tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=061005D

 

[Aquarius]

fix:

The way the stats are used give a false sense of security. It is a gamble and should never be done.

What is wrong with taking actions that are a gamble?

 

[Aquarius]

Rosalinda:

footnote 16: Norman Hearst and Sanny Chen. Condom Promotion for AIDS Prevention in the Developing World: Is It Working?. Studies in Family Planning. March 2004.

tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=061005D

Suppose abstinence is the best way to fight AIDs. How do you deal with the subset of the population that will not abstain?

 

[fix]

Aquarius:

What is wrong with taking actions that are a gamble?

In the case we are talking about it is wrong as legitimate means exist without physically endangering one’s life or another’s life.

There is no absolute need to engage in sex when one has a deadly virus.

 

[Aquarius]

fix:

In the case we are talking about it is wrong as legitimate means exist without physically endangering one’s life or another’s life.

There is no absolute need to engage in sex when one has a deadly virus.

Is it wrong to physically endanger one’s life if alternative, legitimate means exist?

 

[fix]

Aquarius:

Is it wrong to physically endanger one’s life if alternative, legitimate means exist?

Why is it necessary to risk your life or another’s life for sexual acts? Who is the owner of your life? You or God?

 

[Aquarius]

fix:

Why is it necessary to risk your life or another’s life for sexual acts? Who is the owner of your life? You or God?

You told us:
“In the case we are talking about it is wrong as legitimate means exist without physically endangering one’s life or another’s life.”

I guess there must be another reason since the risk analysis is going downhill.

 

[Nohome]

estesbob:

No-but it helps to have hands on experience before making generalizations about peoples cultures not allowing them to follow Church Teachings

Like having worked in Africa? Besides, nobody is saying we should forbid people following Church teaching. My point all along has been that condoms are PART of the solution. If you can get people to abstain, by all means, do it.

estesbob:

Good for you! It not our job to force people to follow Church teachigs but we must make sure they know what they are. I counseled married couples for a year and my experience was the same as yours. Most of them were suprised to hear that the Church forbid it.

O.K., I can agree to teaching the people of Africa the teachings of the Church. Let’s make sure they know about condoms too.

I only had one couple who had never heard the Church’s teaching on ABC, the rest summarily dismissed it.

estesbob:

Thanks! The worst part is that this year Good Friday is April 14th-for the first time in 26 years I will keep my offices open that day.

Perhaps you can use the day as an opportunity to evangelize. You can point out how diminutive our sacrifice of paying taxes is compared to the divine suffering death for his creation.

Nohome

 

[fix]

Aquarius:

You told us:
“In the case we are talking about it is wrong as legitimate means exist without physically endangering one’s life or another’s life.”

I guess there must be another reason since the risk analysis is going downhill.

Perhaps I should be more clear. The condom use is wrong from a moral stand point and I am arguing it is wrong from a public health standpoint. Why is a life ending risk necessary when the acts in question may be simply avoided?

 

[Aquarius]

fix:

Perhaps I should be more clear. The condom use is wrong from a moral stand point and I am arguing it is wrong from a public health standpoint. Why is a life ending risk necessary when the acts in question may be simply avoided?

From a public health standpoint there is a subset of the population that will not avoid. Therefore to control disease we address that subset of the population with other means that will control disease.

 

[Nohome]

Rosalinda:

originally posted by Nohome

Give credit where credit is due. This article by Michael Cook, Was Karol Wojtyla the Greatest Mass Murderer of the 20th Century? should provide you with more insight Nohome.

tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=061005D

Thanks for the link. Let me demonstrate the bias of the story.

Superimposing maps of prevalence of AIDS on prevalence of Catholicism is enough to sink the link between the Catholic Church and AIDS. In the hospice which is Swaziland nowadays, only about 5 per cent of the population is Catholic. In Botswana, where 37 per cent of the adult population is HIV infected, only 4 per cent of the population is Catholic. In South Africa, 22 per cent of the population is HIV infected, and only 6 per cent is Catholic. But in Uganda, with 43 per cent of the population Catholic, the proportion of HIV infected adults is 4 per cent (9).

When I first read this last year, I thought they were on to something. So I followed the source of data and generated a spreadsheet. I compared the AIDS infection rates to the percent Catholic in every African Nation. The numbers listed above are correct, but the author left out a few details, things like:

Lesotho, 70% Catholic, 28.9% infection rate
Niger, 0.10% Catholic, 1.2% infection rate

The fact is, when you look at Africa as a whole, there is no correlation between the percentage of Catholics and the AIDS infection rate. The author would lead you to believe this, but there is no correlation. BTW, when I did this exercise, I found out, quite by accident that there is a positive correlation between low AIDS infection rates and literacy. Perhaps we just need to teach Africa to read.

Anyhow, while I agree that one can not blame the Pope for the AIDS tragedy in Africa, the Church is foolish to just dismiss evidence that condoms are PART of the solution.

Nohome

 

[estesbob]

Nohome:

Perhaps you can use the day as an opportunity to evangelize. You can point out how diminutive our sacrifice of paying taxes is compared to the divine suffering death for his creation.

Nohome

Naw-thats the line I use in justifying my bill…