Why this Jew prefers the 1955 Good Friday prayer

[Dies_Irae]

I explained this before in other threads, and due to the need to make dinner, will make it as brief as I can.

Judaism teaches that the righteous of ALL nations have a share in the World to Come. We believe, also, that God permitted both Christianity and Islam to develop so as to give Gentiles (who were previously polytheists, remember) access to the ethical monotheistic beliefs of Judaism without themselves needing to become Jews first.

Also, because of Christian missionaries, the Jewish Bible has been spread to the farthest corners of the world. Granted, its being interpreted in a way we do not agree with, but it is still being spread in ways that we were too small numerically to do ourselves. This serves God’s purpose, of making all the world know of ethical monotheism and the One God of Israel.

In this way, we believe, when the true Messiah does come, ALL the world will now be able to recognize him, because now, they will have been prepared for the very concept OF Messiah, which was a belief that until Christianity developed, only Jews accepted. Remember that the very word “messiah” derives from the Hebrew word “mashiach”, which means “anointed one”.

And in this way, the whole world will worship the One True God, for they will have been adequately prepared for the very idea of a Messiah!

So you see, this is why we do not believe Jews need to become Christians or Muslims…because those religions were allowed to develop by God so that GENTILES could come to learn Jewish ethical beliefs, including monotheism. It serves no purpose for Jews, because we ALREADY HAVE those beliefs.

Heh. When I try to get you to answer specifics, you put the ecumenical hat back on - but then the posts get a little fuzzy and don’t really address the questions posed.

I like the other hat better.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[HashemEchad]

Heh. When I try to get you to answer specifics, you put the ecumenical hat back on - but then the posts get a little fuzzy and don’t really address the questions posed.

I like the other hat better.

God bless,

Dies Irae

I gave you the traditional belief of Judaism. In fact, Maimonides (the Rambam) also taught that in his Mishneh Torah–Yad Hachzakah (Laws of Kings/Laws of Idol Worship).

You asked me a question, and I gave you Judaism’s answer.

Here it is, in its original context:

"In the end, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and the Ishmaelite (Mohammed) who arose after him only serve to pave the way for the coming of the Mashiach and to prepare the nations of the world to unite in serving God, as it says, “For then I will make the people pure of speech so that they will invoke Hashem by name and serve Him with a united resolve.” (Tzafaniah 3:9)

How will this come to pass? Today the entire world is aware of the concepts of Mashiach, the Torah and mitzvot. This message has spread to the most distant islands and to many primitive nations, who discuss these ideas and the mitzvos of the Torah.

They (the Christians) say, “The mitzvos are true, but they have been supplanted in the present age and are not applicable for all time.” Others (Moslems) say, “The mitzvos contain mystical ideas and should not be taken literally. The Messiah has already come and revealed those mystical truths.”

When the true King Mashiach arises and is successful, exalted and extolled, they will all have a change of heart and realize that their ancestors handed them a pack of lies, and their prophets and forefathers deceived them."

–Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Yad Hachzakah

There you have it, what you asked for…what Judaism teaches, from the horse’s mouth!

 

[Dies_Irae]

I gave you the traditional belief of Judaism.

Somewhat - my questions were:

1. 
   ]"But isn’t Truth important? Do Jews believe in absolute Truth? **Or is Truth relative?
   *
   *]If I’m wrong, and I’m blaspheming God in my beliefs and actions, and if you love God, why wouldn’t you want me to stop?"
   *]And will I have to stop when your version of the Messiah arrives and the Jewish world eutopia becomes a reality? I’m serious - I want to know the “end game” so to speak…what happens when your version of the Messiah arrives? In addition to animal sacrifice being restored - how does it affect the rest of the world?
   
   I think only the last one was sort of answered…you seem to say that when (your understanding of) the Messiah comes - all Muslims and Christians will instantly convert to Judaism and reject Christianity and Islam. Hmmmmm. What if they don’t? Then what?
   
   God bless,
   
   Dies Irae

 

[HashemEchad]

Somewhat - my questions were:

1. 
   ]"But isn’t Truth important? Do Jews believe in absolute Truth? **Or is Truth relative?
   *
   *]If I’m wrong, and I’m blaspheming God in my beliefs and actions, and if you love God, why wouldn’t you want me to stop?"
   *]And will I have to stop when your version of the Messiah arrives and the Jewish world eutopia becomes a reality? I’m serious - I want to know the “end game” so to speak…what happens when your version of the Messiah arrives? In addition to animal sacrifice being restored - how does it affect the rest of the world?
   
   I think only the last one was sort of answered…you seem to say that when (your understanding of) the Messiah comes - all Muslims and Christians will instantly convert to Judaism and reject Christianity and Islam. Hmmmmm. What if they don’t? Then what?
   
   God bless,
   
   Dies Irae

1. 
   The Prophets even say that in the End of days, when Messiah comes, people of all nations will come to worship Hashem at His holy mountain. So unless you don’t believe in the prophets of the “Old” Testament, it WILL come true.
   
   Judaism does believe in truth…and our truth is that the Torah is for Jews to obey. Gentiles need only keep the 7 Laws of Noah…for more info see noahide.org
   
   We believe Torah is truth for US; the 7 Laws of Noah are truth for YOU. This is because God made a Divine Covenant only with the Jewish people, but all nations may serve Him by keeping the 7 Laws of Noah since they should not keep the Torah because its only for Jews.
   
   If a Gentile blasphemes God, I have no control over that, nor does Judaism. We don’t burn people at the stake or throw them into dungeons for not agreeing with our beliefs, after all.
   
   But JEWS are forbidden by Jewish Law from blaspheming God, or from worshipping idols. We only have say over what JEWS do, since our religion is called JUDAISM, meaning, it is for JEWS.

 

[Dies_Irae]

The Prophets even say that in the End of days, when Messiah comes, people of all nations will come to worship Hashem at His holy mountain.

Okay - but “people of all nations”, or “all people of all nations”…subtle but important distinction their. I would say both are true, but only one has already been fulfilled…one still to come.

The first - people of all nations - is fulfilled *now *with the One True Church as it calls all peoples, all races, all nations to know, love and serve the One True God - to worship the One True God in the way He has given us - in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - which is the very same Once for All Sacrifice of Our Lord eternally presented to the Father. As it is written:
“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.”
Malachias 1:11

As for the “all people of all nations” - that happens at the end of time after the Final Judgment - when the Lord separates the sheep from the goats. The goats, those who have chosen to refuse Our Lord, and rejected God’s mercy and love, they are cut off - cast into hell for eternity. And for those who have not rejected Our Lord, not rejected God’s mercy and love - the fulfilment of all things:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away. And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.
Revelation 21:1-5

You however, are saying that “people of all nations will come to worship” God with the coming of the Messiah - an earthly kingdom right? People will still suffer, still die, still slaughter animals to make up for their sins, etc. And this goes on forever or what?

What of eternity - certainly you have something to say of eternity - of what comes after death?

And this is rather crucial for us in the here and now as well…what happens to folks now after they die?

…our truth is that the Torah is for Jews to obey. Gentiles need only keep the 7 Laws of Noah…for more info see noahide.org

Well, it’d be real easy for me to accuse of of holding to relative Truth - but I think if one actually looks into your “7 Laws of Noah” it demonstrates that it not relative after all…not really. For in the 7 Laws of Noah, one must reject Christ and His Church. That’s the little secret I think y’all don’t really want to talk about.

We believe Torah is truth for US; the 7 Laws of Noah are truth for YOU. This is because God made a Divine Covenant only with the Jewish people, but all nations may serve Him by keeping the 7 Laws of Noah since they should not keep the Torah because its only for Jews.

If a Gentile blasphemes God, I have no control over that, nor does Judaism. We don’t burn people at the stake or throw them into dungeons for not agreeing with our beliefs, after all.

So by practiceing and believing the Christian faith - I blaspheme God. But by obeying yoru “7 Laws of Noah”, I do not blaspheme God. But you say the “7 Laws of Noah” are for Christians.

C’mon now…what’s going on here? Please explain.

But JEWS are forbidden by Jewish Law from blaspheming God, or from worshipping idols. We only have say over what JEWS do, since our religion is called JUDAISM, meaning, it is for JEWS.

First of all, I didn’t ask you what you had “control” over - we’re two people talking. Don’t you want, out of your love of God, to try to prevent folks from blaspheming Him? Why wouldn’t you encourage folks to reject Christianity and embrace Judaism? Or is simply rejecting Christianity enough?

And speaking of “control” - after your understanding of the Messiah comes - don’t you believe you will have control over whether or not other races blaspheme God? Isn’t there some sort of court structure you have envisioned where non-Jews can be brought before your courts and such?

Or perhaps you envision this even prior to the coming of your understanding of the Messiah?

I don’t know - educate me .

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[HashemEchad]

In the Middle Ages, Jews were often accused by the church of “judaizing”. Perhaps this is why most Jews do not believe in trying to convert anyone to Judaism. Maybe too, this is why we have decided to leave you all to your own devices, as long as you also leave us alone.

While some of us may believe Christians are guilty of idolatry, we figure since you’re not Jewish anyway, its not as serious as if a Jew does it. Besides which, in times past, we Jews have learned that whenever we do anything that upsets Christians (notably the Catholic church), we wound up paying a high price in terms of persecutions, Inquisitions, and the like. So we tend to have a “we’ll keep to ourselves and let them keep to themselves” approach.

As for your question about the 7 Laws of Noah, I actually do know some Noahides who believe in Jesus…but they believe in him as a mortal man, not a god. The REAL problem comes in when you believe he was a divinity. Of course, we Jews also believe he was a failed messiah, but there is no real harm as a Jew in believing in a failed messiah (even though its dumb to do!), the key problem with Judaism and Jesus is that most Christians held him to be divine.

As far as “control” over Gentiles in a World to Come, as far as I know that is not the case. The only One who will be able to have that kind of “control” is God.

 

[dessert]

In the Middle Ages, Jews were often accused by the church of “judaizing”. Perhaps this is why most Jews do not believe in trying to convert anyone to Judaism. Maybe too, this is why we have decided to leave you all to your own devices, as long as you also leave us alone.
**What would happen if all the "Christians " (Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants) etc. were to leave Israel the Holy Land right now? What if there were no more pilgrims that visited and came to offer prayers at the wall? What if the USA were to withdraw? The muslims would take over, you think they are your friends, think again. **

As far as “control” over Gentiles in a World to Come, as far as I know that is not the case. The only One who will be able to have that kind of “control” is God.

 

[Dies_Irae]

…in times past, we Jews have learned that whenever we do anything that upsets Christians (notably the Catholic church), we wound up paying a high price in terms of persecutions, Inquisitions, and the like. So we tend to have a “we’ll keep to ourselves and let them keep to themselves” approach.

Ahhh - the good ol’ days. Seriously - in yesteryear, society took the faith much more seriously. Israel did too my friend…that cannot be denied.

…As for your question about the 7 Laws of Noah, I actually do know some Noahides who believe in Jesus…but they believe in him as a mortal man, not a god. The REAL problem comes in when you believe he was a divinity.

Okay - that’s clarity. Good. Just so we’re clear that following the 7 Laws of Noah means rejecting Christianity. Can’t straddle the fence on this one.

…As far as “control” over Gentiles in a World to Come, as far as I know that is not the case.

C’mon now…let’s talk straight. I can take it.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[HashemEchad]

Ahhh - the good ol’ days. Seriously - in yesteryear, society took the faith much more seriously. Israel did too my friend…that cannot be denied.

Okay - that’s clarity. Good. Just so we’re clear that following the 7 Laws of Noah means rejecting Christianity. Can’t straddle the fence on this one.

C’mon now…let’s talk straight. I can take it.

God bless,

Dies Irae

Accepting the 7 laws of Noah does not HAVE to mean rejecting Christianity…only a certain FORM of it (the “Jesus is divine and trinitarian” form only.) AFAIK JWs do not believe Jesus was divine, and do not believe in a trinity, so they would not be deemed idolaters.

 

[Dies_Irae]

Accepting the 7 laws of Noah does not HAVE to mean rejecting Christianity…only a certain FORM of it (the “Jesus is divine and trinitarian” form only.) AFAIK JWs do not believe Jesus was divine, and do not believe in a trinity, so they would not be deemed idolaters.

And neither are they deemed Christian.

 

[HashemEchad]

And neither are they deemed Christian.

They feel they are. To me and mostly all Jews (and others), if someone says they believe in Jesus, that makes them Christian.

 

[Dies_Irae]

They feel they are.

Now we’re drifting back into relative truth again. You must stay focused.

To me and mostly all Jews (and others), if someone says they believe in Jesus, that makes them Christian.

Well you believe in Jesus. That he existed. Are you a Christian?

 

[HashemEchad]

Now we’re drifting back into relative truth again. You must stay focused.

Well you believe in Jesus. That he existed. Are you a Christian?

JWs believe Jesus was the messiah. I don’t. If someone believes Jesus was the messiah, that makes them Christians, since only Christians believe Jesus was the messiah.

My late mother, who was raised Catholic and later converted to Judaism, used to tell me that she never believed Jesus was divine when she was Catholic, but she did believe he was the messiah.

Does that mean she was never a Catholic, even though she was baptized and raised one?

 

[Dies_Irae]

JWs believe Jesus was the messiah. I don’t. If someone believes Jesus was the messiah, that makes them Christians, since only Christians believe Jesus was the messiah.

Typical misunderstanding from those outside the Christian Faith. Simply too broad a definition you give. A Christian believes in the Divinity of Christ and the Triune God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Thus, a JW may claim to be a Christian, but strictly speaking, they are not. Their claim is erroneous.

So anyway - for the purposed of this discussion, it is fair to say then that one cannot be a faithful Catholic and follow the 7 Laws of Noah.

My late mother, who was raised Catholic and later converted to Judaism, used to tell me that she never believed Jesus was divine when she was Catholic, but she did believe he was the messiah. Does that mean she was never a Catholic, even though she was baptized and raised one?

Objectively speaking, one who is of the age of reason who denies the Divinity of Christ has rejected the Catholic faith.

Also, being “raised Catholic” means being raised with the Catholic faith - which means being raised with the belief in the Divinity of Christ. If this was the case, and if it was true that she “never believed this” - then somewhere when the age of reason and accountability came into being, she rejected the faith (and the graces given in Baptism).

This does not speak to her personal ignorance of the faith or the level of culpability in her rejection of the Catholic Faith - I have no idea what kind of upbringing she had, who taught her the faith, etc. I can only speak objectively.

And objectively speaking…it sounds like while she may have been baptized Catholic, the rejection of the faith upon reaching the age of reason would have made her a “dead member” of the body of Christ (I think that’s the term). Upon formally rejecting the faith and converting to the Jewish faith, she would have been cut off from the body of Christ entirely - sort of like a self imposed excommunication.

Given the information you provide, that’s all I can say. The Good Lord will know the whole scenerio and picture. And judge accordingly.

God bless,

Dies Irae

 

[HashemEchad]

I grew up with a misunderstanding of what Christians truly believed on the deity of Jesus thing, and my mother had a lot to do with it.

When I was a kid, and would sometimes watch religious epic movies on TV, they would have Jesus movies on too (King of Kings, etc). I was always interested in various religions, and remember asking my mom to explain to me what Christians believe about Jesus. She used to tell me (her words), “They believe he was the son of God.” The way I understood that, it does not mean they believed he was was divine, but a son of God, just as all of us are (that is how a Jew would understand it.)

It was not until my teen years that I read that Christians believe more…that they believe he was God the son, as opposed to son of God. Believing he was “a son of God” sounded OK to my Jewish ears, but God the son?!