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patg
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If you are interested in what the current scholars are writing and what is being taught now (with the *imprimatur *and *nihil obstat *for most), I suggest:
The Birth of the Messiah by Raymond Brown S.S.
The 3 volumes of *A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus *by Fr. John Meier
The Pontifical Biblical Commission’s Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels (available online).
And if you want to read the book which is quite often used in Catholic adult scripture classes, try: **And God Said What?: An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms **by Margaret Ralph. Available in paperback from Amazon and others.
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Danno2281
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Specific to this thread, I heartily recommend UNLESS SOME MAN SHOW ME, a Deus paperback written by Rev Alexander Jones, S.J., the English language editor of the JERUSALEM BIBLE. I have some reservations, or rather objections to the J.B. in terms of some questionable (IMHO heretical) commentary on 2 Peter, but the book that Jones wrote (it is pre Vat II) is thoroughly Catholic. It makes the garden event very understandable; indeed it helps me to see that I am truly a child of my first parents, choosing what they chose (to be my own moral authority, to decide for myself what is good and what is evil, to play God).
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Yaholo
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Here is my two cents on the subject, given as pure opinion. Take it as seriously as you wish:
I think one of the greatest tricks of Satan today is that he fools us not through total lies, but by telling the truth (sorta).
NOTE: To all you who want to blow off the Genesis story as myth… you’re really boring and lack imagination.
- I don’t think the snake had to be Satan or a devil of any kind. I think that before the Fall, maybe even for a while after, animals could talk. I think this because Eve didn’t seem to care that the snake was talking, and there are later examples in Scripture of animals talking (Numbers 22) Besides, why else would God punish all snakes?
- God made us in His image, except for an awareness of good and evil. God might have wished for us to share in that knowledge, but He knew the pain and suffering it would cause. Therefore, perhaps God wanted to leave it to our own choice what path mankind would take.
- God, being even merciful, did not tell us the benefits of the choice, only the consequence.
I think one of the greatest tricks of Satan today is that he fools us not through total lies, but by telling the truth (sorta).
NOTE: To all you who want to blow off the Genesis story as myth… you’re really boring and lack imagination.
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JohnMac
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The serpent is a murderer of souls in Genesis by causing sin to enter the world. This spiritual death is much more serious than physical death. For this reason, it is clear that the serpent is also a liar b/c he subtly tells the woman that she will not die if she eats of the tree. It’s a bit of a stretch to suggest that Jesus was refering to Cain. Do you really think that?
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JohnMac
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A little lengthy, but hopefully will be helpful. It addresses most of the questions above.
God planted the garden of Eden, with the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in it. Genesis 2 explains the duties and commands that God placed under Adam’s care. It states that, “The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, ‘you may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die’” (Gen 2:15-17). Adam’s duties in the garden along with God’s command to Adam reveal a number of important points.
Adam must fulfill the duties of priest-king in the cosmic covenant and husband in his marital covenant with Eve. The priestly duties of Adam are of concern here. Adam’s duty in the garden was to “till” and “keep” it. The Hebrew word for “keep” is shamar, which means “to guard”. From this, it is clear that Adam was alerted to the possibility that he might be called to exercise his priestly duty by guarding the garden from potential intruders. God’s warning to Adam that, “in the day that you eat of it you shall die” is perfectly clear. Though immortality was one of the preternatural gifts given to Adam, it was given as a conditional gift. That is, Adam had to fulfill the requirement placed upon him by God in order to maintain it. The requirement was that Adam remained obedient to God’s prohibition against eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, Adam possessed potential immortality, but knew that the possibility of death existed.
Adam and Eve had been freely given all that they could ever ask for from God. They were given supernatural grace, the preternatural gifts, a life of paradise in the garden of Eden, and each other as husband and wife. Supernatural grace made them partakers in the divine life as adopted sons and daughters of God. All of this was freely bestowed upon them by God as a completely gratuitous gift. To keep this share in divine life, all they had to do was obey the command of God by not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They had been given all the necessary tools to do so.
It is important to remember that all of these wonderful gifts, freely bestowed upon Adam and Eve, were not their final end. God wanted to and planned to give them so much more. Their final end was supposed to be an unending life of perfect happiness, produced by immediate union with and direct sight of God, by the beatific vision. The paradise of the garden of Eden, along with all the other gifts given to Adam and Eve, was set up by God as a probationary state of testing.
God’s prohibition against Adam and Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a very important part of the story of the fall. The tree, “symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom” (CCC 396). This tree would be central to the test that Adam and Eve were about to endure.
Adam was called to make a sacrifice of obedience and faith to God in return for the earthly paradise that God gratuitously bestowed upon him. God’s prohibition placed on the freedom of man to eat from this one tree demanded obedience and complete submission on the part of man. Disobedience on the part of man meant the loss of the supernatural and preternatural gifts that God had given him. This implies that obedience would have meant the retention of these gifts until man entered the world to come. There was, therefore, an implied pact or covenant between God and Adam, the observance of which by Adam was a grave obligation. It was in this obligation that Adam would fail.
God actually placed this tree in the center of the garden of Eden. This can be seen as a reminder to man that he is not God, and that God must always remain the center of man’s world. In this way, the tree can be seen as sacramental because it is a physical object that conveys a spiritual reality. Obedience to God’s prohibition was required of Adam and Eve in this probationary state of testing. This probationary state of testing was meant to strengthen and confirm Adam and Eve in righteousness so they could face the beatific vision worthily. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil plays a central role in the test that Adam and Eve are about to face in Genesis 3.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church advises how one should read the account of the fall. It states that, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390). Genesis 3 should help answer the question of why Adam sinned.
Genesis 3 tells the story of the temptation and fall of man. The story begins with the serpent subtly convincing Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent told the woman that they would not die if they ate of the tree, and that their eyes would be opened so that they would be like God. The woman took and ate of the fruit and gave some to her husband, and he ate (Gen 3:1-7). This transgression of God’s command was the first sin of man, but what was the cause of this sin?
It is important to keep in mind, that although man had not yet sinned, the angelic fall had already occurred. The reader is reminded of this when temptation enters the story in the form of a serpent. Temptation presents as good, something that is actually evil. This could not have come from within man in his pre-fallen state. It is important to note that temptation came to pre-fallen man from the outside. Sacred Scripture (see Rev 12:9, 20:2, & Jn 8:44) and the Tradition of the Church both identify the serpent with Satan himself. When he spoke to Eve, the serpent twisted God’s words into a confusing web of half-truths that put Eve on the defensive. This is the time when Adam should have intervened and fulfilled his duty to guard the garden and protect his new wife. The serpent is the intruder that God warned Adam about by giving him the duty to guard the garden. Why did Adam not act?
The Hebrew word for serpent, nahash, often refers to something that bites with venom and poses a threat to mortal life. Adam knew that he possessed eternal life, but he also knew that he could die. The serpent said that they would not die if they ate from the tree. In this statement the serpent implies that he will kill them if they do not eat the forbidden fruit. Adam did not act and fulfill his duty to protect the garden and his new bride because of the fear of physical suffering and death. It is the fear of physical suffering and death that caused Adam to fall before the sins of pride and disobedience came into the picture.
The fear of physical suffering and death is what caused Adam to fall to the sins of pride and disobedience. Adam had to make a choice between the created gifts that were over-abundantly bestowed upon him and his faith in God. It was in turning away from God in pride and disobedience that Adam fell. The results of the first sin can be seen to be immediately devastating.
When man turned away from God at the fall he lost the preternatural gifts and supernatural grace. Man’s nature was not destroyed, but it was wounded and this hindered man’s ability to strive for the moral life. Man was certainly destitute, but God would not leave man alone. His gifts of excess will forever overwhelm man’s being beyond imagination.
After the fall God handed down severe consequences to Adam and Eve, which included pain, suffering, and death. He next cursed the serpent and promised to send a Savior to redeem fallen man. It was suffering and death that Adam was unwilling to endure when he turned from God and betrayed his duties as priest-king and husband. For this reason, it would take much suffering and even death on a cross to reverse the curse (original sin) that Adam brought to humanity because of his sin.
The perfection of the redemptive work of Christ points to how Adam was called to act when he fell to sin. Original sin explains the trouble with human life and redemption explains the remedy.
The act of Christ’s redemption shows how Adam should have acted. It is the complete and sacrificial gift of self that Christ made on the cross that was called for from Adam in the garden. Adam needed to embrace the tree of life with faith that the Father would not abandon him, in the same way that Christ embraced the tree of life, his cross. Adam needed to make a complete gift of self, even to the point of suffering and death, in order to truly love as God willed. Adam needed to open himself up fully to the will of God who was dwelling within him. If he had done so, he would have passed the test and overcome temptation. His reward would surely have been eternal life in heavenly glory.
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revnash
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God created life but He also created choice. He did not create the serpent which is and always was evil.
The tree stood as a choice. Either choose God or the serpent. He is not a dictator, He allows us to follow our own paths however, He does want us to follow His path and is sad and judgemental when we do not. But He does allow choice.
One can not know what would have been if only Eve had eaten from the tree and not Adam, one can only surmise that she would have been led in to damnation and made to follow her own path, maybe God would have created another for Adam, who knows? but it shows that Adam was weak as was Eve. It also shows us that we do not have to follow in their footsteps, we can prove that we are better than that and follow God.
The main word, the key word is choice, it always has been and always will be, it is up to us to make the right one
The tree stood as a choice. Either choose God or the serpent. He is not a dictator, He allows us to follow our own paths however, He does want us to follow His path and is sad and judgemental when we do not. But He does allow choice.
One can not know what would have been if only Eve had eaten from the tree and not Adam, one can only surmise that she would have been led in to damnation and made to follow her own path, maybe God would have created another for Adam, who knows? but it shows that Adam was weak as was Eve. It also shows us that we do not have to follow in their footsteps, we can prove that we are better than that and follow God.
The main word, the key word is choice, it always has been and always will be, it is up to us to make the right one
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Valke2
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I think it is a huge stretch to say Cain was Satan, I agree. But at least he did commit murder. The Serpent did not commit murder so it is an even larger leap of imagination to believe it was Satan.
As for the serpent being a liar, the woman does not die. True, she forfiets immortality by being denied the tree of life. But if you are going to call the serpent a liar based on this, then you can just as easily call God a liar for saying that on the day they eat from the tree of knowledge…they will surely die.
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buffalo
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fhansen
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Somehow I don’t think the originators of this story just missed this fact. Catholicism refers to the “death of the soul” in some of her teachings. Man lost something at the beginning -the way mankind is now wasn’t the way it was originally designed to be. This spiritual death comes from a detachment -by mans’ turning away -from the only One who can sustain his life. In other words, man needs God to live whether he likes the idea or not, and in this life we are without God, left to our own devices, to decide whether we really do like it or not.
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AgnosTheist
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A shallow understanding of love & free-will is if you put a mouse-trap in the middle of a toddler’s play room. Thats practically what happened to adam & eve. Those two are 5yr olds in the body of an Adult. They dont even have the knowledge of good & evil yet.That makes sense to me - I am converted.
This shows a shallow understanding of love and free-will.
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buffalo
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But they did know that God told them not to go near it. The same as a father telling their child don’t touch the stove or you will get burned.
God created them with preternatural gifts - infused with supernatural knowledge.
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Spirithound
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Forfeiting the grace to enter Heaven is death.
Hebrew has no superlative form, so you will note that Genesis 2:17 (in Hebrew) contains the root " MWT " twice, indicating a death worse than physical death. That sort was certainly imputed to them at the time of their eating.
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someotherguy
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He said “Don’t eat it” and “if you eat it, you’ll die”. That’s all God needed to say. When He gives a command, He does not need to justify Himself or His command to us.
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JohnMac
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Did you read anything in my post before responding to it? You don’t acknowledge or address any of the contentions of the serpent being the liar and the murderer.
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AgnosTheist
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a burning stove looks menacing enough. thats world of difference from innocent looking poisoned fruit placed in the middle of the dining table. the kids were doing fine ignoring it, but then dad let in a visitor telling the kids that its ok to eat it.
my friend, thats a SET UP. in the real world its the parent who gets a prison term for this irresponsible act.
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buffalo
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So God set us up? OK - God set us up. Life is tough and whatever His reasons I will just have to accept it and move on.
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AgnosTheist
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yeah tough luck, huh. we are nothing but insects that has no choice but to play along with the masters wishes. god just wanna have fun.So God set us up? OK - God set us up. Life is tough and whatever His reasons I will just have to accept it and move on.
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JohnMac
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Our first parents were created in the state of integrity due to the preternatural gifts and the infusion of supernatural grace. It is ignorant to compare them with children.
God gave them everything and asked only obedience of them. Sad to say, we continue to make the same mistake they did to this day.
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AgnosTheist
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well thats why i cant find it reasonable to believe in the god of the bible. its too much like a senseless fairytale. 
adam & eve, noahs magical ark, killing infants in the name of god, jesus coming to earth a million years later after man started walking the earth, no sense man. no sense.
adam & eve, noahs magical ark, killing infants in the name of god, jesus coming to earth a million years later after man started walking the earth, no sense man. no sense.
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