Why would a Roman Catholic become Orthodox?

[ForeverAdam]

Fidelity to Rome is the ancient tradition that your Church denied. You don’t have to abandon your traditions. This isn’t expected of any Eastern Catholic Churches. We welcome and encourage the preservation of culture and custom. What we cannot encourage is the departure from sound doctrine. The problem isn’t the customs, culture and traditions, its that you wont accept the doctrines or unity. Plain and simple.

We have always been faithful to Orthodox Rome. However, an ancient tradition that still lives on in both of our Churches states that if a Pope falls into heresy, that we are bound to resist him and wait for a true Pope to arrive. We do just that. Also, we cannot accept false doctrines and we already have the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer for unity in the unity of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. Unity among all Christians is something to aspire to, but it leaves nothing lacking in the Church before it comes about.

God bless,

Adam

 

[chrisb]

If we look at history the Church has always assimilated/incorporated what is good from the world and even some things that I think may not have been so good like all the Monarchical pomp.

I’m not sure recent ‘assimilation’ after Vatican II is an example of this…

Surely what we each hold as time honored traditions/personal devotions that are efficacious for our spiritual life is more than ok to adopt from each other so long as no one is causing schism over it.

Vatican II effectively jettisoned ‘time honored traditions/personal devotions’ for something ‘new’. Again I’m not sure history can be used to press your case here.

We still fall under the same umbrella of Catholic. Scripture tells us not to scandalize our brethren and those we evangelize in this way.

Do we?

…the liturgical reform welcomed with so much idealism and hope by many priests and lay people alike has turned out to be a liturgical destruction of startling proportions - a debacle worsening with each passing year. Instead of the hoped-for renewal of the Church and of Catholic life, we are now witnessing a dismantling of the traditional values and piety on which our faith rests. Instead of a fruitful renewal of the liturgy, what we see is the destruction of the forms of the Mass which had developed organically during the course of many centuries. ~ Monsignor Gamber

The only problem I see is if there is a lack of respect for the others culture and custom which isn’t a Christian attitude to begin with or possibly flattering another’s custom by insincere adoption of some practice simply to appease another for some reason.

What about a ‘lack of appreciation’ of our own culture and customs? What have se said about others’ culture and customs if we don’t even appreciation our own?

Unfortunately, I don’t believe we are in the positions to press ‘any’ of the points you have presented.

 

[jam070406]

I’m not sure recent ‘assimilation’ after Vatican II is an example of this…

Vatican II effectively jettisoned ‘time honored traditions/personal devotions’ for something ‘new’. Again I’m not sure history can be used to press your case here.

Do we?

…the liturgical reform welcomed with so much idealism and hope by many priests and lay people alike has turned out to be a liturgical destruction of startling proportions - a debacle worsening with each passing year. Instead of the hoped-for renewal of the Church and of Catholic life, we are now witnessing a dismantling of the traditional values and piety on which our faith rests. Instead of a fruitful renewal of the liturgy, what we see is the destruction of the forms of the Mass which had developed organically during the course of many centuries. ~ Monsignor Gamber

What about a ‘lack of appreciation’ of our own culture and customs? What have se said about others’ culture and customs if we don’t even appreciation our own?

Unfortunately, I don’t believe we are in the positions to press ‘any’ of the points you have presented.

That’s right blame Vatican II.

 

[chrisb]

That’s right blame Vatican II.

It’s the closest example of our own infallibility…

 

[bogoljub]

Thank you, bogolijub, for your informative posts. They always strengthen me in my faith. I hope many Roman Catholics learn from them as well. The statements by several Roman Catholics on this thread make me sad. They act as if humble fidelity to our ancient traditions is a sign of stagnation and that we need union with Papal Rome so that we can grow into a new era of abandonment of these traditions. I hope they begin to understand that while the expression of Faith organically develops, that traditions are never to be separated from the doctrine of the Church nor should they be abandoned, but maintained and strengthened.

God bless,

Adam

God bless!

Thank u so much and I like yours they are very informative and not in such a bad grammar and spelling than mine !

But I think Joab and the others well know that we are true but of course they will not agree otherwise they must convert.
Because when u hear rcc and protestants discussing about faith u will hear often from the rcc how important is Tradition, they even call their church traditional and so on…I think they only make excuses …they exactly know that when we do not hold to the apostolic tradition we are outside the church even with the Pope…

And we can see clearly wich Church is living the apostolic Tradition- it is a fact not a believe.

This is also the reason why whole parishes and monasteries are converting to orthodoxy when the rcc and even more the protestant chuches are bleeding out- I think it is the work of God.

In CHRIST

 

[Joab_Anias]

We have always been faithful to Orthodox Rome. However, an ancient tradition that still lives on in both of our Churches states that if a Pope falls into heresy, that we are bound to resist him and wait for a true Pope to arrive.

Seems like you are then waiting indefinitely and stuck. That should tell you something Are you claiming that by a bad Pope when he dies the conclave then has no recourse to elect a true Pope? Hardly and this argument is the same paranoid thought of the SSPX who were on the verge of schism. It doesn’t wash in the light of scripture:

1Ti 6:2 But they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but serve them the rather, because they are faithful and beloved, who are partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and **to that doctrine **which is according to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions

It is these suspicions that prevent your Church from admitting any man could be Pope ever since yet again scripture tells us there is one regardless of his sins.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Do you believe that your Church has the right to bind division in heaven where there is no division?

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time (the schism) when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light: and there is no scandal in him.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: **let all things be done to edification. **

Not division.

We do just that. Also, we cannot accept false doctrines and we already have the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer for unity in the unity of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. Unity among all Christians is something to aspire to, but it leaves nothing lacking in the Church before it comes about.

Your newly created Church has no authority to declare sound doctrine apart from the rest of primary Christendom set up by Christ as Catholic nor the ability to bind and loose. Your 1000 year history should prove this for you and why you’re unable to have a teaching authority that binds and looses.

Christ’s prayer for Unity is for all of Christendom, not just the EO. There are more believers beyond your gates and walls. Unity is more than something to aspire to. It’s the will of God and will transpire in His time. Of course if you’re lacking unity with the rest of Christendom you are lacking something in your Church. You are lacking the will of Christ and all the scriptures about judging wrongly and pride apply!

Peace.

 

[bogoljub]

Seems like you are then waiting indefinitely and stuck. That should tell you something Are you claiming that by a bad Pope when he dies the conclave then has no recourse to elect a true Pope? Hardly and this argument is the same paranoid thought of the SSPX who were on the verge of schism. It doesn’t wash in the light of scripture:

1Ti 6:2 But they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but serve them the rather, because they are faithful and beloved, who are partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and **to that doctrine **which is according to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions

It is these suspicions that prevent your Church from admitting any man could be Pope ever since yet again scripture tells us there is one regardless of his sins.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Do you believe that your Church has the right to bind division in heaven where there is no division?

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time (the schism) when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light: and there is no scandal in him.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: **let all things be done to edification. **

Not division.

Your newly created Church has no authority to declare sound doctrine apart from the rest of primary Christendom set up by Christ as Catholic nor the ability to bind and loose. Your 1000 year history should prove this for you and why you’re unable to have a teaching authority that binds and looses.

Christ’s prayer for Unity is for all of Christendom, not just the EO. There are more believers beyond your gates and walls. Unity is more than something to aspire to. It’s the will of God and will transpire in His time. Of course if you’re lacking unity with the rest of Christendom you are lacking something in your Church. You are lacking the will of Christ and all the scriptures about judging wrongly and pride apply!

Peace.

God bless!

You know very well that we have a 2000 year history - please let us not fall into lies.

We lack nothing - but your church lacks much !

And always your quotes from the Holy Scripture are not against the orthodox church because we follow the interpretation of the Holy Fathers and so we follow the correct interpretation do u the same or do u follow your own interpretation.

When you want that we are one, change your innovations return to the ancient faith and we are one. Or do u want union in your personal sense and not in the scriiptural and patristic sense ?

In CHRIST

 

[Joab_Anias]

I’m not sure recent ‘assimilation’ after Vatican II is an example of this…

Vatican II has barely begun to unfold.

Vatican II effectively jettisoned ‘time honored traditions/personal devotions’ for something ‘new’. Again I’m not sure history can be used to press your case here.

Lol, it jettisoned nothing. If your unsure perhaps you need study of the subject. Prayer to the Holy Spirit for wisdom should get the ball rolling.

What about a ‘lack of appreciation’ of our own culture and customs? What have se said about others’ culture and customs if we don’t even appreciation our own?

What you say is non-sensical. First you don’t know my culture and second our customs are world wide and inclusive and you insinuate we don’t appreciate them as much as the EO do theirs. There’s some-one who warrants more appreciation and that is Jesus our Christ. If your willing to follow him your willing to give up all for His sake.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe we are in the positions to press ‘any’ of the points you have presented.

Theres a difference between pressing and presenting. Pressing the points and ascerting authority are silly mistakes and not a minor cause of what lead to this unfortunate split in the first place as well as the one over the reformation.

Vatican II address it but if your not praying, reading scripture, Church teachings and frequenting the sacraments your never going to see that.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And always your quotes from the Holy Scripture are not against the orthodox church because we follow the interpretation of the Holy Fathers and so we follow the correct interpretation do u the same or do u follow your own interpretation.

Sounds like the Pharisees when they say, “We follow Moses. We do not know where you came from. Moses we know.”

When you want that we are one, change your innovations return to the ancient faith and we are one. Or do u want union in your personal sense and not in the scriiptural and patristic sense ?

Unity can only be done with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in both Churches.

In CHRIST

 

[bobzills]

Your newly created Church has no authority to declare sound doctrine apart from the rest of primary Christendom set up by Christ as Catholic nor the ability to bind and loose. .

It is seriously wrong to say that the E Orthodox Church is a newly created Church. No one with a slight amount of credibility says anything like this.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is seriously wrong to say that the E Orthodox Church is a newly created Church. No one with a slight amount of credibility says anything like this.

I don’t think EO is a new Church either. I’m Catholic. I just think they are Schismatic.

 

[Joab_Anias]

You know very well that we have a 2000 year history - please let us not fall into lies.

Where have I lied? If you meant when I said 1000 years I see now that I should have clarified that I meant the time since the schism, not before. No lie in unintentionally being unclear my friend.

We lack nothing - but your church lacks much !

We don’t lack a Pope or teaching authority but its true we lack the same unity you do.

And always your quotes from the Holy Scripture are not against the orthodox church because we follow the interpretation of the Holy Fathers and so we follow the correct interpretation do u the same or do u follow your own interpretation.

Are you afraid of scripture? I follow the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit convicts you with His words then you better watch out. It is not I who accuses you but I am only pointing out what Gods word says. Its His words that you find difficult to hear, not mine.

When you want that we are one, change your innovations return to the ancient faith and we are one. Or do u want union in your personal sense and not in the scriiptural and patristic sense?

I want that we are one because thats what Jesus wants. I think you could care less. That should tell you that your not following Jesus.

I follow the ancient faith that began with Jesus and continued in the exact same way after your Church formed itself anew after the schism. I realize you feel your following the same ancient faith as I but as shown with the Scriptures you are acutally following traditions instead. I regret if this causes you pain or you can’t accept it. I know its hard for me sometimes when I read scriptures that aim to effect a change in me too. This is where humility comes in. I do not truncate Gods words and I have to conform to Gods word because it cannot be made to conform to me.

Union in a scriptural sense is what I am trying to facilitate by quoting to you scriptures I ask for from God to speak for me. I see the EO quote council and father on top of father but I have never seen one appeal to scripture. Why is that?

The patristic sense is hardly up to us but to our Fathers and Patriarchs to work out between them.

Peace.

 

[chrisb]

Vatican II has barely begun to unfold.

Christianity is a liturgical religion, i.e., the very center of our spiritual lives is the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist. As with any religious worship, an implicit theology is always reflected in prayers, incense, gestures, music, dress and in style of architecture. Dramatically change this and you will change the faith. This is a truth reflected in the ancient law of the Church - lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of belief.

Lol, it jettisoned nothing. If your unsure perhaps you need study of the subject. Prayer to the Holy Spirit for wisdom should get the ball rolling.

In his book, Histoire des Variations des Eglises Protestants, Catholic historian Bishop Bossuet described how liturgical experimentation denied Protestants doctrinal cohesion, shattering them into numberless different denominations. Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VIII, understood this very well when he destroyed the Roman Catholic Church in England by changing the liturgy. Many of the changes he introduced are frighteningly similar to the new mass, as brilliantly analyzed by Catholic author Michael Davies in his book, Cranmer’s Godly Order.

What you say is non-sensical. First you don’t know my culture and second our customs are world wide and inclusive and you insinuate we don’t appreciate them as much as the EO do theirs. There’s some-one who warrants more appreciation and that is Jesus our Christ. If your willing to follow him your willing to give up all for His sake.

Again, your presumption… How do you know I don’t know anything about ‘your’ culture?

Vatican II address it but if your not praying, reading scripture, Church teachings and frequenting the sacraments your never going to see that.

Most Roman Catholics do not read Papal Encyclicalls or Papal Addresses; the Church speaks to her faithful as she always has, through the liturgy. Thus Rome’s foremost liturgical scholar, Monsignor Klaus Gmber, explains in his book, Reform of the Roman Liturgy, (warmly endorsed by then Cardinal Ratzinger), that liturgy and faith are interwoven and together form a fabric of belief. The old mass that reflected the traditional truths of the faith in its rubrics and piety had been suppressed after Vatican II and continue to be suppressed by the Bishops. In its place, as a concession to the ecumenical movement, we were given a new rite with scripture readings that pointedly eliminated any passages of warning us that, while we have a loving God, He is also a God who will judge us. In the same vein, the traditional prayers and hymns that once reminded us in majestic prose and lyrics that we have a soul which we could lose, have been replaced with new ones that, lacking any reference to our eternal outcome, are vapid and vacuous.

Perhaps you should set aside the coolaid and do a little more study?

 

[Joab_Anias]

It is seriously wrong to say that the E Orthodox Church is a newly created Church. No one with a slight amount of credibility says anything like this.

When did it begin being called the EO?

It is a new creation.

 

[jam070406]

Christianity is a liturgical religion, i.e., the very center of our spiritual lives is the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist. As with any religious worship, an implicit theology is always reflected in prayers, incense, gestures, music, dress and in style of architecture. Dramatically change this and you will change the faith. This is a truth reflected in the ancient law of the Church - lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of belief.

In his book, Histoire des Variations des Eglises Protestants, Catholic historian Bishop Bossuet described how liturgical experimentation denied Protestants doctrinal cohesion, shattering them into numberless different denominations. Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VIII, understood this very well when he destroyed the Roman Catholic Church in England by changing the liturgy. Many of the changes he introduced are frighteningly similar to the new mass, as brilliantly analyzed by Catholic author Michael Davies in his book, Cranmer’s Godly Order.

Again, your presumption… How do you know I don’t know anything about ‘your’ culture?

Most Roman Catholics do not read Papal Encyclicalls or Papal Addresses; the Church speaks to her faithful as she always has, through the liturgy. Thus Rome’s foremost liturgical scholar, Monsignor Klaus Gmber, explains in his book, Reform of the Roman Liturgy, (warmly endorsed by then Cardinal Ratzinger), that liturgy and faith are interwoven and together form a fabric of belief. The old mass that reflected the traditional truths of the faith in its rubrics and piety had been suppressed after Vatican II and continue to be suppressed by the Bishops. In its place, as a concession to the ecumenical movement, we were given a new rite with scripture readings that pointedly eliminated any passages of warning us that, while we have a loving God, He is also a God who will judge us. In the same vein, the traditional prayers and hymns that once reminded us in majestic prose and lyrics that we have a soul which we could lose, have been replaced with new ones that, lacking any reference to our eternal outcome, are vapid and vacuous.

Perhaps you should set aside the coolaid and do a little more study?

Which begs the question Chris. Seeing that you know all this, will you stand and defend her against the Modernist attempt to destroy her or will you depart from her to something that seems more appealing on the outside?

 

[Joab_Anias]

Christianity is a liturgical religion, i.e., the very center of our spiritual lives is the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist. As with any religious worship, an implicit theology is always reflected in prayers, incense, gestures, music, dress and in style of architecture.

Agreed

Dramatically change this and you will change the faith. This is a truth reflected in the ancient law of the Church - lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of belief.

I guees you don’t appreicate Vatican II then.

2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

Again, your presumption… How do you know I don’t know anything about ‘your’ culture?

Its no presumption to know that you do not know me or my cultural background.

Most Roman Catholics do not read Papal Encyclicalls or Papal Addresses; the Church speaks to her faithful as she always has, through the liturgy. Thus Rome’s foremost liturgical scholar, Monsignor Klaus Gmber, explains in his book, Reform of the Roman Liturgy, (warmly endorsed by then Cardinal Ratzinger), that liturgy and faith are interwoven and together form a fabric of belief. The old mass that reflected the traditional truths of the faith in its rubrics and piety had been suppressed after Vatican II and continue to be suppressed by the Bishops.

So Vatican II is our enemy then? Its incumbent upon all Catholics to know what the Church teaches.

In its place, as a concession to the ecumenical movement, we were given a new rite with scripture readings that pointedly eliminated any passages of warning us that, while we have a loving God, He is also a God who will judge us. In the same vein, the traditional prayers and hymns that once reminded us in majestic prose and lyrics that we have a soul which we could lose, have been replaced with new ones that, lacking any reference to our eternal outcome, are vapid and vacuous.

Hardly lacking.

Perhaps you should set aside the coolaid and do a little more study?

Eph 4:3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.

 

[bogoljub]

Where have I lied? If you meant when I said 1000 years I see now that I should have clarified that I meant the time since the schism, not before. No lie in unintentionally being unclear my friend.

We don’t lack a Pope or teaching authority but its true we lack the same unity you do.

Are you afraid of scripture? I follow the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit convicts you with His words then you better watch out. It is not I who accuses you but I am only pointing out what Gods word says. Its His words that you find difficult to hear, not mine.

I want that we are one because thats what Jesus wants. I think you could care less. That should tell you that your not following Jesus.

I follow the ancient faith that began with Jesus and continued in the exact same way after your Church formed itself anew after the schism. I realize you feel your following the same ancient faith as I but as shown with the Scriptures you are acutally following traditions instead. I regret if this causes you pain or you can’t accept it. I know its hard for me sometimes when I read scriptures that aim to effect a change in me too. This is where humility comes in. I do not truncate Gods words and I have to conform to Gods word because it cannot be made to conform to me.

Union in a scriptural sense is what I am trying to facilitate by quoting to you scriptures I ask for from God to speak for me. I see the EO quote council and father on top of father but I have never seen one appeal to scripture. Why is that?

The patristic sense is hardly up to us but to our Fathers and Patriarchs to work out between them.

Peace.

God bless!

We do not lack the Pope if we so u are because theire is no roman Pope anymore ! We do not have an orthodox Patriarch of Rome but u too.

I do not fear the Scripture - but u know very well that often it depends on the interpretation. Even such sects like the Witnessers of Jehova use Holy Scripture for their heretic stuff.

I only want to say that when u quote Scripture u should interprete in the way of the Church and the Fathers - so we would have to look how they interprete it. It would also good to have union with the protestants but do u really want union with their corrupted faith - I think not ?

Of course it would be good and christian when we all were one-no doubt- but there can be no union when there are so a great differences !

I think there is a passage, in the writings of St. Basil the great wich deals exactly with the same question - I will look.

We do not lack an authority that teaches we have Synods and they procclaim Dotctrines when it is neccesary like it was with the uncreated energies …

In CHRIST

Ps I only want to tell u that we are not anti-catholic we are only pro -orthodox, there is a difference.

 

[bobzills]

I want that we are one because thats what Jesus wants…

Is the Catholic Church one? For example, in China, there are two Catholic Churches, the illegal underground Catholic Church and legal government approved Patriotic Catholic Church. And does the governemtn approved Patriotic Catholic Church teach that contraception is wrong or not?

 

[Mickey]

Seeing that you know all this, will you stand and defend her against the Modernist attempt to destroy her or will you depart from her to something that seems more appealing on the outside?

Modernism destroys from the inside out.

 

[Joab_Anias]

We do not lack the Pope if we so u are because theire is no roman Pope anymore ! We do not have an orthodox Patriarch of Rome but u too.

I think this is paranoia. Do you deny Peter was primary even though he sinned?

1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Tit 2:10 Not defrauding, but in all things shewing good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

I do not fear the Scripture - but u know very well that often it depends on the interpretation. Even such sects like the Witnessers of Jehova use Holy Scripture for their heretic stuff.

Thats right, and I apply it with the mind of the Church in the same way the Fathers did to you as well as them who also depart even more sharply.

I only want to say that when u quote Scripture u should interprete in the way of the Church and the Fathers - so we would have to look how they interprete it. It would also good to have union with the protestants but do u really want union with their corrupted faith - I think not ?

It comes back to obedience to the irreversible dogma of the True Church.

Of course it would be good and christian when we all were one-no doubt- but there can be no union when there are so a great differences !

There will be. Or are you to believe Christs prayer will not be answered?

I think there is a passage, in the writings of St. Basil the great wich deals exactly with the same question - I will look.

We do not lack an authority that teaches we have Synods and they procclaim Dotctrines when it is neccesary like it was with the uncreated energies …

And in that sense as I understand it I only see seperate interpretations that say the same things. Though I am saddened that they are seperate in the first place. They shouldn’t be, we should be united for Christs sake.

Ps I only want to tell u that we are not anti-catholic we are only pro -orthodox, there is a difference.

There is a fine line there on both sides I think my friend. I am not anti-EO either. I am pro-Christ. His will comes before any tradition of men.

Let us always remember:

Eph 4:3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.