Why would a Roman Catholic become Orthodox?

[Joab_Anias]

If your Church is wrong, we not only were justified in resisting reunion, we had a positive duty to do so. Truth always trumps political expediency.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

Joh 17:11 And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Eph 4:2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity.
Eph 4:3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

Eph 4:13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and to that doctrine which is according to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 Conflicts of men corrupted in mind and who are destitute of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, fly these things: and pursue justice, godliness, faith, charity, patience, mildness.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called and be it confessed a good confession before many witnesses.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Co 10:32 Be without offence to the Jew, and to the Gentiles and to the church of God:

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God.
1Co 11:17 Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18 For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you. And in part I believe it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved may be made manifest among you.

 

[Stathios]

With respect here is some more painful truth. The early church flourished under persecution. The muslim and communist rule thing does not reflect church history where those under persecution had such fervor for the Gospel of Christ that the church grew the most under persecution, not the least. Also, it was the pressure of the Muslims that led to the final schism in the 1450’s. The muslims wanted the eastern churches seperated from Rome and the muslims got what they wanted. It was giving into the muslims that has so stifled the Orthodox Churches for centuries. This is really the crux of the biscuit, not theology, not the pope, but caving in to the muslims. Every Orthodox person should really consider this history. It is not all about the romantic version of the filioque and papal power or even the often overblown events of 1054. It was muslim conquest and the Eastern Bishops choosing them over their brothers in the west that led to the final schism. The east made the wrong choice and the west defeated the hordes. Had they chosen unity they would likely have been spared decades of muslim rule.

As for 2,300 churches, that had alot more to so with immigration than evangelization. Other St. Herman of Alaska I am not aware of any serious missionary efforts the North America. Of course, Protestants put the Orthodox and the Catholic Church to shame these days when it comes to evangelizing. So I agree with you on this I don’t think modern Catholics can brag about evangelizing. They are trying to re-evanglize their own. Of course the Orthodox are in desperate need of this too. It is the converts who are the life blood of both churches in recent years.

I also agree that hippy priests have make a mockery of the Mass and I am sympathetic as to why Catholics would become Orthodox for this reason alone. But not on historical grounds.

Brother it is believed that The Communist and Muslims, killed more Christians than the Romans did in the first 3 centuries of Christianity. Over 130 Bishops took a bullet in the back of the head in Russia alone. AND we are only talking about 70 years of communist rule. There are Orthodox Churches that are growing all over the place. The OCA has over 1,000,000 followers. Most of them are Anglo-Saxxon Converts. So were is the ethnic lines in these. Don’t forget The Catholic Church had there ethnic ties at the beginning of the1900s. Italians, Irish, and especially the Byzantine Churches. So I don’t see how that is relevant. Plus there are so many Greek and Antiochian Parishes in The south that most of their layman are Anglo-Saxxon Converts. Trust me I know I have been thru the south.

 

[paradoxy]

The point as I see it is this:
A respectful Liturgy is very important to an Eastern Orthodox.

Yes! Thank you!

 

[bogoljub]

God bless!

Eighth Proceeding of the Seventh Ecumenical Synod

“If anyone breaks any ecclesiastical tradition, written or unwritten, let him be anathema”

From the Life of St. Maximos the confessor:

“*To which church do you belong? To that of Byzantium, of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, or Jerusalem? For all these churches, together with the provinces in subjection to them, are in unity. Therefore, if you also belong to the Catholic Church, enter into communion with us at once, lest fashioning for yourself some new and strange pathway, you fall into that which you do not even expect!”

To this the righteous man wisely replied, “Christ the Lord called that Church the Catholic Church which maintains the true and saving confession of the Faith. It was for this confession that He called Peter blessed, and He declared that He would found His Church upon this confession. However, I wish to know the contents of your confession, on the basis of which all churches, as you say, have entered into communion. If it is not opposed to the truth, then neither will I be separated from it.”*
He did not say that he wants to the church of the “infallable pope” the true faith depends not on the Pope of Rome !

…When the Sixth Ecumenical Synod was finally convened, among those condemned for heresy were four Patriarchs of Constantinople,* one Pope of Rome, *one Patriarch of Alexandria, two Patriarchs of Antioch and a multitude of other Metropolitans, Archbishops and Bishops. During all those years, that one simple monk was right, and all those notable bishops were wrong.

The Pope of Rome was condemned of Heresy - I think it was Honorios the Pope of old Rome.

Saint Jerome in a letter:

It is not the case that there is one church at Rome and another in all the world beside. Gaul and Britain, Africa and Persia, India and the East worship **one Christ and observe one rule of truth. **If you ask for authority, the world outweighs its capital. Wherever there is a bishop, whether it be at Rome or at Engubium, whether it be Constantinople or at Rhegium, whether it be at Alexandria or at Zoan, his dignity is one and his priesthood is one. Neither the command of wealth nor the lowliness of poverty makes him more a bishop or less a bishop. All alike are successors of the apostles. (Letter CXLVI to Evangelus)

In CHRIST

 

[Melchior]

Brother it is believed that The Communist and Muslims, killed more Christians than the Romans did in the first 3 centuries of Christianity. Over 130 Bishops took a bullet in the back of the head in Russia alone. AND we are only talking about 70 years of communist rule. There are Orthodox Churches that are growing all over the place. The OCA has over 1,000,000 followers. Most of them are Anglo-Saxxon Converts. So were is the ethnic lines in these. Don’t forget The Catholic Church had there ethnic ties at the beginning of the1900s. Italians, Irish, and especially the Byzantine Churches. So I don’t see how that is relevant. Plus there are so many Greek and Antiochian Parishes in The south that most of their layman are Anglo-Saxxon Converts. Trust me I know I have been thru the south.

No argument at all. I will only say, with the greatest respect, and this is just me thinking out loud, nothing more. What, do you think it was about the martyrdom under the communists that did not cause mass conversions in Russia as with the early church? Or in Greece for 400 years for that matter? It seems that Orthodoxy has not been mission minded in various parts of the world for centuries (but that is true for modern Catholics too). What do you attribute that to? I think of the parables and lamp that was covered up. I am genuinely interested in an Orthodox take on this.

 

[Stathios]

No argument at all. I will only say, with the greatest respect, and this is just me thinking out loud, nothing more. What, do you think it was about the martyrdom under the communists that did not cause mass conversions in Russia as with the early church? Or in Greece for 400 years for that matter? It seems that Orthodoxy has not been mission minded in various parts of the world for centuries (but that is true for modern Catholics too). What do you attribute that to? I think of the parables and lamp that was covered up. I am genuinely interested in an Orthodox take on this.

Well the 400 years the Greeks were slavs to The Turks, its like asking a black man in Texas 200 years ago to evangalize. How can he? He has no rights. Plus White people just look down on him. The Turks saw us as subjects. So please try to imagine that.
Now The Communist would not allow missions infact they killed some clergy that did. Church after church was shut DOWN. The communist wanted to kill religion all together. There were not enough priest over the years. If I am not correct there were around 3,000 clergymen in Russia before the Communist era afterwards there was less than 50. Why because the communist killed them all. Its hard to evangelize when there is no Priest to help. Who do you go to if you have questions?

 

[bogoljub]

God bless!

It would be also important for catholics to have a good Liturgy !

Also rcc’s believe:

Lex orandi Lex credendi !
So u pray so u believe !

Please let us not go in circles, u can not divide Worship and Dogma !

St. John of Damaskos said:

Show me your icons u venerate and I will tell what u believe.

Beside of the contemporary “clown masses” ( even the word is horrible) -the roman Mass was long before the Vat II changed and full of innovations.

+It was common in the early church to stand and prostrate during Liturgy -so they changed the old traditional form of prayer, they introduced pews and chairs in imitation of the protestants

+they changed the church music from the orthodox gregorian/ambrosian,…into some opera music of Monteverdi, Mozart, bach…this church music is uncanonical and secular and is forbidden in church

+it was also an rcc tradition that woman stand on the left and man on the right

+woman had to cover their hair

+introducing of secular painting - perhaps michelangelo was a genie and a great artist but his works are complete secular, or the raphael madonnas, …the iconography became secular

+with the secularization of Holy Art, the veneration of holy things also changed, to venerate the holy icons with kissing prostration, incence, the catholic church do not have icons anymore - they have religious pictures for decoration nothing more

+u know that it is forbidden to kneel on sunday by a canon and during pentecoste

+the calender was changed

+I do not write about the beards of priests wich they began to shave

+the way how to make the sign of the cross

+praying facing east ( it is so important that St. John dedicated a chapter to it in his exact exposition…)

+the whole understanding of the Liturgy changed, the whole christian piety has changed in the middle ages,

So the secularization started long befor the Vat II, the masses of today are only an outcome of the long periode of this secularization.
So I can understand the modernist rcc’s because at Mozart’s time his music was “modern” so in our time is rock and techno, when in the middle ages they used “modern” music for the services why not also the music of our days !
The same with art, the madonnas were not painted after a holy and traditional canon, they were painted to please the actual taste, today they use modern art for church decoration wich is often blasphemous and anti-christian

And again I ask u, when everything is ok with your Mass as u want to tell us, why the Mother of God call it blaspemie and great sin ?

Should I tell u all the “messages” the Mother of God gave to different Saints, how to behave in church. Do u know that the great Hierarch Niphon saw her standing in the apse and weeping over the people wich were standing without fear, or when she appeared to Elder Joaniki and told him how God is angered when the chanters are not concentrated, she said they have to be like the Cherubims in Heaven, or St. Parthenje of Kiew, he saw the Theotokos all the time and also Christ, and Christ told him how to behave in Liturgy and he also was allowed to speak with St. John Chrysostom about the Liturgy !

Should I tell what Elder Jakovos experienced often during Holy Liturgy - he was not able to serve the Liturgy because the Altar was so filled with Angels - there was no space for him- he saw the six-winged Seraphim and the many-eyed Cherubim and they covered with their wings the holy gifts even at the Entrance with the chalice he could even feel their wings on his shoulder !
They tried to protect the Holy Gifts - and many Elders have seen the Saints during Liturgy with the Mother of God - and u think it is normal to dance and clapp and play jokes ?

In CHRIST

 

[Joab_Anias]

many Elders have seen the Saints during Liturgy with the Mother of God - and u think it is normal to dance and clapp and play jokes ?

What Church are you from?

Mat 15:3 But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition?

Mar 7:9 And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.

1Pe 1:18 Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers:

 

[Melchior]

Well the 400 years the Greeks were slavs to The Turks, its like asking a black man in Texas 200 years ago to evangalize. How can he? He has no rights. Plus White people just look down on him. The Turks saw us as subjects. So please try to imagine that.
Now The Communist would not allow missions infact they killed some clergy that did. Church after church was shut DOWN. The communist wanted to kill religion all together. There were not enough priest over the years. If I am not correct there were around 3,000 clergymen in Russia before the Communist era afterwards there was less than 50. Why because the communist killed them all. Its hard to evangelize when there is no Priest to help. Who do you go to if you have questions?

Thank you, Stathios. That makes plenty of sense.

Mel

 

[bogoljub]

What Church are you from?

Mat 15:3 But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition?

Mar 7:9 And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.

1Pe 1:18 Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers:

God bless u!

Sorry Joab, but I do not understand your question and what the quotes from Scripture have to do !

In CHRIST

 

[Joab_Anias]

God bless u!

Sorry Joab, but I do not understand your question and what the quotes from Scripture have to do !

In CHRIST

The question is simple. What Church do you attend?

If you don’t understand the scriptures you must ask our Father through the intercession of Jesus and the Saints to give you the grace and wisdom of the Holy Spirit to do so. You can also pray directly to the Holy Spirit for the correct understanding of scripture and wisdom.

Peace.

 

[ForeverAdam]

It would be also important for catholics to have a good Liturgy!

Thank you, bogolijub, for your informative posts. They always strengthen me in my faith. I hope many Roman Catholics learn from them as well. The statements by several Roman Catholics on this thread make me sad. They act as if humble fidelity to our ancient traditions is a sign of stagnation and that we need union with Papal Rome so that we can grow into a new era of abandonment of these traditions. I hope they begin to understand that while the expression of Faith organically develops, that traditions are never to be separated from the doctrine of the Church nor should they be abandoned, but maintained and strengthened.

God bless,

Adam

 

[Joab_Anias]

Thank you, bogolijub, for your informative posts. They always strengthen me in my faith. I hope many Roman Catholics learn from them as well. The statements by several Roman Catholics on this thread make me sad. They act as if humble fidelity to our ancient traditions is a sign of stagnation and that we need union with Papal Rome so that we can grow into a new era of abandonment of these traditions. I hope they begin to understand that while the expression of Faith organically develops, that traditions are never to be separated from the doctrine of the Church nor should they be abandoned, but maintained and strengthened.

God bless,

Adam

Fidelity to Rome is the ancient tradition that your Church denied. You don’t have to abandon your traditions. This isn’t expected of any Eastern Catholic Churches. We welcome and encourage the preservation of culture and custom. What we cannot encourage is the departure from sound doctrine. The problem isn’t the customs, culture and traditions, its that you wont accept the doctrines or unity. Plain and simple.

Eph 4:3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For there shall be a time (the schism) when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and to that doctrine which is according to godliness,

Tit 1:9 Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers.

Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things that become sound doctrine:

Tit 2:10 Not defrauding, but in all things shewing good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.

1Ti 4:6 These things proposing to the brethren, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished up in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which thou hast attained unto.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: *let all things be done to edification. *

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

Eph 4:13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:

Peace.

 

[bobzills]

You don’t have to abandon your traditions. This isn’t expected of any Eastern Catholic Churches. We welcome and encourage the preservation of culture and custom.

I have read complaints from Eastern Catholics concerning the Latin inculturation of their Churches.

 

[psalmody]

Fidelity to Rome is the ancient tradition that your Church denied. You don’t have to abandon your traditions. This isn’t expected of any Eastern Catholic Churches. We welcome and encourage the preservation of culture and custom. What we cannot encourage is the departure from sound doctrine. The problem isn’t the customs, culture and traditions, its that you wont accept the doctrines or unity. Plain and simple.

Do you believe all the Eastern Patriarchates and churches should be under the jurisdiction , total rule and authority of the Head bishop/pope of Rome ?

these include Constantinople,Antioch,Alexandria,Jerusalem,Russia,Serbia,Romania, and others.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I have read complaints from Eastern Catholics concerning the Latin inculturation of their Churches.

Yes I know, they aren’t expected to enculturate by the Church though. Maybe some have pushed it and if they have I am sure it was with the intention of unity through uniformity which has been called a mistake by the Church. I don’t know if this came from those in the western Church or within the Eastern Church themselves.

I am sure that some enculturation is unavoidable depending where you are however who in there right Christian mind would fault anyone for wanting to preserve their culture and traditions.

If we look at history the Church has always assimilated/incorporated what is good from the world and even some things that I think may not have been so good like all the Monarchical pomp.

Surely what we each hold as time honored traditions/personal devotions that are efficacious for our spiritual life is more than ok to adopt from each other so long as no one is causing schism over it.

We still fall under the same umbrella of Catholic. Scripture tells us not to scandalize our brethren and those we evangelize in this way.

The only problem I see is if there is a lack of respect for the others culture and custom which isn’t a Christian attitude to begin with or possibly flattering another’s custom by insincere adoption of some practice simply to appease another for some reason.

Peace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Do you believe all the Eastern Patriarchates and churches should be under the jurisdiction , total rule and authority of the Head bishop/pope of Rome ?

these include Constantinople,Antioch,Alexandria,Jerusalem,Russia,Serbia,Romania, and others.

Definitly not total rule no.

Rome isn’t tyranical, it is the epicenter of Chritianity. I do believe in a primacy in the same example of the apostles and I think there should be a unified voice among the apostolic churches.

Its up to our Fathers and Patriarchs to work that out and I believe eventually they will. Christs prayer for Christian unity must come to fruition.

Peace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Relative scripture for post #335:

Scripture tells us not to scandalize our brethren and those we evangelize in this way.

Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light: and there is no scandal in him.

 

[psalmody]

Joab Anias,

Have a read of this and tell me if you agree.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/papal_primacy.htm

 

[Stathios]

Joab Anias,

Have a read of this and tell me if you agree.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/papal_primacy.htm

Notice how it was written in 1302. Most of the writting to help create the surprem authority of the Pope comes after the break. 1870 and so forth. But yet they say oh it was allways there. RIGHT