Why would a Roman Catholic become Orthodox?

[paradoxy]

What are you talking about that the first Christians had no communion?

Its right in the bible my friend.

.

Of course they did. And of course the Orthodox have Communion. Your Church recognizes it as ‘valid’.

You are not debating Sola Scriptura Protestants here.

ForeverAdam, I understand your frustration with this thread and I share it. Still I hope you won’t go completely away, as that would all but finish the job of eradicating the EO from CAF. Which, after all, I still believe would be sad.

I guess I’m still hoping for some kind of informative, sane and charitable dialog between RC and EO here. If it proves to be impossible, I hope no one will mind me posting a link to an Orthodox board where Catholics are also welcome for such discussions (the link has already been posted by a mod on the new EC forum, so I see no harm in re-posting it here):

orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php

God bless all.

 

[Stathios]

Of course they did. And of course the Orthodox have Communion. Your Church recognizes it as ‘valid’.

You are not debating Sola Scriptura Protestants here.

ForeverAdam, I understand your frustration with this thread and I share it. Still I hope you won’t go completely away, as that would all but finish the job of eradicating the EO from CAF. Which, after all, I still believe would be sad.

I guess I’m still hoping for some kind of informative, sane and charitable dialog between RC and EO here. If it proves to be impossible, I hope no one will mind me posting a link to an Orthodox board where Catholics are also welcome for such discussions (the link has already been posted by a mod on the new EC forum, so I see no harm in re-posting it here):

orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php

God bless all.

He was responding to my comment that he misunderstood, for I forgot to put a “?” after my sarcastic question.

“The first Christian had no communion?”

 

[jam070406]

Of course they did. And of course the Orthodox have Communion. Your Church recognizes it as ‘valid’.

You are not debating Sola Scriptura Protestants here.

ForeverAdam, I understand your frustration with this thread and I share it. Still I hope you won’t go completely away, as that would all but finish the job of eradicating the EO from CAF. Which, after all, I still believe would be sad.

I guess I’m still hoping for some kind of informative, sane and charitable dialog between RC and EO here. If it proves to be impossible, I hope no one will mind me posting a link to an Orthodox board where Catholics are also welcome for such discussions (the link has already been posted by a mod on the new EC forum, so I see no harm in re-posting it here):

orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php

God bless all.

I’m not sure why you would feel this way. Is posting pictures of liturgical abuses and speaking negatively of the RCC charitable dialogue? More than a few Catholics have stated that this is a tragedy in the Church right now. It sickens us also and it’s not the norm. Even ForeverAdam (an Orthodox christian) stated that people should back off with the issue of abuses, as such abuse is not approved of in Catholic teaching. Even when we state what the Church teaches the Orthodox ignore or turn a blind eye. It’s a shame that you think fruitful dialogue is having people only see your way. Give credit to those trying to defend their Catholic Faith and dodge insults. I don’t why YOU would be frustrated.

I really don’t see how visiting this other forum will produce fruitful dialogue for Catholics. It is a majority of the same people that were here bashing our Church with their polemic, anti-Catholic rhetoric. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true.

 

[Joab_Anias]

What changes did we make Mr. Smarty pants?

Simple, read the councils you accept.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I really don’t see how visiting this other forum will produce fruitful dialogue for Catholics. It is a majority of the same people that were here bashing our Church with their polemic, anti-Catholic rhetoric. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true.

I have spent some time on the other forum mentioned. I must give the mods there credit. They do not tolerate the same tone of uncharitable orthodox polemics that you witnessed here by those you mentioned and is being continued here in the non-catholic forum.

Not to take away from the mods here by any means. I think its just that over there its a much smaller Catholic community and they are able to keep tighter reigns on such disparaging nonsense from non-catholics because they have less ground to cover.

Peace

 

[Stathios]

Simple, read the councils you accept.

We accept the first 7 Ecumenical Councils. AND?

 

[Joab_Anias]

We accept the first 7 Ecumenical Councils. AND?

They all made changes you accepted or you would still be Arians.

 

[Stathios]

I have spent some time on the other forum mentioned. I must give the mods there credit. They do not tolerate the same tone of uncharitable orthodox polemics that you witnessed here by those you mentioned and is being continued here in the non-catholic forum.

Not to take away from the mods here by any means. I think its just that over there its a much smaller Catholic community and they are able to keep tighter reigns on such disparaging nonsense from non-catholics because they have less ground to cover.

Peace

I am here to Speak the Truth. Sometimes the Truth Hurts. And It is not The Orthodox on this Forum who started to use the term Clown Mass it is a fellow Catholic who used the term. NOT US. And a lot of the abuses I am talking about are the abuses my Cradle Roman Catholic Mother is talking about as well as other Cradle Catholics that are frustrated with what is going on. I recommend that yall write to The Pope because the Bishops here have ignored American Catholics for too long. If that does not work then I ask yall to be Orthodox or go To a Byzantine Catholic Parish. It will be hard to find for some of yall, for I believe there are only 60 Parishes here in The States. Compared to 2,300 Orthodox Churches. It never seems to amaze me how Catholics talk about The Orthodox NOT Evangelizing enough and of course I told you why (Muslim Rule, Communism)
But Yall fail to notice that your Byzantine Bretheren have done an even more poorly job. Yet they suffered with us Orthodox in Muslim and communist rule.

 

[Stathios]

They all made changes you accepted or you would still be Arians.

What???

 

[Contarini]

They all made changes you accepted or you would still be Arians.

Are you saying that all Christians before Nicea were Arians? I think Athanasius would punch you in the face for that, if he weren’t beyond such passions and peacefully enjoying the Beatific Vision

I take your point–the Orthodox do have an overly static view of doctrinal definition. Christians before Nicea were not generally either Arians or full-blown Trinitarians. But your statement was very poorly worded.

Edwin

 

[paradoxy]

I’m not sure why you would feel this way. Is posting pictures of liturgical abuses and speaking negatively of the RCC charitable dialogue? More than a few Catholics have stated that this is a tragedy in the Church right now. It sickens us also and it’s not the norm. Even ForeverAdam (an Orthodox christian) stated that people should back off with the issue of abuses, as such abuse is not approved of in Catholic teaching. Even when we state what the Church teaches the Orthodox ignore or turn a blind eye. It’s a shame that you think fruitful dialogue is having people only see your way. Give credit to those trying to defend their Catholic Faith and dodge insults. I don’t why YOU would be frustrated.

I really don’t see how visiting this other forum will produce fruitful dialogue for Catholics. It is a majority of the same people that were here bashing our Church with their polemic, anti-Catholic rhetoric. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true.

You misunderstand me completely. The insistence on the issue of abuses on this thread is exactly what frustrates me, as it does Adam. I find it unfair, uncharitable and not really to the point. I actually haven’t seen this kind of ‘talk’ at all on the other forum, which is why I posted the link.

 

[paradoxy]

And It is not The Orthodox on this Forum who started to use the term Clown Mass it is a fellow Catholic who used the term. NOT US.

I’m afraid I have to confess I was the first to use the word, and I’m Orthodox… but I only used it to demonstrate something completely different (how it may be the US that is a happy breeding ground for all sorts of changes, as my Catholic friend, who’s lived and attended Mass all over the world, except the US, has never even heard of those…) Sigh.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Are you saying that all Christians before Nicea were Arians? I think Athanasius would punch you in the face for that, if he weren’t beyond such passions and peacefully enjoying the Beatific Vision

I take your point–the Orthodox do have an overly static view of doctrinal definition. Christians before Nicea were not generally either Arians or full-blown Trinitarians. But your statement was very poorly worded.

Edwin

I wasn’t saying that at all. If you look at the context of the reply it was to the exaserbating statement that the EO have never changed anything.

I pointed out they accepted the first 7 councils and if they hadn’t they may very well still be in the heresies corrected by them.

One of the many was Arianism. Which by my understanding was predominantly in the East.

To say that Constantine didn’t change anything in Constantinople would also be a denial of history and the continually changing church through the very real guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I can also show how many changes in Orthodoxy have occured since the schisms but what would be the point of arguing any futher with obstinate anti-Catholicism. I’d rather wash my hands of it.

I’m not willing to re-raise the development of doctrine debate with such uncharitable posters as those here who are bashing the Catholic Church. They know who they are and imho they make all Orthodox look bad and should have been banned along with the other polemical proselytizers.

 

[paradoxy]

I have spent some time on the other forum mentioned. I must give the mods there credit. …]

Not to take away from the mods here by any means. I think its just that over there its a much smaller Catholic community and they are able to keep tighter reigns on such disparaging nonsense from non-catholics because they have less ground to cover.

Peace

Yes, that’s why I posted the link - there does not seem to be too much bitterness there.

Actually, it’s an Orthodox community, but all are welcome and there is a Catholic/Orthodox discussion forum.

 

[ForeverAdam]

There’s nothing wrong with a children’s mass or children clapping.

We are taught in Holy Scripture to maintain the traditions of our Faith. These refer to the traditions that the Church develops in her practice of the Faith. What is “tradition” in one age is to remain “tradition” in another age. Read the words of St. Basil the Great:

Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us in a mystery by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force. And these no one will gainsay - no one, at all events, who is even moderately versed in the institutions of the Church. For were we to attempt to reject such customs as have no written authority, on the ground that the importance they possess is small, we should unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals; or, rather, should make our public definition a mere phrase and nothing more. For instance, to take the first and most general example, who is thence who has taught us in writing to sign with the sign of the cross those who have trusted in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ? What writing has taught us to turn to the East at the prayer? – On the Holy Spirit, chapter 27.

St. Basil goes on to enumerate many other traditions, especially those associated with the Holy Liturgy. It was once a tradition in your Church (and still is in ours) to not have specialized liturgies for groups or to allow clapping and laughing in the nave. Apparently, your Church has forgotten the words of the Holy Fathers and the spirit of the ancient Church, which condemned such rejection of past tradition. This is not to mention the many radical changes that were made by the Pope of Rome in the creation of a new Latin liturgical rite after Vatican II. You often say that the Orthodox Church isn’t founded on the rock of St. Peter. However, with the multitude of changes that the Popes have made to his Church’s patrimony since the Schism, it appears your Church has forgotten that a rock ought to be a sign of stability, not endless innovation.

God bless,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

A children’s mass is not traditional, but there is nothing wrong with it, unless it degenerates into a clown mass. The apostles would be hard put to disapprove of a children’s mass,since Jesus told them to let the children come to him.

A specialized liturgy for children is, itself, degeneration from the ancient standard of our Fathers. Like the quote from St. Basil shows, we must zealously maintain tradition and not make it an option in the big tent. Furthermore, Christ’s words about the children coming to Him have traditionally been interpreted as being fulfilled in the Church offering Chrismation and Holy Communion to infants. It still is interpreted this way in Orthodoxy. Sadly, your Church rejected this traditional practice many years ago and has now replaced it with the innovative children’s liturgy. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, a desire to maintain the ancient traditions of the Faith is a really good reason for a Roman Catholic to convert to Orthodoxy.

God bless,

Adam

 

[bogoljub]

God bless u all!

1. I say it again the fotos I posted are not from abuses or some bad exceptions, they are the common form of Rcc Mass in west Europe !!! It is with the blessing of the Bishops and Cardinals !
   Should I go to the parish church of my town and send u all !

So Adam it is not unfair because this is the offiicial form here - but of course here are some rcc priests who are against that form but they are only a few and can do nothing ! When Pope Benedict was here in Köln it was the same and open air mass with dancing teens and so on…

They are not abuses !!!

1. Dear Joab forgive me but to say such Masses are not blasphemous and even Traditional - it sounds sooooo grazy to me ! It is open blasphemie - should I tell u what my class mates in school did during the preparation for confirmation ???

To say that the rcc is the Traditional one and the true - how blind must u be to say such horrible things ?

1. But even the Mass of the Middle Ages is not Traditional or should we analyse the Masses of Mozart ( a famous freemasonry)
   or the other secular compositions ?? Should I tell u what the church fathers say about church music ??
   Church music is not for “decoration” or entertaiment it is the icon of the angelic music from above ! Like the whole Liturgy - we have many testimonies when Saints have seen the Liturgy in Heaven and it was the same like in orthodox churches !

Should I really start to post quotes from the church fathers about behavier in Church during the allholy Mysteries ? Or will u deny even the Holy Fathers ? Do u know that Tertullian wrote it is forbidden even to sit down AFTER prayer and that it is a shame - should I tell u what St. Augustin wrote about behavier in church and how we should praise God ?

IN CHRIST

I did not pick the most horrible fotos out and show them here - no this would be really unfair, I posted fotos of ordinary Mass celebrated here every Sunday and Joab YES the have real Liturgy there and not a childrens feast - IT IS DURING LITURGY !!!

 

[Joab_Anias]

We are taught in Holy Scripture to maintain the traditions of our Faith. These refer to the traditions that the Church develops in her practice of the Faith. What is “tradition” in one age is to remain “tradition” in another age. Read the words of St. Basil the Great:

Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us in a mystery by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force. And these no one will gainsay - no one, at all events, who is even moderately versed in the institutions of the Church. For were we to attempt to reject such customs as have no written authority, on the ground that the importance they possess is small, we should unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals; or, rather, should make our public definition a mere phrase and nothing more. For instance, to take the first and most general example, who is thence who has taught us in writing to sign with the sign of the cross those who have trusted in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ? What writing has taught us to turn to the East at the prayer? – On the Holy Spirit, chapter 27.

St. Basil goes on to enumerate many other traditions, especially those associated with the Holy Liturgy. It was once a tradition in your Church (and still is in ours) to not have specialized liturgies for groups or to allow clapping and laughing in the nave. Apparently, your Church has forgotten the words of the Holy Fathers and the spirit of the ancient Church, which condemned such rejection of past tradition. This is not to mention the many radical changes that were made by the Pope of Rome in the creation of a new Latin liturgical rite after Vatican II. You often say that the Orthodox Church isn’t founded on the rock of St. Peter. However, with the multitude of changes that the Popes have made to his Church’s patrimony since the Schism, it appears your Church has forgotten that a rock ought to be a sign of stability, not endless innovation.

God bless,

Adam

The sign of stability is the Moral teaching and Dogma that are irreversible. Not the traditions of men. Thats the same mistake the Pharasees made and why they were left behind in the Old Covenant and Jesus called them a stiff necked brood of vipers.

You forget that Jesus said not to suffer the little children to come to Him and are missing the nature of the Holy Spirit who is neither timid nor somber.

Lastly what the Church binds on earth is also bound in heaven. To some extent we decide out tradtions, they do not decide us. The liturgy remains pure dispite any mistakes that people make and these complaints are not incorperated into the GIRM in any way. I dont particularly approve of clapping in Church either but its not a part of the liturgy and who am I to stifle the gratitude of people toward their brethren. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

 

[ForeverAdam]

So Adam it is not unfair because this is the offiicial form here - but of course here are some rcc priests who are against that form but they are only a few and can do nothing ! When Pope Benedict was here in Köln it was the same and open air mass with dancing teens and so on…

They are not abuses !!!

Hmmm, maybe you have a point. I still thought that the liturgical law of the Latin Church was binding under sin. It used to be like that before Vatican II. However, that may have changed. I remember seeing the Pope on television a few months ago in green and blue vestments and was appalled. Maybe liturgical law in the Latin Church is just a model and not really strict law? I mean if the Pope can allow things outside the GIRM at his own Masses, maybe it really isn’t binding after all? I hope this isn’t true, as it would confirm my worst suspicion of the Latin Church – Even the concept of tradition has been completely replaced by creativity.

God bless,

Adam

 

[East_and_West]

Hmmm, maybe you have a point. I still thought that the liturgical law of the Latin Church was binding under sin. It used to be like that before Vatican II. However, that may have changed. I remember seeing the Pope on television a few months ago in green and blue vestments and was appalled. Maybe liturgical law in the Latin Church is just a model and not really strict law? I mean if the Pope can allow things outside the GIRM at his own Masses, maybe it really isn’t binding after all? I hope this isn’t true, as it would confirm my worst suspicion of the Latin Church – Even the concept of tradition has been completely replaced by creativity.

God bless,

Adam

You were appalled by grean and blue vesments? WOW. I am sure Jesus was right there with you complaining about how green and blue were his least favorite colors…