Why would a Roman Catholic become Orthodox?

[Joab_Anias]

God bless u all!

1. I say it again the fotos I posted are not from abuses or some bad exceptions, they are the common form of Rcc Mass in west Europe !!! It is with the blessing of the Bishops and Cardinals !
   Should I go to the parish church of my town and send u all !

So Adam it is not unfair because this is the offiicial form here - but of course here are some rcc priests who are against that form but they are only a few and can do nothing ! When Pope Benedict was here in Köln it was the same and open air mass with dancing teens and so on…

They are not abuses !!!

Do you understand the rubrics of the Mass and the GIRM and canons? There is appropriate times that cultural events can be incorperated into the Mass but they are not part of the Liturgy.

1. Dear Joab forgive me but to say such Masses are not blasphemous and even Traditional - it sounds sooooo grazy to me ! It is open blasphemie - should I tell u what my class mates in school did during the preparation for confirmation ???

To say that the rcc is the Traditional one and the true - how blind must u be to say such horrible things ?

Why is it blasphemous to celebrate life. It can come off as irreverant yes but I think your missing the definition of the word blasphemous here.

1. But even the Mass of the Middle Ages is not Traditional or should we analyse the Masses of Mozart ( a famous freemasonry)
   or the other secular compositions ?? Should I tell u what the church fathers say about church music ??
   Church music is not for “decoration” or entertaiment it is the icon of the angelic music from above ! Like the whole Liturgy - we have many testimonies when Saints have seen the Liturgy in Heaven and it was the same like in orthodox churches !

Should I really start to post quotes from the church fathers about behavier in Church during the allholy Mysteries ? Or will u deny even the Holy Fathers ? Do u know that Tertullian wrote it is forbidden even to sit down AFTER prayer and that it is a shame - should I tell u what St. Augustin wrote about behavier in church and how we should praise God ?

It wouldn’t matter no. The Church grows and is lead by the Holy Spirit. What it binds on Earth is bound in Heaven. The Dogma are irreversibly defined and the Moral teaching is constant. The rest is that of men and subject to change. Else we should still be sneaking around in caves holding Mass in secret. I love St. Augustine but he wasn’t perfect either.

I did not pick the most horrible fotos out and show them here - no this would be really unfair, I posted fotos of ordinary Mass celebrated here every Sunday and Joab YES the have real Liturgy there and not a childrens feast - IT IS DURING LITURGY !!!

I doubt it is.
Full Text of the English Roman Catholic Mass
with standing, kneeling & sitting guidelines and Eucharistic Prayers

I know there is some room in the rubrics in the beginning of the Mass and at the end to do certain things out of the ordinary that may incorperate children or good things from other cultures.

If this Church you mention is departing from those rubrics, canon and the GIRM and doing anything profane then they are abuses and not official by any means.

Where in scripture does Jesus suggest we should be oppressed by our own scruples?

 

[ForeverAdam]

The sign of stability is the Moral teaching and Dogma that are irreversible. Not the traditions of men. Thats the same mistake the Pharasees made and why they were left behind in the Old Covenant and Jesus called them a stiff necked brood of vipers.

Did you read the quote by St. Basil that I provided? He doesn’t make a distinction between doctrine and supposed “traditions of men.” He even says that we shouldn’t discount the traditional expressions of Faith as of small importance, lest we injure the Gospel at its very essence. This sounds more Orthodox than Roman Catholic.

You forget that Jesus said not to suffer the little children to come to Him and are missing the nature of the Holy Spirit who is neither timid nor somber.

We still interpret these words as referring to allowing infants to receive Chrismation and Holy Communion, not letting them cavort before the holy altar in a unique liturgy provided for them. Remember, a sign of the true Church is a fidelity to Tradition in all its forms not rejection of time-honored tradition in how that Faith is expressed.

Lastly what the Church binds on earth is also bound in heaven. To some extent we decide out tradtions, they do not decide us.

With such an attitude, neither St. Basil nor any of the other Holy Fathers would recognize you as a member of their Church. I don’t see this attitude reflected at all in my reading of the writings and practice of the early Church. I don’t even see it in the writings of your own Church before Vatican II. The ancient Church zealously guarded her traditions as opposed to changing them according to whim or the zeitgeist.

The liturgy remains pure dispite any mistakes that people make and these complaints are not incorperated into the GIRM in any way. I dont particularly approve of clapping in Church either but its not a part of the liturgy and who am I to stifle the gratitude of people toward their brethren. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

I only desire to keep the Faith and practice of my forefathers, intact. Your Church should do no less if it claims to the ancient Church of Christ.

God bless,

Adam

 

[bogoljub]

The sign of stability is the Moral teaching and Dogma that are irreversible. Not the traditions of men. Thats the same mistake the Pharasees made and why they were left behind in the Old Covenant and Jesus called them a stiff necked brood of vipers.

You forget that Jesus said not to suffer the little children to come to Him and are missing the nature of the Holy Spirit who is neither timid nor somber.

Lastly what the Church binds on earth is also bound in heaven. To some extent we decide out tradtions, they do not decide us. The liturgy remains pure dispite any mistakes that people make and these complaints are not incorperated into the GIRM in any way. I dont particularly approve of clapping in Church either but its not a part of the liturgy and who am I to stifle the gratitude of people toward their brethren. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

God bless!

What u are writing misses complete the point ! We know from ancient apostolic writings how children should behave in church !
Do u not know the ancient Liturgys ( of the Apostels …were it is written that the Deacons had to look for the children that they make any noise and be qiet and stand still - do u think we are better than the Fathers of old ?

The Liturgy did not remain pure - absolute not - many rcc’s will tell u the same.

When we speak of Tradition we mean the One Holy Apostolic Tradition and not custom of man. The apostolic Tradition can not be changed it comes directly from the Holy Spirit !

But wait let us see what the church fathers say.

In CHRIST

 

[Joab_Anias]

Hmmm, maybe you have a point. I still thought that the liturgical law of the Latin Church was binding under sin. It used to be like that before Vatican II. However, that may have changed. I remember seeing the Pope on television a few months ago in green and blue vestments and was appalled. Maybe liturgical law in the Latin Church is just a model and not really strict law? I mean if the Pope can allow things outside the GIRM at his own Masses, maybe it really isn’t binding after all? I hope this isn’t true, as it would confirm my worst suspicion of the Latin Church – Even the concept of tradition has been completely replaced by creativity.

God bless,

Adam

We are a conglomerate of 23 Churches all with their own tradtions and cultural customs yet the important things remain undefiled.

Even among yourselves, go to another country and find the differences. They are neither profane or appauling but who we are as a species. You have grown appart from us in the last 1000 years haven’t you? Are you telling me the Church didn’t have the art it has before we were seperated? This is part of culture and tradtion why? Because Jesus told us too? No because men made it tradtion. It is then not Gospel and can change.

 

[Joab_Anias]

God bless!
What u are writing misses complete the point ! We know from ancient apostolic writings how children should behave in church !

You beat down your kids all you like. We lift ours up. Sorry you think Jesus words miss the point.

Do u not know the ancient Liturgys ( of the Apostels …were it is written that the Deacons had to look for the children that they make any noise and be qiet and stand still - do u think we are better than the Fathers of old ?

I don’t say better, just improved.

The Liturgy did not remain pure - absolute not - many rcc’s will tell u the same.

Sure they were abused/oppressed children too and know no difference and now suffer from scruples too.

When we speak of Tradition we mean the One Holy Apostolic Tradition and not custom of man. The apostolic Tradition can not be changed it comes directly from the Holy Spirit !

Thats what we have. Imagine a Mass said by Peter and Paul and how it must have been. Then comapare it to your own DL with all its icons and pomp. I guess its changed huh?

But wait let us see what the church fathers say.

Don’t waste your time because I won’t be wasting mine to counter it. My Church Fathers are alive and continued having councils and growing in holiness long after the schism.

 

[paradoxy]

We are a conglomerate of 23 Churches all with their own tradtions and cultural customs yet the important things remain undefiled.

Even among yourselves, go to another country and find the differences. .

Perhaps we differ in what we consider important. For the Orthodox, it is Tradition that is important, all of it, the whole package - the Liturgy, the iconography, the music, the doctrine… all of it. We don’t think of it as ‘cultural’ or just ‘art’ - all these are part of our faith, not compartmentalized.

I have been to other Orthodox countries. I’m from Serbia and have attended Divine Liturgies in different churches in Greece and Bulgaria. I hardly speak a word in any of these languages, but I knew at every point what was going on, because we share the same unchanged Liturgy. Apparently, OTOH, two neighboring RC parishes’ Masses can differ greatly. When you are Orthodox, you know what to expect.

And we most certainly do not oppress our children. They participate fully from infancy, joyfully and respectfully. Babies are held, toddlers can walk around (no pews, remember), small children can be allowed to walk out for a while and play - we respect their ‘limitations’, but we also respect their full human dignity and allow them to go to Christ and receive Him in the Eucharist.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Did you read the quote by St. Basil that I provided? He doesn’t make a distinction between doctrine and supposed “traditions of men.” He even says that we shouldn’t discount the traditional expressions of Faith as of small importance, lest we injure the Gospel at its very essence. This sounds more Orthodox than Roman Catholic.

No one Saint speaks for the Church. Watch the USCCB on EWTN going on now and see how it really works.

We still interpret these words as referring to allowing infants to receive Chrismation and Holy Communion, not letting them cavort before the holy altar in a unique liturgy provided for them. Remember, a sign of the true Church is a fidelity to Tradition in all its forms not rejection of time-honored tradition in how that Faith is expressed.

We don’t reject time honored tradtion, we follow the Holy Spirit who fulfills our traditions.

With such an attitude, neither St. Basil nor any of the other Holy Fathers would recognize you as a member of their Church. I don’t see this attitude reflected at all in my reading of the writings and practice of the early Church. I don’t even see it in the writings of your own Church before Vatican II. The ancient Church zealously guarded her traditions as opposed to changing them according to whim or the zeitgeist.

Ah you touched on it. That Vat II was a dawning of a new age. Those are the consenus of the Fathers and were we are being led by the Holy Spirit. I can’t help it if your stuck like Lots wife because you looked back. I would suggest though if you follow the progression of History from the middle ages you will see exactly how we have arrived at where we are. We are heading for a one world tradition just as Jesus desires. See my sig.

I only desire to keep the Faith and practice of my forefathers, intact. Your Church should do no less if it claims to the ancient Church of Christ.

That is understandable but sentimental. We have a richness of history that is undeniably immense. The marks of the true Church will always be evident regardless of how tradtions change. I do not presume to suggest to the Church how she should be. I respectfully follow where she leads for in so doing the Gates of Hell shall not prevail over me either.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Do you understand the rubrics of the Mass and the GIRM and canons? There is appropriate times that cultural events can be incorperated into the Mass but they are not part of the Liturgy.

Why is it blasphemous to celebrate life. It can come off as irreverant yes but I think your missing the definition of the word blasphemous here.

It wouldn’t matter no. The Church grows and is lead by the Holy Spirit. What it binds on Earth is bound in Heaven. The Dogma are irreversibly defined and the Moral teaching is constant. The rest is that of men and subject to change. Else we should still be sneaking around in caves holding Mass in secret. I love St. Augustine but he wasn’t perfect either.

I doubt it is.
Full Text of the English Roman Catholic Mass
with standing, kneeling & sitting guidelines and Eucharistic Prayers

I know there is some room in the rubrics in the beginning of the Mass and at the end to do certain things out of the ordinary that may incorperate children or good things from other cultures.

If this Church you mention is departing from those rubrics, canon and the GIRM and doing anything profane then they are abuses and not official by any means.

Where in scripture does Jesus suggest we should be oppressed by our own scruples?

I don’t think this guy even bothers to read the GIRM and the Rubrics. Oh the ignorance of an one E. Orthodox who insist they aren’t Liturgical Abuses.

 

[bogoljub]

God bless!
St. John Chrysostom, how to beahve in the Temple of God:

**Think, O Man, of Who it is Who is close to thee in this tremendous sacrifice, and of who it is with whom you are to call upon God; that is, of the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the other heavenly powers. **Remember who are celebrating, together with you, the worship of God. This will suffice to make you recollected in spirit, when you reflect that while enfolded in a body, and clothed in flesh, you have been made worthy, together with the incorporeal powers, to praise the common Lord of all.

Do not then take part in this holy praise, in these sacred mysteries, with a dissipated soul.** Let not your thoughts during this time be occupied with worldly things. Rather, casting all earthly things from your mind, and being wholly turned towards heaven, and as though you were raised on wings as the Seraphim, and were standing at the very threshold of His glory, offer your holy praise to God for all He has done.**
Because of this are we bidden to stand worthily during the time of the divine sacrifice, so that while still on earth we may raise to heaven our dragging thoughts, so that shaking off that dissoluteness which comes from the affairs of this life, we may be enabled to awaken our souls to the presence of God. It is not a question of the hands and feet of the body, for we are speaking here not of runners or gymnasts; but we desire by these words to raise up the powers of our inner thoughts, brought low through temptation. For at the time of the Divine Supper, Brethren, it is not men alone who raise that tremendous cry, for even the Angels are bowed down before the Lord, and the Archangels are in prayer; for them too it is a fitting help, and a helpful Offering.
And as men spread branches of palm before kings, meaning by this to remind them of mercy and compassion, so likewise the angels, bearing before them instead of branches the Body of the Lord, pray to the Lord on behalf of mankind, and all but saying: We beseech Thee on behalf of those whom before Thou didst deign to so love, that for them thou gavest up thy own spirit! We supplicate Thee for those for whom Thou didst shed Thy Blood! We pray to Thee for these for whom Thou hast given Thy body in sacrifice!

Save us, what an evil, to cover up the rottenness of another! For the Lord says that you make yourself a sharer of the retribution that will come to them; and rightly too. For the other had the excuse of passion; though this is no justification for pardon. You had not even this. Why then, since you shared not in his pleasure, do you make yourself an associate and a partaker of his punishment? Neither let you make to me that remark which is laden with selfishness: What is it to me? I mind my own affairs. For then do you best care for your own affairs, if you care for them by helping the need of your neighbour; as Paul has also said: Let no man seek his own, but that which is another’s (I Cor. x. 24), so that he may thus find what is his own. For when one who has sinned sees that all turn away from him, he will then come to see that his sin is something evil and reprehensible. But should he see that others do not consider his conduct to be unworthy, and accept him without complaint, and even encourage and abet him, then will the approval of others, abetting his own corrupt soul corrupt also the judgement of his conscience
Rightly then has the blessed Paul told us: Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls (Heb. xiii. 17). You no doubt carefully look after your own affairs, and if they are well ordered you have no account to render for those of others. But a priest, though his own life should be well ordered, yet, if he has not an earnest care for yours also will go down to Gehenna with the reprobate. And often, though not betrayed by sins of his own, he perishes because of those of others.

And since we have spoken sharply to those who partake unworthily of the Sacred Mysteries, **it is necessary that we speak also to you who minister them, that you may dispense those Gifts with great carefulness: for otherwise your chastisement will not be light. For should you while knowing that a man is unworthy permit him to partake **of the Sacred Table, his blood will be required at your hands. And should he be a general of the imperial army, or a Prefect, or even one whose head is encircled by the imperial diadem, and should he approach while unworthy, forbid him. Yours is a higher authority than his. Take care not to provoke the Lord, by not purifying His Body

IN CHRIST

 

[Joab_Anias]

Perhaps we differ in what we consider important. For the Orthodox, it is Tradition that is important, all of it, the whole package - the Liturgy, the iconography, the music, the doctrine… all of it. We don’t think of it as ‘cultural’ or just ‘art’ - all these are part of our faith, not compartmentalized.

We have all of this too and much more.

I have been to other Orthodox countries. I’m from Serbia and have attended Divine Liturgies in different churches in Greece and Bulgaria. I hardly speak a word in any of these languages, but I knew at every point what was going on, because we share the same unchanged Liturgy. Apparently, OTOH, two neighboring RC parishes’ Masses can differ greatly. When you are Orthodox, you know what to expect.

So I can go into an EC or a RC church no matter where I am and experience everything they have to offer without expectation. I might get suprised by different culture but I know the Liturgy of the Eucharist will be the same and licit across the board regardless if their coffee regular means with cream and sugar or black.

And we most certainly do not oppress our children. They participate fully from infancy, joyfully and respectfully. Babies are held, toddlers can walk around (no pews, remember), small children can be allowed to walk out for a while and play - we respect their ‘limitations’, but we also respect their full human dignity and allow them to go to Christ and receive Him in the Eucharist.

Good that’s great. Then why the complaint about them participating by the other poster? We have something called age of reason and culpability. If you feel it’s efficacious for an inculpable child to receive then good for you. We feel it’s better to catechize them first. St. Paul teaches its necessary to be aware of who your recieving.

 

[ForeverAdam]

You beat down your kids all you like. We lift ours up. Sorry you think Jesus words miss the point.

Following Tradition is “beating down your kids”? Sorry that you think Jesus’ words are divorced from the traditional practice of the Church.

I don’t say better, just improved.

You really should quit calling the Fathers your spiritual ancestors. You clearly don’t feel any fidelity their traditions. Why fool people into thinking that you consider them important?

Sure they were abused/oppressed children too and know no difference and now suffer from scruples too.

Teaching a child to be Orthodox is not oppressing them. The biggest oppression is to trade in ancient, God-inspired traditions for the latest fad. As for scruples – that’s an issue for your Church to handle. We don’t have problems with scruples (maybe because nobody is damned for not keeping the traditions perfectly in Orthodoxy?).

Thats what we have. Imagine a Mass said by Peter and Paul and how it must have been. Then comapare it to your own DL with all its icons and pomp. I guess its changed huh?

You’d be surprised at how much the ancient Christian liturgy resembles the present Orthodox Liturgy. It’s much too complicated to get into here, but the first Christian liturgies derived from the Jewish temple and synagogue liturgies and I know from study that many current Orthodox liturgical traditions can be traced back to the liturgical rites of Old Israel. Our Liturgy is ancient and was passed down from the earliest days of Christianity, albeit with legit organic development that keeps the traditions of the past.

Don’t waste your time because I won’t be wasting mine to counter it. My Church Fathers are alive and continued having councils and growing in holiness long after the schism.

Your last Council didn’t even deal with dogma, as it was a pastoral council. We’re waiting to have a real ecumenical Council, you know in the spirit of the early Church that used ecumenical councils to actually define dogma.

God bless,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

No one Saint speaks for the Church.

You can say that again about your Church.

We don’t reject time honored tradtion, we follow the Holy Spirit who fulfills our traditions.

The Holy Spirit fulfills your traditions by either discarding them completely or making them optional?

Ah you touched on it. That Vat II was a dawning of a new age. Those are the consenus of the Fathers and were we are being led by the Holy Spirit. I can’t help it if your stuck like Lots wife because you looked back. I would suggest though if you follow the progression of History from the middle ages you will see exactly how we have arrived at where we are. We are heading for a one world tradition just as Jesus desires. See my sig.

I agree with you, Vatican II was a dawning of a new age - the opening of your Church to the zeitgeist. Your new one world tradition is no more but the world tradition of the secularized, not the tradition of the Fathers.

That is understandable but sentimental. We have a richness of history that is undeniably immense. The marks of the true Church will always be evident regardless of how tradtions change.

The pearl of the ancient Faith will always be enclosed in the shell of the ancient Church.

I do not presume to suggest to the Church how she should be. I respectfully follow where she leads for in so doing the Gates of Hell shall not prevail over me either.

I can respect that. However, I think you’ve chosen the wrong car and driver to drive you, because your Church is bringing you far from the Holy Fathers and the Church of every age (except the Vatican II age, of course).

God bless,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

We feel it’s better to catechize them first. St. Paul teaches its necessary to be aware of who your recieving.

Funny that your Church only discovered what St. Paul really meant in the 12th century. Sounds fishy to me.

 

[bobzills]

We know from ancient apostolic writings how children should behave in church !
Do u not know the ancient Liturgys ( of the Apostels …were it is written that the Deacons had to look for the children that they make any noise and be qiet and stand still - do u think we are better than the Fathers of old ?

This is an excellent point.
I see children and adults eating popcorn and pretzels at Catholic Masses right before receiving Holy Communion. This indicates a lack of enforced discipline.

 

[bobzills]

You misunderstand me completely. The insistence on the issue of abuses on this thread is exactly what frustrates me, as it does Adam. I find it unfair, uncharitable and not really to the point. I actually haven’t seen this kind of ‘talk’ at all on the other forum, which is why I posted the link.

The point as I see it is this:
A respectful Liturgy is very important to an Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Stathios]

The point as I see it is this:
A respectful Liturgy is very important to an Eastern Orthodox.

Thank You

 

[bobzills]

I’m not sure why you would feel this way. Is posting pictures of liturgical abuses and speaking negatively of the RCC charitable dialogue? More than a few Catholics have stated that this is a tragedy in the Church right now. It sickens us also and it’s not the norm. Even ForeverAdam (an Orthodox christian) stated that people should back off with the issue of abuses, as such abuse is not approved of in Catholic teaching. Even when we state what the Church teaches the Orthodox ignore or turn a blind eye. It’s a shame that you think fruitful dialogue is having people only see your way. Give credit to those trying to defend their Catholic Faith and dodge insults. I don’t why YOU would be frustrated.

I really don’t see how visiting this other forum will produce fruitful dialogue for Catholics. It is a majority of the same people that were here bashing our Church with their polemic, anti-Catholic rhetoric. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true.

An individual said that there was no such thing as a clown Mass, and I thought that this should be honestly answered. It is simply an honest observation that there is more discipline in the way that the ORthodox celebrate their Liturgy, than the way that it is celebrated in many Catholic Churches today. And it is an honest opinion, that this lack of discipline in the Catholic liturgy has spilled over to a lessening of discipline in other areas in the Catholic Church today. Consider what is going on at Catholic colleges or with the annulment situation for example.

 

[Melchior]

I am here to Speak the Truth. Sometimes the Truth Hurts. And It is not The Orthodox on this Forum who started to use the term Clown Mass it is a fellow Catholic who used the term. NOT US. And a lot of the abuses I am talking about are the abuses my Cradle Roman Catholic Mother is talking about as well as other Cradle Catholics that are frustrated with what is going on. I recommend that yall write to The Pope because the Bishops here have ignored American Catholics for too long. If that does not work then I ask yall to be Orthodox or go To a Byzantine Catholic Parish. It will be hard to find for some of yall, for I believe there are only 60 Parishes here in The States. Compared to 2,300 Orthodox Churches. It never seems to amaze me how Catholics talk about The Orthodox NOT Evangelizing enough and of course I told you why (Muslim Rule, Communism)
But Yall fail to notice that your Byzantine Bretheren have done an even more poorly job. Yet they suffered with us Orthodox in Muslim and communist rule.

With respect here is some more painful truth. The early church flourished under persecution. The muslim and communist rule thing does not reflect church history where those under persecution had such fervor for the Gospel of Christ that the church grew the most under persecution, not the least. Also, it was the pressure of the Muslims that led to the final schism in the 1450’s. The muslims wanted the eastern churches seperated from Rome and the muslims got what they wanted. It was giving into the muslims that has so stifled the Orthodox Churches for centuries. This is really the crux of the biscuit, not theology, not the pope, but caving in to the muslims. Every Orthodox person should really consider this history. It is not all about the romantic version of the filioque and papal power or even the often overblown events of 1054. It was muslim conquest and the Eastern Bishops choosing them over their brothers in the west that led to the final schism. The east made the wrong choice and the west defeated the hordes. Had they chosen unity they would likely have been spared decades of muslim rule.

As for 2,300 churches, that had alot more to so with immigration than evangelization. Other St. Herman of Alaska I am not aware of any serious missionary efforts the North America. Of course, Protestants put the Orthodox and the Catholic Church to shame these days when it comes to evangelizing. So I agree with you on this I don’t think modern Catholics can brag about evangelizing. They are trying to re-evanglize their own. Of course the Orthodox are in desperate need of this too. It is the converts who are the life blood of both churches in recent years.

I also agree that hippy priests have make a mockery of the Mass and I am sympathetic as to why Catholics would become Orthodox for this reason alone. But not on historical grounds.

 

[ForeverAdam]

The east made the wrong choice and the west defeated the hordes. Had they chosen unity they would likely have been spared decades of muslim rule.

If your Church is wrong, we not only were justified in resisting reunion, we had a positive duty to do so. Truth always trumps political expediency.

 

[Melchior]

If your Church is wrong, we not only were justified in resisting reunion, we had a positive duty to do so. Truth always trumps political expediency.

Caving to muslim pressure has nothing to do with truth - it is downrigth scandalous. It was about them cutting you off from the part of the church that still had military/poliitcal power that could aid the eastern church. That is not to say the west was full of saints either. But the Orthodox do have tendency ot whitewash their own history. Siding wqith the muslims had devestating effects that lasted centuries.