Why would a Roman Catholic become Orthodox?

[jam070406]

No it was never answered properly. To call one Catholic (Universal) one must have one belief system. The Creed is a statement of the faith. If there are different statements then you have 2 different faiths! The Orthodox all agree on their Priest can marry. The Catholics do not. The Byzantines can but the Romans can not. The Byzantine Catholics confirm their infant baptisms right away. The Romans do not.
The List goes It goes on and on.
Yes there are different rites.
And they have different beliefs.

I don’t know what to tell you then. It seems you saw all the arguments. If the answer was never sufficient for you then there is no need for us to beat a dead horse.

 

[bobzills]

We are not allowed to change anything, not even one JOTA (comma) we have to keep it and give it to the next generation.

I agree that there have been a number of changes in the RCC since Vatican II and perhaps even before that. Of course, the number of changes in the E Orthodox Church has been very small, but is it zero or is it small but non-zero? I heard that there been some small number of changes in the E Orthodox Church:
For examples:

1. Should women wear headcovering in Church? According to 1 Cor 11:4-16, women are to wear headcovering in Church. And Early Christian art shows all women wearing headcovering in Church. Clement of Alexandria and Hermas recommended that women wear headcovering.
   But in the USA today, in the E. Othodox Churches, the teaching has changed and women are allowed to worship in Church without headcovering.
2. The use of musical instrumentation during Liturgical services. This was generally forbidden in the Orthodox Churches and it was recommended to use only the human voice unaccompanied by any musical instrumentation. However, the teaching has been changed and there are Greek Orthodox Churches in the USA which allow organ music.
3. The use of contraceptives. It had been previously taught that the use of contraceptives was wrong, however, now they are allowed under certain restricted circumstances. An E. Orthodox priest told me that in many cases, he would allow them to be used by a married couple if they already had 3 children.

 

[jam070406]

God bless!

Please forgive me but I have the impression that the gates of Hell had prevailed the rcc church ( of course not all members).

The orthodox church also faced many storms- she had not really peace for a long while ! You only have to remember the cruseaders, the turkisch occupation, the communists…and of course even from inside but she stayed the same and did not change - that’s the difference. The devil will always try to tempt us to change the Holy Faith because he knows that when the faith is put away he can do with people what he wants ( we can see and witness this in the modern secular society).

So the most important thing is to keep the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Tradition and never allow any change or innovation !

We are not allowed to change anything, not even one JOTA (comma) we have to keep it and give it to the next generation.
But believe me it is a “great war” to keep this Tradition unchanged, this is the reason St. Paul often wrote keep the tradition- written and unwritten. The faith u received guard and keep…

We also have many prophecies by the many orthodox Elders about the future of the Orthodox Church, the non orthodox and the whole world. And they always warned us not participate in any innovation or alteration of Holy Faith.

In CHRIST

May God bless you in this endeavor.

 

[jam070406]

There are independent Churches in the Catholic world, with different creeds said at Mass. One says a creed with the filioque, another says a creed without.
So the argument concerning ONE Church is really a non-issue and with good will, it can be finessed on both sides to a mutually agreeble conclusion.

Catholics believe the final authority rests with the Pope, the divine office institued by Christ. This is a problem in Orthodoxy. There is no final authority. Are you suggesting the Eastern churches in union with Rome are not subject to the Pope?

 

[jam070406]

I agree that there have been a number of changes in the RCC since Vatican II and perhaps even before that. Of course, the number of changes in the E Orthodox Church has been very small, but is it zero or is it small but non-zero? I heard that there been some small number of changes in the E Orthodox Church:
For examples:

1. Should women wear headcovering in Church? According to 1 Cor 11:4-16, women are to wear headcovering in Church. And Early Christian art shows all women wearing headcovering in Church. Clement of Alexandria and Hermas recommended that women wear headcovering.
   But in the USA today, in the E. Othodox Churches, the teaching has changed and women are allowed to worship in Church without headcovering.
2. The use of musical instrumentation during Liturgical services. This was generally forbidden in the Orthodox Churches and it was recommended to use only the human voice unaccompanied by any musical instrumentation. However, the teaching has been changed and there are Greek Orthodox Churches in the USA which allow organ music.
3. The use of contraceptives. It had been previously taught that the use of contraceptives was wrong, however, now they are allowed under certain restricted circumstances. An E. Orthodox priest told me that in many cases, he would allow them to be used by a married couple if they already had 3 children.

What about tollhouses? The monks of Athos are said to be the keepers of the true faith. They believe the Tollhouse theory don’t they? But others in Orthodoxy see Tollhouses as a heretical innovation. There were heated debates about this on the EC forum.

 

[bogoljub]

God bless !

1. When we discuss spiritual matters we should leave behind us secular understanding because otherwise we will go wrong.

2.To be in Union means not that all have to be complete the same, Peter is not Paul and Paul is not Luke but they all are apsotels. Do u not see the many differences in the Saints and their understanding; some of them think complete different as the other.
3. So the orthodox church is one in Faith and Practice; of course with some national and local differences but this is not contrary to the unity. We have Bishops -the highest is the EP of Constantinopel and we have Synods the canonical Law…SO do not create dis-unity where is unity. But of course we do not need such centralism as catholics - it is spiritual Death !
4. But even in this centralism there are many differences in Practice and understanding
5.We have many proofs that it was the same in the early church and that this centralism was an later innovation, u only have to study the church history - read St. Basil the great and St. Maximos the Confessor u will see the truth–otherwise u have to say that the early church and the Fathers had all different faiths.
there was no centralism…
It reminds me on the 3 Language Heresy wich was condemned by St. Kyrill and St. Methodios when they were enlightning the Slaves !

In CHRIST

 

[bobzills]

Catholics believe the final authority rests with the Pope, the divine office institued by Christ. This is a problem in Orthodoxy. There is no final authority. Are you suggesting the Eastern churches in union with Rome are not subject to the Pope?

I am suggesting that the discussion on ONE Church is a non-issue since with good will, it can be resolved to the satisfaction of both sides.

 

[jam070406]

I wonder why Constantinople is fighting with the Russian Orthodox church who is fighting with the Romanian Orthodox church all over jurisdiction. This is one church eh?

 

[jam070406]

I am suggesting that the discussion on ONE Church is a non-issue since with good will, it can be resolved to the satisfaction of both sides.

Catholics and Orthodox have two completely different ideas of what ONE is. It is one of (if not the) major differences that seperates the two.

 

[bobzills]

I wonder why Constantinople is fighting with the Russian Orthodox church who is fighting with the Romanian Orthodox church all over jurisdiction. This is one church eh?

I wonder why the German bishops are fighting with the Pope over the Motu Proprio? I wonder why the Catholics in the USA are fighting with the Catholics in Europe over the question of whether the Blood of Christ was shed for many (Europe) or the Blood of Christ was shed for all (USA)? I wonder why the creed in the Latin Church has the filioque but the creed in the Byzantine Catholic Church does not have it? I wonder why altar girls are allowed in the Latin Church but they are not allowed in the Byzantine Catholic Church, I wonder why the Latin Church allows Communion services to be said by a woman, but the Byzantine Catholic Church does not allow it? I wonder why most Byzantine Catholic Churches do not allow musical instrumentation during Mass, but the LAtin Churches allow it? I wonder why in the LAtin Church the confirmation takes place after 12 years old, but in the Byzantine Catholic Church it is allowed for infants. etc., etc.
I have not retractred my opinion that with a slight amount of good will on both sides, the issue of ONE Church can easily be resolved and seen as a non-issue.

 

[bogoljub]

What about tollhouses? The monks of Athos are said to be the keepers of the true faith. They believe the Tollhouse theory don’t they? But others in Orthodoxy see Tollhouses as a heretical innovation. There were heated debates about this on the EC forum.

God bless!

You should be fair ! The discussion of the Tollhouses is an inner orthodox one and not for discussion between orthodox and non orthodox !

The Teaching of the Tollhouses is an traditional orthodox Teaching - it is a fact. But of course there are some people ( most of them are converts) wich deny some teaching. The first was cast out of my Church and NO really orthodox believe that this teaching is orthodox. Many who are against it are not good informed or have a wrong understanding or are converts and think that this teaching could be a kind of orthodox purgatory. You only have to read some orthodox Dogmatic Theology and u will see that it is teached everywhere ( from Russia, to Serbia to the usa…) It would be the same to say the catholics have different faiths becasue Martin Luther was a former catholic monk. Or when I would say some catholics do not believe that Christ is God because Arius also was a fromer catholic.

The same is with other Topics: The early church never allowed instruments for the Services the church music was only a vocal music, monophon based on the 8 Tones you can proove this.
Like the gregorian, ambrosian,…byzantine, old slavonic chant.
So the orthodox church never allowed organs or anything else but in some modernised churches in the Diaspora they also have some organs ( only a few). You will not find even one in whole Russia or Serbia or greece, on athos or Sinai…I do not remind u of Hard Rock Masses or I saw even Rave Masses - called Party for Jesus.

But of course the orthodox church also suffers from modernism we never denied it. It would also be foolish to say all orthodox are good christians - this would be nonsense, when even an Apostel was a betrayer.
We never denied that we are fallable - you said that u have an infallable instance. We so often wrote when we leave the Holy Tradition and are not obedient to the Holy Canons and the Fathers than we can easy fall away.
It must not every word spoken by an orthodox priest be really orthodox. He also can err or can fall.
I also know a catholic priest who openly preach in church that gays should be allowed to marry in church.
Or do u not see that even Popes and Patriarchs, Bishops, Priests can fall and became heretic. Arisus was a priest, Nestorius a Partiarch, we know Popes who fell…

In CHRIST

You should not try to see the orthodox church in catholic understanding,terms-because u will go wrong. Only because we do not accept an infallable Super Bishop ( more like a Monarch) means that the orthodox church has no unity. U try to understand ther orthodox unity with catholic “tools” that’s wrong. Come and experience orthodoxy and u will see what kind of unity we have throughout the whole world without a Pope.

 

[jam070406]

I wonder why the German bishops are fighting with the Pope over the Motu Proprio? I wonder why the Catholics in the USA are fighting with the Catholics in Europe over the question of whether the Blood of Christ was shed for many (Europe) or the Blood of Christ was shed for all (USA)? I wonder why the creed in the Latin Church has the filioque but the creed in the Byzantine Catholic Church does not have it? I wonder why altar girls are allowed in the Latin Church but they are not allowed in the Byzantine Catholic Church, I wonder why the Latin Church allows Communion services to be said by a woman, but the Byzantine Catholic Church does not allow it? I wonder why most Byzantine Catholic Churches do not allow musical instrumentation during Mass, but the LAtin Churches allow it? I wonder why in the LAtin Church the confirmation takes place after 12 years old, but in the Byzantine Catholic Church it is allowed for infants. etc., etc.
I have not retractred my opinion that with a slight amount of good will on both sides, the issue of ONE Church can easily be resolved and seen as a non-issue.

Because the church is full of sinners?

 

[jam070406]

God bless!

You should be fair ! The discussion of the Tollhouses is an inner orthodox one and not for discussion between orthodox and non orthodox !

The Teaching of the Tollhouses is an traditional orthodox Teaching - it is a fact. But of course there are some people ( most of them are converts) wich deny some teaching. The first was cast out of my Church and NO really orthodox believe that this teaching is orthodox. Many who are against it are not good informed or have a wrong understanding or are converts and think that this teaching could be a kind of orthodox purgatory. You only have to read some orthodox Dogmatic Theology and u will see that it is teached everywhere ( from Russia, to Serbia to the usa…) It would be the same to say the catholics have different faiths becasue Martin Luther was a former catholic monk. Or when I would say some catholics do not believe that Christ is God because Arius also was a fromer catholic.

The same is with other Topics: The early church never allowed instruments for the Services the church music was only a vocal music, monophon based on the 8 Tones you can proove this.
Like the gregorian, ambrosian,…byzantine, old slavonic chant.
So the orthodox church never allowed organs or anything else but in some modernised churches in the Diaspora they also have some organs ( only a few). You will not find even one in whole Russia or Serbia or greece, on athos or Sinai…I do not remind u of Hard Rock Masses or I saw even Rave Masses - called Party for Jesus.

But of course the orthodox church also suffers from modernism we never denied it. It would also be foolish to say all orthodox are good christians - this would be nonsense, when even an Apostel was a betrayer.
We never denied that we are fallable - you said that u have an infallable instance. We so often wrote when we leave the Holy Tradition and are not obedient to the Holy Canons and the Fathers than we can easy fall away.
It must not every word spoken by an orthodox priest be really orthodox. He also can err or can fall.
I also know a catholic priest who openly preach in church that gays should be allowed to marry in church.
Or do u not see that even Popes and Patriarchs, Bishops, Priests can fall and became heretic. Arisus was a priest, Nestorius a Partiarch, we know Popes who fell…

In CHRIST

You should not try to see the orthodox church in catholic understanding,terms-because u will go wrong. Only because we do not accept an infallable Super Bishop ( more like a Monarch) means that the orthodox church has no unity. U try to understand ther orthodox unity with catholic “tools” that’s wrong. Come and experience orthodoxy and u will see what kind of unity we have throughout the whole world without a Pope.

What??? You’re gonna throw this hypocrisy at me. Then you should not say anything about the Catholic church!!!

 

[bogoljub]

I agree that there have been a number of changes in the RCC since Vatican II and perhaps even before that. Of course, the number of changes in the E Orthodox Church has been very small, but is it zero or is it small but non-zero? I heard that there been some small number of changes in the E Orthodox Church:
For examples:

1. Should women wear headcovering in Church? According to 1 Cor 11:4-16, women are to wear headcovering in Church. And Early Christian art shows all women wearing headcovering in Church. Clement of Alexandria and Hermas recommended that women wear headcovering.
   But in the USA today, in the E. Othodox Churches, the teaching has changed and women are allowed to worship in Church without headcovering.
2. The use of musical instrumentation during Liturgical services. This was generally forbidden in the Orthodox Churches and it was recommended to use only the human voice unaccompanied by any musical instrumentation. However, the teaching has been changed and there are Greek Orthodox Churches in the USA which allow organ music.
3. The use of contraceptives. It had been previously taught that the use of contraceptives was wrong, however, now they are allowed under certain restricted circumstances. An E. Orthodox priest told me that in many cases, he would allow them to be used by a married couple if they already had 3 children.

God bless!

I think the change began in the Middle Ages and not on Vat II.

I will try to answer:

1. Woman have to cover their Heads during prayer ( also at home when praying), in russia a woman will not be allowed to enter without. I witnessed by my own once that a woman was not allowed even to enter the church ( they gave her a scarf and then she was allowed by the parish priest)
   In the usa many orthodox woman wear a head covering even today
   but it is true that in some modernised parishes they are not “so correct” like in other things but we do not agree with such innovation - most of them are converts I was in Serbia and went to the Church of the Patriarch and witness in the midst of Blegrade an apostolic Lent Service - the Patriach and all the people were lying on the church ground woman on the left side ( all were covered and weared long dresses) and man on the right, after some time they stood up and made prostrations and prostrations again,…it was great to see in the middle of Blegrade.
2. the organs I have answered but I say it again.
   In no traditional orthdox country u will find an organ - not in Russia not in Serbia not in greece only in the Diaspora by some modernised parishes ( wich are for me not orthodox anymore) they have some organs.( only a few) but they are uncanonical and are forbidden !
   3.Contraception, Hm what should I say - Marriage is not for the pleasure of the flesh but also not only to " produce" children !
   So perhaps this priest is too soft and should be more traditional.

Some other things often misunderstood:

+Priests are not allowed to marry - but we accept married man to become priests, in Russia there are many Hieromonks as parish priests ( Priestmonks)

+orthodox allow divorce - in the orthodox church we believe that we should only once marry but in some cases after a long time of repetence the orthodox chuch allows to bless a couple ( not a marriage with crowning) because we follow the Fathers wich said that a second or third marriage is a shame for the church but it is better to be married a 3rd time as to live in adultery. the ideal is high -but we are often too weak ( the church is strict but also a loving mother)

But I think it is funny to discuss the Headcovering of orthodox women when even the catholic nuns have put aside the covering.
I know many rcc nuns looking like secular persons even in jeans and T-shirt.

In CHRIST

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The first one got closed, so I’ll re-start it.

“Why would a Roman Catholic become Orthodox?” - one possibility: that may be the direction in which that person’s discernment of God’s Will for that person leads.​

 

[bobzills]

God bless!

I think the change began in the Middle Ages and not on Vat II.

I will try to answer:

1. Woman have to cover their Heads during prayer ( also at home when praying), in russia a woman will not be allowed to enter without. I witnessed by my own once that a woman was not allowed even to enter the church ( they gave her a scarf and then she was allowed by the parish priest)
   In the usa many orthodox woman wear a head covering even today
   but it is true that in some modernised parishes they are not “so correct” like in other things but we do not agree with such innovation - most of them are converts I was in Serbia and went to the Church of the Patriarch and witness in the midst of Blegrade an apostolic Lent Service - the Patriach and all the people were lying on the church ground woman on the left side ( all were covered and weared long dresses) and man on the right, after some time they stood up and made prostrations and prostrations again,…it was great to see in the middle of Blegrade.
2. the organs I have answered but I say it again.
   In no traditional orthdox country u will find an organ - not in Russia not in Serbia not in greece only in the Diaspora by some modernised parishes ( wich are for me not orthodox anymore) they have some organs.( only a few) but they are uncanonical and are forbidden !
   3.Contraception, Hm what should I say - Marriage is not for the pleasure of the flesh but also not only to " produce" children !
   So perhaps this priest is too soft and should be more traditional.

Some other things often misunderstood:

+Priests are not allowed to marry - but we accept married man to become priests, in Russia there are many Hieromonks as parish priests ( Priestmonks)

+orthodox allow divorce - in the orthodox church we believe that we should only once marry but in some cases after a long time of repetence the orthodox chuch allows to bless a couple ( not a marriage with crowning) because we follow the Fathers wich said that a second or third marriage is a shame for the church but it is better to be married a 3rd time as to live in adultery. the ideal is high -but we are often too weak ( the church is strict but also a loving mother)

But I think it is funny to discuss the Headcovering of orthodox women when even the catholic nuns have put aside the covering.
I know many rcc nuns looking like secular persons even in jeans and T-shirt.

In CHRIST

OK, thanks bogoljub. I think you are right here. Of course the Orthodox Church is a great Church. I just remarked that it is a small overstatement to say that never has anything ever changed in the Orthodox Church. Of course, the changes are pretty small but they are there.
All of the ancient icons and paintings show that women had their heads covered during prayer, and I just mentioned that this is not universally observed today. In the Catholic Church women don’t cover their heads as a rule, and this is a change since before when they did. There is a Catholic group called SSPX which says only the traditional Latin Mass and they require that women cover their heads during Mass. But the Catholic Church has supposedly excommunicated them and they are supposedly in a state of quasi-schism from the Catholic Church.
I went to a Greek Orthodox Church service in the USA and observed that most women do not have their heads covered. I did see in Russia, that a great majority, if not all, women had their heads covered in the Orthodox Churches there.
It is a small change, but I was just observing that the number of changes was not zero as had been indicated.
Thanks again for your explanations.

 

[psalmody]

We have different rites of one church with one hierarchy and head bishop. You have different self governing churches.

Dear Jam,

The ancient See of Rome is also one of the ancienct and self governing churches along with all the others i mentioned.

So yes With the See of Rome ,it has its own head bishop which is called the Pope who like the others has total authority over his own jurisdiction.

But what has happened is that the See of Rome is now not in Communion with all those other Sees since 1054.

The fact that the See of Rome is not in Communion with all the other ancient and self governing bodies which make up one big united church is no reason to dis unite all the other churches all over the world which have grown and become Mature and large enough to basically run their own show.

So the See of Rome is just another Humble self governing body/church which for the first millennium was in union and communion with the other Mature ,independent and self governing churches which all formed one expression of the true faith.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I believe in ONE, holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.

And that what was described above.

All those Churches confess the ONE Church, commune in the ONE Church.

We just do it without an overlord, unlike the Gentiles.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You stated: “Are you aware that they are all self governing and independant churches ?”

The creed says nothing about independant, self governing churches sharing faith. Your statement supposes that there are indeed many Orthodox churches. The creed states otherwise. It states there is ONE church.

Yes.

And it doesn’t mention Rome at all.

The above Churches are more united than the sui juris Churches (that plural again) under Rome.

 

[Stathios]

Dear Jam,

The ancient See of Rome is also one of the ancienct and self governing churches along with all the others i mentioned.

So yes With the See of Rome ,it has its own head bishop which is called the Pope who like the others has total authority over his own jurisdiction.

But what has happened is that the See of Rome is now not in Communion with all those other Sees since 1054.

The fact that the See of Rome is not in Communion with all the other ancient and self governing bodies which make up one big united church is no reason to dis unite all the other churches all over the world which have grown and become Mature and large enough to basically run their own show.

So the See of Rome is just another Humble self governing body/church which for the first millennium was in union and communion with the other Mature ,independent and self governing churches which all formed one expression of the true faith.

You Got it! Since the Pope got rid of the other 4 Patriarchs there was NO ONE to challenge him. He then started to act like a King. And as the years progressed he became More Powerful.
The Pope of the first millenuim did not have the same power os the pope of today nor the middle ages. Even a Catholic Theologian Admitted this to me. So you heard it from the horses mouth.