Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses? Part 2

[zaffiroborant]

Wouldn’t it be interesting to apply his same standard to latter-day prophets?

:newidea:

Well aside from the fact I don’t see any latter-day prophets, I would apply the same standard and I’m quite sure the men believed by LDS members to be such are not lying adulterous murderers. But they can never teach people that committing evil is good as those in the LDS church have. No one has shown scripture that has God speaking directly and approvingly of polygamy and Christ certainly did not approve it.

 

[kimg901]

No one has shown scripture that has God speaking directly and approvingly of polygamy and Christ certainly did not approve it.

Thats because there never was or will be. People just like to twist words for their own benefit. Lds do it all the time to try and convert and destroy peoples souls

 

[kimg901]

But to stick to the thread. I did find myself caught up in the mormonism for a time. I was amazed when I moved to Utah (Late 1992). I remember the snow was terrible and the plows didnt come down our street so the bishop rallied the troops and asked us to help clear the street. I said yes and thought to myself “Wow, what a great bunch of people” Always pleasant and kind. But I was told by some friends I met (after a year of living here in Utah and being mormon) that I wouldnt amount to much because I have dark skin and was the seed of Cain. So I researched it and sure enough, I wasnt worthy of the highest heaven and in my pre-life was less valiant than the whites. I left. So Math, why would someone want to be mormon if God is a racist?

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by mathonihah
When prophets and patriarchs did it, that means that God sanctioned it.

So God sanctioned it? Let us use your argument:

*So when Cain killed Abel…God sanctioned MURDER? Really? Honestly? *

Oh dear God! Where on earth do get such bizarre theological conclusions? Oh wait, I forgot, the Mormon Church who restored the original church. :whacky:

 

[twopekinguys]

I just found another reason to become a mormon (not)

Is anyone aware of the castrations they were performing on their own people in the
1850s?

"In Utah it has been the custom with the Priesthood to make eunuchs of such men as were obnoxious to the leaders. This was done for a double purpose: first, it gave a perfect revenge, and next, it left the poor victim a living example to others of the dangers of disobeying counsel and not living as ordered by the Priesthood. "

Read it here

They should have done it to smith and young as far as I am concerned.

Fair skirts around it all by saying things are unlikely and such…lol

 

[kimg901]

I just found another reason to become a mormon (not)

Is anyone aware of the castrations they were performing on their own people in the
1850s?

"In Utah it has been the custom with the Priesthood to make eunuchs of such men as were obnoxious to the leaders. This was done for a double purpose: first, it gave a perfect revenge, and next, it left the poor victim a living example to others of the dangers of disobeying counsel and not living as ordered by the Priesthood. "

Read it here

They should have done it to smith and young as far as I am concerned.

Fair skirts around it all by saying things are unlikely and such…lol

Wow Sound like a cult much? I heard of “off with their heads” but ouch

 

[mathonihah]

Abraham repented for not trusting God and begged for God to be merciful to the son born from his mistrust, to Hagar.

No sign of that. If that were so, why then did he go and have many more wives and concubines? I gave you the reference (Gen. 25:5–6).

God is merciful. You shouldn’t confuse mercy with indulgence.

Except that when many prophets do it over many centuries of biblical precedent, then it becomes the law of marriage, not “indulgence”.

Please, you’re applying a definition. Throughout the Bible expressing that someone is at the bosom or taken into the bosom, is a an expression of care, as a mother for her infant, not marriage. There are numerous examples:

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. (KJV ASV DBY WBS YLT)

Luke 16:22 It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. (WEB KJV WEY ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV)

Luke 16:23 In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. (WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV)

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. (WEB KJV WEY ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV)

Numbers 11:12 Have I conceived all this people? Have I brought them forth, that you should tell me,‘Carry them in your bosom, as a nurse carries a nursing infant, to the land which you swore to their fathers?’ (WEB KJV JPS ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV)

Except that the context implies that God gave David his master’s wives as a favor. There is no way that meaning can be read in the context of 2 Sam. 12:7–8.

This passage has nothing to do with marriage.

Of course it does. They murmured agains him because they disapproved of his second marriage. The Lord told them to shut up because it was okay!

Do you think God approves of giving women over as chattel to a conquered, who then must marry the conqueror and act as a wife? Do you think God is that unconcerned about a woman’s feelings?

God also commanded them to exterminate whole cities, tribes, and nations. That was obviously the right thing for them to do at the time, otherwise God wouldn’t have told them to do it.

 

[TexanKnight]

No sign of that. If that were so, why then did he go and have many more wives and concubines? I gave you the reference (Gen. 25:5–6).

Except that when many prophets do it over many centuries of biblical precedent, then it becomes the law of marriage, not “indulgence”.

Except that the context implies that God gave David his master’s wives as a favor. There is no way that meaning can be read in the context of 2 Sam. 12:7–8.

Of course it does. They murmured agains him because they disapproved of his second marriage. The Lord told them to shut up because it was okay!

God also commanded them to exterminate whole cities, tribes, and nations. That was obviously the right thing for them to do at the time, otherwise God wouldn’t have told them to do it.

I notice you were afraid to address this:

Depends. I have never said prophets should be perfect in what they do. BUT, they should NEVER teach false or confusing doctrine and they should not cheat people and they should not break the law.

They should not cover up sexual misconduct with new laws approving polygamy, they should not discriminate against black until it becomes financially dangerous, they should not fire guns into crowds, tear down printing presses they do not like, and try in all they do to bring glory on themselves like an egomaniac (appoint himself as mayor, appoint himself as general, run for president, etc),

Finally, he should not use his position as a way to have financial or material gain (telling people God told him that his people should build him a house, etc.)

---

 

[RebeccaJ]

No sign of that. If that were so, why then did he go and have many more wives and concubines? I gave you the reference (Gen. 25:5–6).

Except that when many prophets do it over many centuries of biblical precedent, then it becomes the law of marriage, not “indulgence”.

Except that the context implies that God gave David his master’s wives as a favor. There is no way that meaning can be read in the context of 2 Sam. 12:7–8.

Of course it does. They murmured agains him because they disapproved of his second marriage. The Lord told them to shut up because it was okay!

God also commanded them to exterminate whole cities, tribes, and nations. That was obviously the right thing for them to do at the time, otherwise God wouldn’t have told them to do it.

Well, as long as you believe God desires the worst for people, you should remain LDS, and I’ll remain forever grateful to God that I left people who believe as you.

 

[mtolympus]

I notice you were afraid to address this:

Not really. Some brilliant points just need to be recognized.

Depends. I have never said prophets should be perfect in what they do. BUT, they should NEVER teach false or confusing doctrine and they should not cheat people and they should not break the law.

They should not cover up sexual misconduct with new laws approving polygamy, they should not discriminate against black until it becomes financially dangerous, they should not fire guns into crowds, tear down printing presses they do not like, and try in all they do to bring glory on themselves like an egomaniac (appoint himself as mayor, appoint himself as general, run for president, etc),

Finally, he should not use his position as a way to have financial or material gain (telling people God told him that his people should build him a house, etc.)

Sorry Tex, you are just going to try harder if you want Joseph Smith to be as bad and Abraham, Moses, David and Paul according to CAF posters.

 

[mathonihah]

Well, as long as you believe God desires the worst for people, you should remain LDS, and I’ll remain forever grateful to God that I left people who believe as you.

Of course he wants the best for people. He is “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,” but also, “and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6–7)

 

[zaffiroborant]

I notice you were afraid to address this:

Depends. I have never said prophets should be perfect in what they do. BUT, they should NEVER teach false or confusing doctrine and they should not cheat people and they should not break the law.

They should not cover up sexual misconduct with new laws approving polygamy, they should not discriminate against black until it becomes financially dangerous, they should not fire guns into crowds, tear down printing presses they do not like, and try in all they do to bring glory on themselves like an egomaniac (appoint himself as mayor, appoint himself as general, run for president, etc),

Finally, he should not use his position as a way to have financial or material gain (telling people God told him that his people should build him a house, etc.)

---

They shouldn’t marry other men’s wives like Zina who while married to Henry was had by JS and after he died was passed on to BY. They should not sell salvation to families in exchange for their teenage daughters like in the case of Helen. They shouldn’t marry teenage sisters as was the case with Emily and Eliza.

And like you mention they shouldn’t tell people God said they had to build him a boarding house. It is utterly unbelievable that section 124 is considered scripture by the LDS church it is right up there in the most appallingly self serving things JS ever wrote.

55 And again, verily I say unto you, I command you again to build a ahouse to my name, even in this place, that you may bprove yourselves unto me that ye are cfaithful in all things whatsoever I command you, that I may bless you, and crown you with honor, immortality, and eternal life.

56 And now I say unto you, as pertaining to my boarding ahouse which I have commanded you to build for the boarding of strangers, let it be built unto my name, and let my name be named upon it, and let my servant Joseph and his house have place therein, from generation to generation.

57 For this aanointing have I put upon his head, that his blessing shall also be put upon the head of his posterity after him.

58 And as I said unto aAbraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy bseed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed.

59 Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord.

60 And let the name of that house be called aNauvoo House; and let it be a delightful habitation for man, and a resting-place for the weary traveler, that he may contemplate the glory of Zion, and the glory of this, the cornerstone thereof;

61 That he may receive also the counsel from those whom I have set to be as aplants of renown, and as bwatchmen upon her walls.

62 Behold, verily I say unto you, let my servant George Miller, and my servant Lyman Wight, and my servant John Snider, and my servant Peter Haws, organize themselves, and appoint one of them to be a president over their quorum for the purpose of building that house.

63 And they shall form a constitution, whereby they may receive stock for the building of that house.

64 And they shall not receive less than fifty dollars for a share of stock in that house, and they shall be permitted to receive fifteen thousand dollars from any one man for stock in that house.

65 But they shall not be permitted to receive over fifteen thousand dollars stock from any one man.

66 And they shall not be permitted to receive under fifty dollars for a share of stock from any one man in that house.

67 And they shall not be permitted to receive any man, as a stockholder in this house, except the same shall pay his stock into their hands at the time he receives stock;

68 And in proportion to the amount of stock he pays into their hands he shall receive stock in that house; but if he pays nothing into their hands he shall not receive any stock in that house.

69 And if any pay stock into their hands it shall be for stock in that house, for himself, and for his generation after him, from generation to generation, so long as he and his heirs shall hold that stock, and do not sell or convey the stock away out of their hands by their own free will and act, if you will do my will, saith the Lord your God.

70 And again, verily I say unto you, if my servant George Miller, and my servant Lyman Wight, and my servant John Snider, and my servant Peter Haws, receive any stock into their hands, in moneys, or in properties wherein they receive the real value of moneys, they shall not appropriate any portion of that stock to any other purpose, only in that house.

71 And if they do appropriate any portion of that stock anywhere else, only in that house, without the consent of the stockholder, and do not repay four-fold for the stock which they appropriate anywhere else, only in that house, they shall be accursed, and shall be moved out of their place, saith the Lord God; for I, the Lord, am God, and cannot be amocked in any of these things.

Really this is revelation from God??? The only thing that compares is where “scripture” says JS wife Emma will be destroyed if she doesn’t accept his “marrying” other women.

 

[mathonihah]

And like you mention they shouldn’t tell people God said they had to build him a boarding house. It is utterly unbelievable that section 124 is considered scripture by the LDS church it is right up there in the most appallingly self serving things JS ever wrote.

55 And again, verily I say unto you, I command you again to build a ahouse to my name, even in this place, that you may bprove yourselves unto me that ye are cfaithful in all things whatsoever I command you, that I may bless you, and crown you with honor, immortality, and eternal life.

That was a “boarding house,” meaning that it was a guesthouse, like a hotel. Nauvoo was a rapidly expanding city, and many visitors were coming to visit Joseph Smith and the saints, and the city didn’t have a guesthouse or hotel they could stay in. It wasn’t a place for Joseph Smith. It was to be built as a “joint venture,” with people paying various amounts of money as “stock” for the purpose of building the property, and each would be the “part owner” of the property depending on the amount of money they put in as stock for the building of it. Joseph Smith was no different from the rest. He too would be the part owner depending on how much money he decided to put in towards building it. If you took the trouble to read the revelation properly before criticising, you would know that.

 

[TexanKnight]

That was a “boarding house,” meaning that it was a guesthouse, like a hotel. Nauvoo was a rapidly expanding city, and many visitors were coming to visit Joseph Smith and the saints, and the city didn’t have a guesthouse or hotel they could stay in. It wasn’t a place for Joseph Smith. It was to be built as a “joint venture,” with people paying various amounts of money as “stock” for the purpose of building the property, and each would be the “part owner” of the property depending on the amount of money they put in as stock for the building of it. Joseph Smith was no different from the rest. He too would be the part owner depending on how much money he decided to put in towards building it. If you took the trouble to read the revelation properly before criticising, you would know that.

Lol. So the lds god wanted joe to have a boarding house and everyone had to pay for it. Rightttttttt! Lol

 

[mathonihah]

Lol. So the lds god wanted joe to have a boarding house and everyone had to pay for it. Rightttttttt! Lol

What took you so long? You must be slowing down. I am disappointed.

 

[TexanKnight]

What took you so long? You must be slowing down. I am disappointed.

You are Mormon…you will be disappointed a lot. And I slept…sorry.

Anyway…maybe you should not be so afraid to respond to my posts with real thought instead of glib dodges

 

[TexanKnight]

Not really. Some brilliant points just need to be recognized.

Sorry Tex, you are just going to try harder if you want Joseph Smith to be as bad and Abraham, Moses, David and Paul according to CAF posters.

as I said…too afraid to actually respond.

I do not blame you. If my alleged prophet was a convicted con man, cheated many in a banking scandal, was caught having sex with young girls, tried to get a married couple to swap, tore down printing ogresses he did not like, ran from every court date he had, illegally had a gun in jail, and tried to leave his friends when shots were being fired, I would resort to glib dodges as well…

 

[kimg901]

Lol. So the lds god wanted joe to have a boarding house and everyone had to pay for it. Rightttttttt! Lol

Not just him but generations of smiths.

 

[kimg901]

Not really. Some brilliant points just need to be recognized.

Sorry Tex, you are just going to try harder if you want Joseph Smith to be as bad and Abraham, Moses, David and Paul according to CAF posters.

Really? TK doesnt have to do anything to try and make smith look bad. Smith did it on his own. Anyone that can read with an open mind can see that smith was just a bad man out for himself. And I wouldnt even put smith name in with Abram, Moses, David and Paul. They were true prophets of the Lord, smith was not. Before you can think to yourself and say “yes he was”, ask yourself this, "If smith was a humble man and was doing Gods/Jesus work, why would he have said I have done more for the church than Christ or the Apostles have ever done? To me he sounds like a man motivated by his own means and was using God/Jesus to get what he wanted.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course he wants the best for people. He is “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,” but also, “and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6–7)

Funny, I thought one of your articles of faith says people are punished for their own sins.

God has cleared the guilty, including you.

As I said, you deserve your puny god.