Why would God create people he knew would go to hell?

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If God knows the person is going to Hell, is there any scenario in which the person will not go to Hell?

I’ve talked about this earlier in this thread. You are describing those cars at Disneyland that drive around on rails, and the kids can turn back and forth a little, like maybe a foot side to side. They are free to choose where the car goes in that sense, but ultimately, if they want to head for San Francisco, they’ll find that they have not been given sufficient liberty to make that happen, no matter what they do.
 
I’d say it’s more like watching a movie… one you’ve been spoiled about (or are rewatching).
The characters in the movie are free to do whatever they will, but they will always do what you know they will do.
 
Either my future has multiple possible outcomes, or God knows the single outcome.
Both. There are multiple possibilities, from which you can choose freely. God – without interfering in your choice – can see what you’ll choose.
If he CAN see my future, and that future is immalleable, then free choice is an illusion.
The future isn’t “immalleable” from your perspective. You get to hammer it into whatever shape you wish. (That’s the error in your premise, by the way: you’re asserting something about the future that we’re not asserting. 😉 )
 
If God knows the person is going to Hell, is there any scenario in which the person will not go to Hell?

I’ve talked about this earlier in this thread. You are describing those cars at Disneyland that drive around on rails, and the kids can turn back and forth a little, like maybe a foot side to side. They are free to choose where the car goes in that sense, but ultimately, if they want to head for San Francisco, they’ll find that they have not been given sufficient liberty to make that happen, no matter what they do.
God knows but that does not determine the choice of the individual. The grace is given which if the person is ultimately in heaven is called efficacious, but if not, it is called sufficient.
 
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Well, let’s answer a super-simple question:

If God already/always/eternally sees that you’ll go to Hell, but you don’t yet know you’re going to Hell, what are your chances of getting to Heaven, by any actions you might take?
 
Why would God create people he knew would go to hell? I think this thing is absurd
😀

FOR THE VERY SAME REASON HE CREATED PEOPLE HE KNEW WOULD ATTAIN HEAVEN

You see God is GLORIFIED when His Creatures love Him enough to pay the price of heacen

AND God is also GLORIFIED for having given those who freely choose eternal hell the OPPORTUNITY to have chosen the good orver the evil.

Either way God is Glorified and humanity attains their JUST reward. Amen

Patrick
 
Well, let’s answer a super-simple question:

If God already/always/eternally sees that you’ll go to Hell, but you don’t yet know you’re going to Hell, what are your chances of getting to Heaven, by any actions you might take?
It is not a matter of chance but of human free will.
 
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If God already/always/eternally sees that you’ll go to Hell, but you don’t yet know you’re going to Hell, what are your chances of getting to Heaven, by any actions you might take?
You have a 100% chance… until and if you make the choices, freely, that lead you otherwise.
 
Then God’s knowledge is false. This is not a logical conclusion.
 
Then God’s knowledge is false. This is not a logical conclusion.
No – God’s knowledge is true. It is based on the decision you eventually make. However, it does not determine the decision you make.

Your error here is the attempt to make God’s knowledge fit into the context a temporal framework. It doesn’t. His knowledge is outside the temporal framework. Therefore, it does not impinge on actions taken within that framework.
 
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steve-b:
“The fact is He knows in advance what people will choose to do…”
So if he knows what they will choose to do, why is He limited in His ability to inform them what he knows? God should have no limitations, yet he could not write down in detail what will happen even tomorrow and publish it for all to read. Anyone reading it could change things so his predictions wouldn’t happen.
Yeah… .but… God, as presented already knows if anyone is going to read that and how it will be interpreted and the outcome is known.
 
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steve-b:
“The fact is He knows in advance what people will choose to do…”
So if he knows what they will choose to do, why is He limited in His ability to inform them what he knows? God should have no limitations, yet he could not write down in detail what will happen even tomorrow and publish it for all to read. Anyone reading it could change things so his predictions wouldn’t happen.
Are you saying He should then eliminate consequences for us for what we do , good or bad, just because He knows in advance what we will do?

Isn’t it obvious, He is testing us just like He tested the angels? In all my experience, I never ran into a professor who gave the answers to the test before the test ?
 
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why do YOU believe that just because you do not understand why God does what He does you have a right to call God’s actions absurd?
 
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benjamin1973:
If God already/always/eternally sees that you’ll go to Hell, but you don’t yet know you’re going to Hell, what are your chances of getting to Heaven, by any actions you might take?
You have a 100% chance… until and if you make the choices, freely, that lead you otherwise.
That is difficult to understand. If God knows you are going to hell, how can you have a 100% chance of going to heaven? It is already known with 100% certainty beforehand that you are going to hell?
 
If its done your way then generations of families would not exist by not creating one person So all these people (descendants) would never exist because one person choose to reject God - Hmmmm that’s sound fair. I think you need to rethink it - because your way you condemn who knows how many people to no life at all.
 
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Gorgias:
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benjamin1973:
If God already/always/eternally sees that you’ll go to Hell, but you don’t yet know you’re going to Hell, what are your chances of getting to Heaven, by any actions you might take?
You have a 100% chance… until and if you make the choices, freely, that lead you otherwise.
That is difficult to understand. If God knows you are going to hell, how can you have a 100% chance of going to heaven? It is already known with 100% certainty beforehand that you are going to hell?
It’s not known “beforehand.” Before you make the choice, you have the freedom to choose whichever course of action you wish.

Let’s suppose that we record you making the choice and then, later, I watch the video. My knowledge happens outside of the context of your choice. Would you say that my knowledge of your choice impinged on your ability to have chosen?

(Of course not! That’d be silly!)

Same thing here: God’s knowledge of your choice happens outside of the context of the temporal framework. Therefore, God’s knowledge does not impinge on your ability to choose. 😉

(And yeah… it is difficult to wrap your head around the idea…)
 
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Okay I’ve got it.

Whatever I do is what I was going to have done. (need some crazy verb tenses for this) So if I decide to give up and live a life of sinful pleasure, I will discover that was in my cards. If I decide to live a holy life, maybe sit in a cave and meditate for 40 days, give up the pleasures of the flesh, etc., then I will discover that was in my cards.

So I can do whatever I want, and it will turn out that is what I was always going to have done. (more crazy verbs) So basically-- I should follow whatever path I want.

btw this is not an atheist/Christian argument. There are plenty of atheists who debate on either side of the free will issue. In any system which reconciles free will with determinism, this is the case: that the lack of knowledge about your future means that for all practical purposes, you are a free agent.

To put it in scientific terms: your life is in a state of superposition of outcomes. QM experiments show exactly this: that a photon in a double split experiment is ambiguous until it is observed, and that checking observations after the fact actually determine what state it was in-- in the past. So in some sense it’s completely possible for issues to be fully resolved an fully unresolved at the same time
 
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Whatever I do is what I was going to have done. (need some crazy verb tenses for this) So if I decide to give up and live a life of sinful pleasure, I will discover that was in my cards. If I decide to live a holy life, maybe sit in a cave and meditate for 40 days, give up the pleasures of the flesh, etc., then I will discover that was in my cards.
LOL! Yes, I’d agree – crazy tenses! 🤣

One quibble: it’s not that you’ll discover “what was in the cards” for you – that would still express a certain determinism. Rather, you’ll live your life out as you choose – period, full stop.

To say “I will discover” still means that it was “fated to be so”, which is not what’s being asserted here. Instead, like you say, you follow the path you choose.
 
God can see it, it’s there. But from your perspective, this doesn’t matter-- because if you turn out good, you were always going to. If you turn out bad, you were always going to.

There’s no getting around the fact that your life has one path, which is seen in its entirety by God. But since the outcome is unknown, you will only be capable of acting in a way meritorious of Heaven if you end up in Heaven. So you can act correctly, and be confident that your actions are evidence that you’re on the right path.
 
God can see it, it’s there.
Strictly speaking… no. (Sorry, I’m not trying to be contrary.)

On one hand, God doesn’t ‘see’ it. That would mean that there would have to be some sort of action that God takes; it would mean that He learns. He doesn’t – He simply knows all things.

On the other hand, it doesn’t necessary have to “be there”, strictly speaking, either! If you want to perceive the universe as something that is unfolding, then your decision of what to have for breakfast on Monday isn’t “there” for most of all time – it’s not “there” today, and strictly speaking, it will have come and gone by Tuesday (and therefore, not be “there” in any sense other than in your memory). From God’s perspective, then, it’s always both ‘there’ and ‘not there’! That is, God knows all of the temporal framework immediately. Everything that will have ever existed, ever… and He knows it all, simultaneously and without mediation.

With that said…
There’s no getting around the fact that your life has one path, which is seen in its entirety by God.
No, there are many paths from which you may choose. And you get to choose the one you follow. When you look back on it, you don’t see it as “the one and only path”, do you? Rather, you see it as a series of choices, many of which had multiple options from which you chose. Multiple paths were possible… but you eked out one of them. Your ability to see that one path, years later, doesn’t imply that this was the only one that was possible for you.

Same thing for God. He knows what you will choose, but doesn’t force you into it. His knowledge doesn’t dictate your choice (just as your knowledge today of what you had for breakfast Wednesday doesn’t dictate the choice you made). You were free to choose then. And you know now.
But since the outcome is unknown, you will only be capable of acting in a way meritorious of Heaven if you end up in Heaven.
No – your presence in Heaven doesn’t dictate the choices you freely made while on earth.
So you can act correctly, and be confident that your actions are evidence that you’re on the right path.
Interesting take on it! Confidence is a hallmark of faith and hope in action!
 
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