Why would God create people who do not want to live?

[Neoplatonist]

Missed the point Tony…past, present and future…all known…to your god there was never a time when we did not exist in his view. Therefore, he creates with absolute foreknowledge of the outcome. Now, why would a deity with these abilities create people who either do not wish life, or will be doomed by some transgression(s) along the line?
To create for destruction is the definition of illogical.

Nice point.

 

[tonyrey]

We

We are certainly not eternal but that doesn’t mean **we **are created in time and space. Our ability to think of the past, present and future shows that the mind transcends physical limitations. As well as living in this world we exist in the spiritual, immaterial realm of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love - of which the NeoPlatonists were well aware.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Missed the point Tony…past, present and future…all known…to your god there was never a time when we did not exist in his view. Therefore, he creates with absolute foreknowledge of the outcome. Now, why would a deity with these abilities create people who either do not wish life, or will be doomed by some transgression(s) along the line?
To create for destruction is the definition of illogical.

To create without giving people a choice in how they will live and die is illogical.

What you seem to want is a utopian world in which perfection abides everywhere, with no one created who can possibly choose imperfection or even sin.

You seem to be complaining that we do not have heaven on earth.

I’d reserve my complaints for the devil who wants there to be hell on earth and after earth.

 

[Aloysium]

We are certainly not eternal but that doesn’t mean **we **are created in time and space. Our ability to think of the past, present and future shows that the mind transcends physical limitations. As well as living in this world we exist in the spiritual, immaterial realm of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love - of which the NeoPlatonists were well aware.

:twocents:

I would say that we are eternal, although not existing in all times.
This Now that we inhabit, cannot not be.
It can be understood as containing our beginning and our end.
It does not move while it does undergo change.
This moment as an isolated fragment of time is our rational soul in the process of participating in its creation as an eternal being.
Who we are has been carved in stone by our actions and is undoable; this is where it all happens and the future offers the hope and possibilities of whom we are to become for all time.
The entire universe does not revolve around this individual moment any more that it revolves around us in the sky.
So right here, now, this is who we are in relation to God, in the process of getting closer to or further from Him through our acts and decisions.
We are finite eternal beings, surprising God with our behaviour, becoming whom we choose to be.
We exist in time and space. A decision made in a instant by angels, we spread over the four score years we are in this world.

Something like that.

 

[oldcelt]

To create without giving people a choice in how they will live and die is illogical.

What you seem to want is a utopian world in which perfection abides everywhere, with no one created who can possibly choose imperfection or even sin.

You seem to be complaining that we do not have heaven on earth.

I’d reserve my complaints for the devil who wants there to be hell on earth and after earth.

To create with foreknowledge destroys your argument…entirely. BTW, I accept this world for what it is…because we created it.

John

 

[tonyrey]

:twocents:

I would say that we are eternal, although not existing in all times.
This Now that we inhabit, cannot not be.
It can be understood as containing our beginning and our end.
It does not move while it does undergo change.
This moment as an isolated fragment of time is our rational soul in the process of participating in its creation as an eternal being.
Who we are has been carved in stone by our actions and is undoable; this is where it all happens and the future offers the hope and possibilities of whom we are to become for all time.
The entire universe does not revolve around this individual moment any more that it revolves around us in the sky.
So right here, now, this is who we are in relation to God, in the process of getting closer to or further from Him through our acts and decisions.
We are finite eternal beings, surprising God with our behaviour, becoming whom we choose to be.
We exist in time and space. A decision made in a instant by angels, we spread over the four score years we are in this world. Something like that.

I agree - apart from God being surprised!

 

[tonyrey]

To create with foreknowledge destroys your argument…entirely.

 

[Aloysium]

I agree - apart from God being surprised!

Address of Pope Francis at Yad Vashem, 26 May 2014

“Adam, where are you?” (cf. Gen 3:9). Where are you, o man? What have you come to? In this place, this memorial of the Shoah, we hear God’s question echo once more: “Adam, where are you?” This question is charged with all the sorrow of a Father who has lost his child. The Father knew the risk of freedom; he knew that his children could be lost… yet perhaps not even the Father could imagine so great a fall, so profound an abyss! Here, before the boundless tragedy of the Holocaust, That cry – “Where are you?” – echoes like a faint voice in an unfathomable abyss… Adam, who are you? I no longer recognize you. Who are you, o man? What have you become? Of what horror have you been capable? What made you fall to such depths? Certainly it is not the dust of the earth from which you were made. The dust of the earth is something good, the work of my hands. Certainly it is not the breath of life which I breathed into you. That breath comes from me, and it is something good (cf. Gen 2:7). No, this abyss is not merely the work of your own hands, your own heart… Who corrupted you? Who disfigured you? Who led you to presume that you are the master of good and evil? Who convinced you that you were god? Not only did you torture and kill your brothers and sisters, but you sacrificed them to yourself, because you made yourself a god. Today, in this place, we hear once more the voice of God: “Adam, where are you?” From the ground there rises up a soft cry: “Have mercy on us, O Lord!” To you, O Lord our God, belongs righteousness; but to us confusion of face and shame (cf. Bar 1:15). A great evil has befallen us, such as never happened under the heavens (cf. Bar 2:2). Now, Lord, hear our prayer, hear our plea, save us in your mercy. Save us from this horror. Almighty Lord, a soul in anguish cries out to you. Hear, Lord, and have mercy! . . .

yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/events/pope/francis/speech.asp

“Surprised” not meaning the knowing something later that was not previously known, but rather having to do with the mystery in our revealing ourselves.
An example might help:
It is known to God that Cain would slay Abel in spite of His having warned him. I believe it is surprising to witness the decision.

 

[hu324b]

We know there are medical reasons - some of the medication today put people in a suicidal state - oppression and abuse by other with no escape - there are many many reasons - it is not as simple as people just don’t want to live and it should not be stated that way - that statement is made in ignorance. Compassion should be the first thought when speaking of these people - pray that life does not over whelm you and consider you blessing of having a trouble free life before speaking of this.

 

[tonyrey]

Address of Pope Francis at Yad Vashem, 26 May 2014
yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/events/pope/francis/speech.asp

“Surprised” not meaning the knowing something later that was not previously known, but rather having to do with the mystery in our revealing ourselves.
An example might help:
It is known to God that Cain would slay Abel in spite of His having warned him. I believe it is surprising to witness the decision.

Human words are obviously inadequate to describe God accurately but He is certainly not indifferent to the horrific suffering in the world. Our best guide is Jesus who wept with the sisters and friends of Lazarus. His human expression of grief must have a divine parallel we cannot fully understand.

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt;12700134:

Not if power is shared… If it isn’t we’re not responsible for any of our thoughts or actions.

God is superfluous if we created the world!

God created the physical world from which we evolved…that is hardly superfluous. And…your first statement does nothing to remove the burden on any creator with foreknowledge.

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey;12700307:

Not if power is shared… If it isn’t we’re not responsible for any of our thoughts or actions.
God is superfluous if we created the world!

God created the physical world from which we evolved…that is hardly superfluous.If we created the world God didn’t create it - unless the term “create” is being used with two different meanings.

And…your first statement does nothing to remove the burden on any creator with foreknowledge.

God is ultimately responsible for everything but justified in creating us because life is immensely valuable. Its value far outweighs its disadvantages.
If you disagree you are begrudging everyone the gift of life…

If those who are unfortunate weren’t created their descendants would be deprived of the opportunity to exist through no fault of their own.

 

[tonyrey]

God is ultimately responsible for everything but justified in creating us because life is immensely valuable. Its value far outweighs its disadvantages.

If you disagree you are begrudging everyone the gift of life…

If those who are unfortunate weren’t created their descendants would be deprived of the opportunity to exist through no fault of their own.

We too are responsible for the existence of those who don’t want to live because God has given us the power to procreate. We are not compelled to bring children into the world. We can’t pick and choose. Either we are deprived of the joys of having and belonging to a family or we accept the drawbacks of life. Otherwise we are being unrealistic. Which is it to be?

 

[oldcelt]

oldcelt;12706489:

If we created the world God didn’t create it - unless the term “create” is being used with two different meanings.
God is ultimately responsible for everything but justified in creating us because life is immensely valuable. Its value far outweighs its disadvantages.
If you disagree you are begrudging everyone

the gift of life…

If those who are unfortunate weren’t created their descendants would be deprived of the opportunity to exist through no fault of their own.

You are attempting to parse words in the first paragraph. The world of which I spoke was the human world…not the physical world (Earth).
So, your God relies upon us for creation? He isn’t powerful enough to simply jump one step out of an act of mercy? Sounds more like randomness to me.

John

 

[tonyrey]

You are attempting to parse words in the first paragraph. The world of which I spoke was the human world…not the physical world (Earth).

Your exact words were “I accept** this world** for what it is…because we created it.” So at the very least it is ambiguous.

So, your God relies upon us for creation? He isn’t powerful enough to simply jump one step out of an act of mercy? Sounds more like randomness to me.

You are jumping from one extreme to the other! It is not a case of all or nothing. I’m quite sure God does intervene on countless occasions but to expect Him to intervene whenever some one is going to suffer is absurd. It would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly, predictable world. Too many exceptions to the laws of nature would undermine our power to choose what to believe and how to live. It would be obvious that a benevolent power is protecting us.

 

[simonmic]

For most of my life I have been very suicidal, even as a young child.

I realize that everyone here has a purpose on this earth. As sad as it is, I think that some people, who have unfortunately ended their lives, believed they did not have a purpose. However, perhaps their purpose was to let people know about the suffering they went through to show others in a similar position how they shouldn’t handle it. Almost like role models for what not to do?

What do you think their purpose was, or should have been, if they knew in their minds that it was meaningless?

 

[Aloysium]

What do you think their purpose was, or should have been, if they knew in their minds that it was meaningless?

I don’t think we can generalize.

Suicide is usually (always) a terminal symptom of mental illness.
Clearly, it is not a rational decision.

The person has accomplished all they ever will.
Maybe there is nothing more some people could add to their lives.

Sometimes, the desert in which the person dwells,
a journey to nowhere whatever direction they go,
becomes actualized that we who remain can make flower.

Death, the loss whatever the cause,
makes manifest the bonds love
that join us, now in pain,
weaving this tapestry of human existence.

Lord have mercy!

 

[simonmic]

Suicide is usually (always) a terminal symptom of mental illness.
Clearly, it is not a rational decision.

I don’t believe that to be true when i “attempted it”

I don’t think we can generalize either.

 

[Aloysium]

Suicide is usually (always) a terminal symptom of mental illness.
Clearly, it is not a rational decision.

I don’t believe that top be true when i “attempted it”

I sincerely recommend you speak to someone about your feelings.

 

[simonmic]

If you mean another shrink…no thanks…I’d rather speak to a doctor of the church IN HEAVEN, if one wishes to come down and visit.

Its possible, right?