Why would God create those that He knew would end up in Hell

[empther]

atheistgirl’s post #55,

Originally Posted by JDaniel

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It only becomes “sinful” precisely because of Judas’ concomitant intent. And Judas’ intent was all his own.

And God would know his intent, right?

Yes, God would have known his intent, but Jesus in his human nature would not.

Is it possible that Judas could have said, ‘‘I am not going to betray Jesus. Get behind me Satan!’’

Yes. Judas could have said that.

Is it possible that NO ONE would have betrayed Jesus,

YES !!!

and thus He would not have been crucified, and live to a ripe old age and die of natural causes?

Not necessarily.
Jesus was changing things. The Romans wouldn’t like that. They probably would have killed Jesus soon anyways.

No.

You answered your own question, but not for the right reason.

Jesus HAD to be sacrificed. God demanded it!

But not necessarily in the way it happened.

Jesus HAD to be betrayed and crucified - well, that’s my understanding anyhows.

No. Jesus might have been killed by the Romans by being cut down with a sword or something like that.

So, it was predestined, and someone was predestined to do it.

It was not, and I just explained why.

How can it be any other way?

I just explained;.

And if so, how can it be right to come down on Judas when he drew the short straw and was only playing out the role given to him from the moment he was conceived?

He did not draw the short straw. It was his own choice. Didn’t have to do it.

I take on board the comments regarding the Church not saying Judas is in hell.

The Church would not comment on Judas’s or anybody else’s final destiny,
except for those she canonizes as Saints for heroic virtue.

But Judas is a much vilified character for betraying Jesus, his name has passed down as shorthand for a taitor, someone vile, without redeeming qualities, when, it seems to me, he could have done no other - as this was God’s plan for him, from the beginning!

It was not God’s plan.

Sarah x

Norm :harp:

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah:

At the precise moment of it!

So are you saying, lets say, two years earlier, God did NOT know that Judas would betray Him?

Yes, that true - except God didn’t “demand” it. God ordained it.

It amounts to the same thing, does it not?

Just think it through, Sarah.

I am trying to but sheesh, my brain isn’t cut out for this kinda stuff

Sarah x

 

[paul_c]

So are you saying, lets say, two years earlier, God did NOT know that Judas would betray Him?

God knows everything. He knew Judas would betray Jesus but God didn’t force him to do it. Judas did it of his own free will

 

[atheistgirl]

God knows everything. He knew Judas would betray Jesus but God didn’t force him to do it. Judas did it of his own free will

But that’s what I’m questioning - when Jesus passed Judas the bread, having just said the person He passes the bread to will betray Him, Judas could NOT then NOT betray Jesus, or he would have proven Jesus in error, and that could never happen!

So Judas did NOT have a choice!

Until that point Judas had NOT betrayed Jesus. These events were yet to happen. But it seems to me he had no choice to after the bread, otherwise Jesus’ words would not be true!

Sarah x

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

*”The words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel. He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation” *(Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, 185-6).
General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II:

*"Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no,” which marks the (human) creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6)"*
Many Catholics have interpreted the above passages to mean that it is permissible for a Catholic to believe that Hell exists, but at that same time hope in the POSSIBILITY that no human souls occupy it, and no human souls will ever be there. See, e.g., firstthings.com/article/2008/08/the-population-of-hell-23

 

[JDaniel]

I think the real question is, why would God create Lucifer?

Remember, Lucifer was the best angel in heaven who ended up becoming a rebel, tried to fight with God, and is now known as the devil for his evilness.

God is all knowing, so that means before Lucifer was created, God must of known he was going to try and defeat him.

Why would he create the angel Lucifer if he was going to cause evil?

Nicole:

“All-knowing” does not equal “soothsayer.” That is earthly dim-wittedness. God knows everything that is. He does not know what isn’t. If He has not Willed a thing (to be in some fashion), that means it is not a part of His database. God sets all things in motion - except a soul’s intentions. That’s Freedom as perfect as it can be. There is no “future” where God is concerned. There is no “future,” in reference to God. None. No " future." Zilch. Nada! All there is is His Now, which we can’t adequately describe.

The angel that we know as Lucifer, made his/her own decision to stay on the level he/she is/was on, and not enter into the uppermost level, whereupon he/she would have seen God’s face. Lucifer was content with his/her own place in the hierarchy of angels - on this lowest level of spirituality.

Why is the fact that an infinite being cannot have a prior and a posterior, either physically or in “time,” so hard to understand?

God bless,
jd

 

[paul_c]

But that’s what I’m questioning - when Jesus passed Judas the bread, having just said the person He passes the bread to will betray Him, Judas could NOT then NOT betray Jesus, or he would have proven Jesus in error, and that could never happen!

So Judas did NOT have a choice!

Until that point Judas had NOT betrayed Jesus. These events were yet to happen. But it seems to me he had no choice to after the bread, otherwise Jesus’ words would not be true!

Sarah x

A couple of things. In John’s gospel (chapter 13), Jesus tells the apostles that one of them will betray him. Peter motions to John to ask him who, and he identifies that it will be Judas by passing him the morsel. At this point John says that Satan entered Judas and that Judas left to tell the Sanhedrin.

But. in Matthew 26 14-15, it says that Judas actually had negotiated with the chief priests prior to the last supper to turn Jesus over for 30 peices of silver.

So, Judas had already decided on his own to betray Jesus, prior to be passed the morsel.
Keeping this in mind, you can see that Jesus knew it had happened, but he didn’t force it to happen.

Keep in mind also, that Judas could still have been saved AFTER betraying Jesus if he had confessed and repented as Peter did. The betrayal alone was not sufficient to have condemned Judas. As long as he lived, according to Catholic teaching, he could still have repented and been saved.

 

[atheistgirl]

Why is the fact that an infinite being cannot have a prior and a posterior, either physically or in “time,” so hard to understand?

I think part of the reason I’m having such a hard time with this, is because, ultimately, it just amounts to the same thing.

I am imagining a long blue line - this represents God.

Underneath this blue line, lots of things are going on - for example, a car driving, someone getting exam results, someone sitting an exam, someone killing someone, someone giving birth, all of human life is there.

All of this activity is happening underneath the continuous blue line at the top.

So, this line has no prior or post - it just is, and everything is happening at some point in our time, relative to us, under it.

But the result is exactly the same.

God KNOWS the guy will leave the house, God KNOWS He will kill the neighbor, God KNOWS he will die unrepentant, and God KNOWS HE will, in line with His justice, will condemn him to hell.

Because it has all happened under this continuous blue line.



Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

A couple of things. In John’s gospel (chapter 13), Jesus tells the apostles that one of them will betray him. …So, Judas had already decided on his own to betray Jesus, prior to be passed the morsel.
Keeping this in mind, you can see that Jesus knew it had happened, but he didn’t force it to happen

Ok.

But why use **’‘will’’ betray **- something that is going to happen at some point in the future, if the event has already happened?

Is John wrong?

Did Jesus not know that Judas had already betrayed Him?

He says - what you are about to do - do quickly.

But according to what you’re saying, it had already been done?

Sarah x

 

[JDaniel]

I disagree.
People who would only do his will would not have free will. They would not be persons but robots. As such, they would not be doing his will in a meritorious way.

Exactly. How could God expect to receive filial (not agape) love from a robot - which is precisely what Christ was here to show (i.e., teach to) us?

When I say God has only one choice, I mean he doesn’t have the* second choice* of creating only those people he knows will be saved, because he can’t know that if he never creates them. It is no limitation on God’s omniscience that he doesn’t know the unknowable. There is nothing there to be known, if he doesn’t create somebody.

He would know that which is not simply a mere contradiction, He would know a penultimate contradiction, i.e., a contradiction expressed as being opposed to non-being, or better yet, reality opposed to non-reality.

God bless,
jd

 

[paul_c]

Paul:

What does this stuff mean?

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

God bless,
jd

JD,
understanding the Catholic teaching on predestination can be difficult. It involves understanding how man;s free will can co-exist with God’s omnipotence. This article from the catholic encyclopedia I found particularly enlightening on the matter:

newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

The net is that in Catholic teaching:

Some men are predestined to heaven
No man is predestined to hell - all have the ability to be saved.
God is so great that he can control all things while still allowing man to have true free will.
This article describes the basic theories on how that can occur.

 

[prodigalson2011]

Ok.

But why use **’‘will’’ betray **- something that is going to happen at some point in the future, if the event has already happened?

Is John wrong?

Did Jesus not know that Judas had already betrayed Him?

He says - what you are about to do - do quickly.

But according to what you’re saying, it had already been done?

Sarah x

This particular point is fairly easily resolved. Judas’ betrayal was not yet complete. He could have backed out. His actual betrayal was in the act of leading the Sanhedrin to Jesus in the garden so that they could arrest Him. This was what Judas was “about to do.” What he had done previously was only to make arrangements for the betrayal.

 

[paul_c]

Ok.

But why use **’‘will’’ betray **- something that is going to happen at some point in the future, if the event has already happened?

Well, Judas has previousy agreed with the chief priests to turn Jesus over, but he doesn’t actually do it until later that night.

Is John wrong?

No John is not wrong. Both bible references can easily be seen to coexist, each reporting a different facet as to what happened, each from their own viewpoint.

Did Jesus not know that Judas had already betrayed Him?

Of course he knew that Judas was in the process of betraying him. He is God, after all.

He says - what you are about to do - do quickly.

But according to what you’re saying, it had already been done?

Sarah x

Judas had already agreed to lead the chief priest to Jesus but he didn’t actually accomplish that until later in the evening in the Garden of Gethsemane…

 

[Anthony_V]

I think part of the reason I’m having such a hard time with this, is because, ultimately, it just amounts to the same thing.

I am imagining a long blue line - this represents God.

Underneath this blue line, lots of things are going on - for example, a car driving, someone getting exam results, someone sitting an exam, someone killing someone, someone giving birth, all of human life is there.

All of this activity is happening underneath the continuous blue line at the top.

So, this line has no prior or post - it just is, and everything is happening at some point in our time, relative to us, under it.

But the result is exactly the same.

God KNOWS the guy will leave the house, God KNOWS He will kill the neighbor, God KNOWS he will die unrepentant, and God KNOWS HE will, in line with His justice, will condemn him to hell.

Because it has all happened under this continuous blue line.



Sarah x

Peace be with you.

God gives every person sufficient grace for salvation. Graces are efficacious by the cooperation of one’s will to the graces provided. In this, God gives graces according to his nature–freely–and we receive graces according to our nature, which is in the likeness of God–freely. The will of God and the will of man are thus mutually exclusive of each other.

 

[JDaniel]

So are you saying, lets say, two years earlier, God did NOT know that Judas would betray Him?

Sarah:

How could there be “past” where God is concerned? I know you are smart enough to understand this. You’re simply unfamiliar with what “infinity” precisely means. Infinity is always in the present; this instant; Now; this very moment, EVERYWHERE. It’s not as though part of Him, way over there, is in the past (or the future). He has no prior and no posterior.

I am trying to but sheesh, my brain isn’t cut out for this kinda stuff

Yes it is. Think of a being that engulfs all that exists, all that is real, bigger than anything you or I have ever conceived, all of that sequence of events that was our past, and all that will be our future. Now, think, what part of Him is in the past? Our “future” is not God’s future.

Remember, even the Universe is finite. It is very large, so large in fact, that we sometimes call it “transfinite.” But, we never call the Universe, “infinite.”

Our Universe must have a past and will have a future. For us, neither of them exist. The past is gone, obliterated. The future is not yet. So, even for us, we exist in a now, but it is a Now for finite being, not a Now for infinite being.

Perhaps somebody can explain this better for you than I am.

God bless, Sarah,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

JD,
understanding the Catholic teaching on predestination can be difficult. It involves understanding how man;s free will can co-exist with God’s omnipotence. This article from the catholic encyclopedia I found particularly enlightening on the matter:

newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

The net is that in Catholic teaching:

Some men are predestined to heaven
No man is predestined to hell - all have the ability to be saved.
God is so great that he can control all things while still allowing man to have true free will.
This article describes the basic theories on how that can occur.

Paul:

I concur. Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

But that’s what I’m questioning - when Jesus passed Judas the bread, having just said the person He passes the bread to will betray Him, Judas could NOT then NOT betray Jesus, or he would have proven Jesus in error, and that could never happen!

Technically, he could have not betrayed Jesus. We assume we know the intentions of the other deciples, but we don’t. They subsequently appear to be steadfast followers of christ, but, if one or more were not, one of them could have betrayed Christ.

So Judas did NOT have a choice!

Judas had a choice.

Until that point Judas had NOT betrayed Jesus. These events were yet to happen. But it seems to me he had no choice to after the bread, otherwise Jesus’ words would not be true!

But, doesn’t action usually - unless it’s mindless - follow deliberation and intent? And, do we know Judas’ intent from anything we’ve read in Scripture prior to this?

God bless,
jd

 

[prodigalson2011]

Let’s assume that God knows every true proposition, and doesn’t learn any truths (he already knows them). Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created. Then, it follows that God knows all of them before creating any person.
**
The question then is, why didn’t God create only those persons he knew would freely choose heaven?**

Some say it’s because the propositions describing persons as going to heaven could only be true, if propositions describing others as going to hell were true. That is, God couldn’t create only people who’d freely choose heaven. This is an easy target since all we need to do to rebut it is conceive of a possible world in which God creates only persons who freely choose heaven. Easy enough.
**
Another suggestion is that it’s because God could get more people to heaven, by letting a few go to hell. Then we have God treating some persons as mere means to ends. Super.
**

In regards to the first bolded statement, would this not effectively negate free will? In so limiting the liberty of his creation by eliminating those elements which would run contrary to His will, He would essentially be contradicting His own purposes. It would be much like administering a multiple choice test with only one answer from which to choose.

As to the second bolded section, this is just bad theology. It is self evident that free will implies an ability to reject God’s will. It has nothing to do with getting more people to heaven. It has everything to do with presenting a choice. Bad choices are a necessary consequence of that proposition.

 

[Anthony_V]

Sarah:

How could there be “past” where God is concerned? I know you are smart enough to understand this. You’re simply unfamiliar with what “infinity” precisely means. Infinity is always in the present; this instant; Now; this very moment, EVERYWHERE. It’s not as though part of Him, way over there, is in the past (or the future). He has no prior and no posterior.

Very well put. It hard to understand, in our finite minds, that God exists in an infinite “now”, but not in a way such that he exists at all times at the same time. Otherwise, he would be and infinite being bound by the same “time-travel paradox” that the sci-fi nerd conventions rage over. Bluntly put, there would be no logical conclusion to the extent of that which exists: you cannot exist more than existence exists.

Yes it is. Think of a being that engulfs all that exists, all that is real, bigger than anything you or I have ever conceived, all of that sequence of events that was our past, and all that will be our future. Now, think, what part of Him is in the past? Our “future” is not God’s future.

Remember, even the Universe is finite. It is very large, so large in fact, that we sometimes call it “transfinite.” But, we never call the Universe, “infinite.”

Our Universe must have a past and will have a future. For us, neither of them exist. The past is gone, obliterated. The future is not yet. So, even for us, we exist in a now, but it is a Now for finite being, not a Now for infinite being.

Perhaps somebody can explain this better for you than I am.

God bless, Sarah,
jd

You are correct. The way an infinite being “experiences” (for lack of a better word) time is the opposite of how a finite being experiences time. A finite nature must experience infinity in a finite manner. An infinite nature “experiences” infinity in an infinite matter, which isn’t something we can totally wrap our head around. Needless to say, predestination is simply a feeble attempt to try and explain this phenomenon. It will always be missing a the puzzle piece of an infinite sentience.

 

[JDaniel]

”The words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel. He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation” (Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, 185-6).
General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II:

*"Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no,” which marks the (human) creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Eternal damnation remains a possibility*, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6)"
Many Catholics have interpreted the above passages to mean that it is permissible for a Catholic to believe that Hell exists, but at that same time hope in the POSSIBILITY that no human souls occupy it, and no human souls will ever be there. See, e.g., firstthings.com/article/2008/08/the-population-of-hell-23

Bartolome:

Thanks for pointing us to that.

God bless,
jd