Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true

[buffalo]

If we start with one organism and it does a lineage split and then these two split again and this happens over and over we get many many “species”

23 generations of splitting gives 8 million

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Is there some sort of evidence that backs this up?

The 2nd law. Things were better at the beginning and deteriorating vs things were bad at the beginning and now getting better.

Ah. I see your problem. You think the planet is an isolated system. Do you need me to explain further or can you read up on this yourself?

But it kinda messes up your claim for evidence. Can we give it another go?

 

[Wozza]

If we start with one organism and it does a lineage split and then these two split again and this happens over and over we get many many “species”

23 generations of splitting gives 8 million

Ah. I see why you’ve put ‘species’ in scare quotes. It’s because you are talking about reproduction. Not speciation. Do you need more (name removed by moderator)ut from me on the difference?

 

[buffalo]

Ah. I see your problem. You think the planet is an isolated system. Do you need me to explain further or can you read up on this yourself?

You can try to convince me how the sun is adding functionally specified complex information into our “system”. Do you believe in the Sun god?

 

[buffalo]

Ah. I see why you’ve put ‘species’ in scare quotes. It’s because you are talking about reproduction. Not speciation. Do you need more (name removed by moderator)ut from me on the difference?

Yes, educate us on the definition of species.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Ah. I see why you’ve put ‘species’ in scare quotes. It’s because you are talking about reproduction. Not speciation. Do you need more (name removed by moderator)ut from me on the difference?

Yes, educate us on the definition of species.

Well, if a mummy fungi and a daddy funghi have a little baby funghi (or one of them splits into two), then that’s not a new species. It’s just the next generation.

 

[buffalo]

Well, if a mummy fungi and a daddy funghi have a little baby funghi (or one of them splits into two), then that’s not a new species. It’s just the next generation.

We are speaking of lineage splitting, not reproduction.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Ah. I see your problem. You think the planet is an isolated system. Do you need me to explain further or can you read up on this yourself?

You can try to convince me how the sun is adding functionally specified complex information into our “system”.

Why would I do that? I was simply explaining that the second law doesn’t apply to the planet. So if you are using that as evidence then it doesn’t count.

It’s wrong.

 

[buffalo]

I was simply explaining that the second law doesn’t apply to the planet.

Ahh, I see. It is excluded from the 2n law. Interesting.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

I was simply explaining that the second law doesn’t apply to the planet.

Ahh, I see. It is excluded from the 2n law. Interesting.

Yes, the second law only refers to isolated systems. It is quite interesting because most people don’t realise that.

So do you have any other evidence?

 

[buffalo]

Yes, the second law only refers to isolated systems. It is quite interesting because most people don’t realise that.

Where is the boundary of our system?

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Well, if a mummy fungi and a daddy funghi have a little baby funghi (or one of them splits into two), then that’s not a new species. It’s just the next generation.

We are speaking of lineage splitting, not reproduction.

So if two lineages split, we end up with two separate species? We could give that a kind of scientific term to avoid repeating ‘when two lineages split they form two new species’. Bit of a mouthful.

Why don’t we call it speciation? Has a nice ring to it.

 

[buffalo]

So if two lineages split, we end up with two separate species?

Species = lineage splitting.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Yes, the second law only refers to isolated systems. It is quite interesting because most people don’t realise that.

Where is the boundary of our system?

I’m not sure you are following. An isolated system is isolated. Within a boundary. The earth is not an isolated system. So…? Why are you asking about where the boundary might be in a non-isolated system?

The second law cannot be used as an example. You need another.

 

[rossum]

You can try to convince me how the sun is adding functionally specified complex information into our “system”.

The Second Law refers to entropy, not “functionally specified complex information”. The presence of the sun makes the earth an open system; there is an external energy source supplying a lot of energy to the earth.

Since “functionally specified complex information” is your concept, you need to tell us how it is affected by changes in entropy driven by the energy (name removed by moderator)ut from the Sun. We already know that information can be increased by energy (name removed by moderator)uts. With a large enough quantity of information that information becomes complex. That leaves “functionally specified” for you to a) define and b) provide an objective measure for.

As I am sure you realise, we cannot talk about an increase or a decrease in some quantity unless we have a way to accurately measurement that quantity. It is up to you to provide us with such a measurement technique.

 

[buffalo]

So…? Why are you asking about where the boundary might be in a non-isolated system?

So the earth system has no boundary? It is infinite?

 

[buffalo]

The Second Law refers to entropy,

Yes it does. And entropy is a measure of ???.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

So…? Why are you asking about where the boundary might be in a non-isolated system?

So the earth system has no boundary? It is infinite?

Ah. I see your confusion. You are mixing up ‘closed systems’ and ‘isolated systems’.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

So if two lineages split, we end up with two separate species?

Species = lineage splitting.

Rock and roll! We have agreed on speciation. One small step for Buff. One giant leap for evolution.

 

[rossum]

Why would I do that? I was simply explaining that the second law doesn’t apply to the planet.

I have to disagree with you here, the SLoT does apply to earth. However, the simple ‘closed system’ version of the SLoT does not apply because, as you say, the earth is not a closed system.

Far too many creationists do not realise the effect of having an open system has on the results from applying SLoT.

There is a classic example from 2005 of a creationist coming agonisingly close to getting it right, but falling at the last hurdle:

One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn’t possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.

Source: God or Big Bang/Evolution: Where do we Come From? | Page 6 | Smashboards

For those of you who don’t realise, yes there is such an energy source and scientists do know about it.