WhyMe and others: Can you Be Catholic and LDS at the same time?

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks, but, let me try this once more - I wrote:​

• That doesn’t explain why the CC appears to have one rule for Jewish converts to RCism, & an entirely different rule for Protestant converts to RCism. There seems to be no principle in the behaviour of the CC. So if the difference does rest on principle - what is the principle ?​

If Catholics cannot double as Protestants, but must leave their Protestantism behind: why are Jews allowed to continue observing Jewish religious rites, instead of being required to leave those behind ? No matter how I turn this question around, from angle to angle, I can’t make any sense of why there is this difference. What principle is the basis for the difference ? I can’t see any I’m not surprised the OP is doubling as a Mormon - it looks as though he has every justification (in practice even though not in principle) for doing so. If there can be RC Jews (in the religious sense - “Judaist” does not quite fit, & sounds pejorative anyway), why can there not be RC Mormons, or RC Anglicans, or RC Anything-else you-care-to-name ?

There is the fact that the CC teaches that Jews remain in their covenant with God.

From the CC point of view, there is no covenant separate for Protestants that exists outside of the Catholic Church. This teaching is clear, even to the point that a valid baptism in a Protestant Church is only valid because of the Catholic Church.

To think that one can simultaneously recognize a separate covenant in Mormonism, outside of the CC, is nowhere to be found in Catholic teaching. It is nothing but wishful thinking as Mormons do not have the promises of the Jews. And, to the CC POV, they are completely something “other”, not of the same vine.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Gottle of Geer, this may give you an idea of how the CC views her relationship to Judaism.

“The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on November 17th, 1980: “the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked”.”

A Jewish priest is of the people of God of the Old Covenant, and by his Catholic baptism, part of the New Covenant. The priest has no obligation to deny what is rightfully his. He does have the obligation to adhere to Catholic teaching, and in his Jewish practices, not incorporate anything that denies the reality of Jesus.

If you think about it, when celebrating God’s covenant as a Jew, while simultaneously celebrating the New Covenant, such a person has the truest understanding possible of WHO THEY ARE.

There is no such thing for Mormons, or Protestants.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Not really, because it doesn’t explain why it is wrong for Protestant converts to Catholicism to be active Protestants afterwards. If a Jew can become a Catholic and carry on as a Jew whereas a Protestant who becomes a Catholic can’t carry on as Protestant, the disparity needs explaining. The Jew in Whyme’s link is not only a Catholic, but a Catholic priest; which magnifies the scandal greatly.​

The disparity in what is allowed to whom, is all the more serious because talk about who is a member of the Church is a matter of dogma. What we are talking about affects RCism at its core - this not something of trifling importance, but something that goes to the heart of the Church’s self-understanding. It could hardly be more serious. Which is why I’ve been asking for an answer all these times. I’m beginning to think the Church couldn’t care less who is a member of it, or why - but if the Church does not give a hoot for its own dogma, why should we average pew-fillers ? If it can’t take its own dogma seriously, why should the rest of us bother wrapping our brains around what we are told is dogma revealed by Almighty God ? The lack of seriousness shown by the Church for what it claims to find so extremely important, is very draining, very exhausting, very discouraging. One has to wonder whether the whole panoply of doctrine and dogma & authority, is any thing more than a gigantic fraud

No one can become a Catholic and “carry on” as something else. Anyone who believes they can do so is misguided, at best.

The problem you are looking at is probably not a problem of the CHURCH, it is most likely a problem with persons acting contrary to the teachings of the Church. The persons you cite, assuming they are examples of real persons, if they “carry on” as you say as their former selves ~ Jews, Protestants, whatever ~ to the extent that they depart from the Catholic faith they are separating themselves from the Catholic faith and, as such, are no longer Catholic. If you are truly seeing such poor examples of “Catholics” then it is very sad because they are extremely poor examples. They’re not even Catholic in any real sense.

Perhaps the thing that frustrates you is something I, once, did not understand. History is full of grand examples of Popes ex-communicating persons for public scandals in relation to the Catholic faith. Some were genuine, some were most likely political. It’s history, and not all of it a happy history. But it’s still HISTORY.

Today, many people do many things that separate themselves from the Catholic faith. But the public act of a church official is not necessarily required for excommunication. So there is no grand drama. Actions contrary to the faith result in automatic self-excommunication. You don’t get an official notice. There’s nothing publicly announced. From the standpoint of the outside observer, it’s quite true that nothing apparently changes. But a great deal HAS CHANGED. The person who self-excommunicates is no longer Catholic, is living in a state of mortal sin, is not worthy to receive the Eucharist and should they do so risks their immortal soul. It’s not something a real Catholic would trifle with.

A “fake” Catholic on the other hand ~ who knows what they would do? Your examples are not of real Catholics, they’re of “wannabe” Catholics at best. I’m sorry that you’ve seen such poor examples. I submit you’d see better at your local parish. I can promise you you would see better at MY local parish. God Bless!

 

[Benadam]

to have one rule for Jewish converts to RCism, & an entirely different rule for Protestant converts to RCism. There seems to be no principle in the behaviour of the CC. So if the difference does rest on principle - what is the principle ?

I think I understand now. The appearance scandalizes. So, the freedom, even if allowed in principle isn’t worth the cost. Is that what you mean?

 

[why_me]

I haven’t looked at the thread in a while, but maybe - maybe - someone will have had a few ideas. I certainly hope so. I’m beginning to think that you may be in a very strong position, if that kind of shenanigan is allowed in the CC. Maybe it’s time I went back to Anglicanism - I can always couple it with Catholicism. What reason is there not to ? I feel at least as strongly about Anglicanism as he does about Judaism; if he doesn’t have togive up Judaism to be a Catholic - why should you, or I, give up what we value in order to be Catholic ?​

If this is an ecclesiological mess, it’s one of the Church’s own making.

I think that you would need to look into history to figure all this out. First, the relationship between the catholic church and the jewish faith and the catholic understanding of who killed christ. The Catholic Church is attempting to distance itself from blaming the jewish people. Also, what happened during the holocaust when the catholic church in germany gave genealogy information to the nazi’s to ferret out new or somewhat new jewish converts to the catholic faith. If discovered to be new or somewhat new, they were sent to the camps. I discovered this in a book by Sam Harris. Also, the new jewish ndid not get such a warm welcome from some catholics during the nazi period…a lot of fights broke out on the street even before Mass.

Now of course one can gleam a lot from the internet that is not positive toward the catholic church. But is what I wrote true? I have no idea. I would need to research more than just one book and some anticatholic sites.

Something that I would request the catholic posters do toward their mormon information. But I do believe that the allowance is due history and an attempt to placate Jewish anger toward the catholic church. But I could be wrong.

 

[why_me]

Now the problem with this thread is that people assume that I am a superactive mormon complete with paying tithing and wearing temple garments. A person with callings in the mormon church etc. And that would be not true. One can be jewish and catholic because jewishness is not just defined by faith but by tradition and culture. And I am sure that if a jewish catholic would celebrate some jewish traditions and religious expressions no catholic here would give that person a hard time.

And so…there should be no fuss with me.

 

[Religio71]

Gottle of Geer, this may give you an idea of how the CC views her relationship to Judaism.

“The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on November 17th, 1980: “the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked”.”

A Jewish priest is of the people of God of the Old Covenant, and by his Catholic baptism, part of the New Covenant. The priest has no obligation to deny what is rightfully his. He does have the obligation to adhere to Catholic teaching, and in his Jewish practices, not incorporate anything that denies the reality of Jesus.

If you think about it, when celebrating God’s covenant as a Jew, while simultaneously celebrating the New Covenant, such a person has the truest understanding possible of WHO THEY ARE.

There is no such thing for Mormons, or Protestants.

This is correct. One needs to understand the covenant relationship between God and the Jews, and that this relationship has not ended, at least in the view of the Catholic Church.

Catholicism and Judaism both have the same source. Catholicism has its roots in Judaism. Thus I can see why some may want to recite Jewish prayers (I have a Catholic prayer book that includes some Jewish prayers).

With Mormonism, the stark difference is that if one is to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet called by God, that means that the Church apostasized, or that the priesthood authority was taken away from the earth, and only restored in the LDS Church. It makes no logical sense to try to be a Mormon and a Catholic at the same time, since to be a Mormon means to believe that only the LDS Church has a valid priesthood, with authority from God. This would thus invalidate all Catholic sacraments. Also, we believe in completely different Gods. For Catholics, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 Persons, consubstantial (one in being/essence/substance/whatever you want to call it), one God. For Mormons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only one in purpose, intent, will, and NOT substance. Also for Mormons, the Father has a body of flesh and bones, and is married to the Heavenly Mother. None of these are compatible with Catholicism. With the Jewish covenant relationship with God, as well as their traditional understandings of God (they do not believe in the Trinity, and the Old Testament does not explicitly teach the Trinity, though we do believe that there are hints that lead up to the full teaching in the New Testament), they do not diverge into a totally distinct understanding of God. Thus, for Catholics, if someone can be Mormon and Catholic, Hindus can also be Catholic as well.

 

[Religio71]

I think that you would need to look into history to figure all this out. First, the relationship between the catholic church and the jewish faith and the catholic understanding of who killed christ. The Catholic Church is attempting to distance itself from blaming the jewish people. Also, what happened during the holocaust when the catholic church in germany gave genealogy information to the nazi’s to ferret out new or somewhat new jewish converts to the catholic faith. If discovered to be new or somewhat new, they were sent to the camps. I discovered this in a book by Sam Harris. Also, the new jewish ndid not get such a warm welcome from some catholics during the nazi period…a lot of fights broke out on the street even before Mass.

Now of course one can gleam a lot from the internet that is not positive toward the catholic church. But is what I wrote true? I have no idea. I would need to research more than just one book and some anticatholic sites.

Something that I would request the catholic posters do toward their mormon information. But I do believe that the allowance is due history and an attempt to placate Jewish anger toward the catholic church. But I could be wrong.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Catholicism and Judaism both have the same source. Catholicism has its roots in Judaism. Thus I can see why some may want to recite Jewish prayers (I have a Catholic prayer book that includes some Jewish prayers).

We recite them at Mass, every time we sing a Psalm.

 

[why_me]

this may give you an idea of how the CC views her relationship to Judaism.

“The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on November 17th, 1980: “the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked”.”

A Jewish priest is of the people of God of the Old Covenant, and by his Catholic baptism, part of the New Covenant. The priest has no obligation to deny what is rightfully his. He does have the obligation to adhere to Catholic teaching, and in his Jewish practices, not incorporate anything that denies the reality of Jesus.

If you think about it, when celebrating God’s covenant as a Jew, while simultaneously celebrating the New Covenant, such a person has the truest understanding possible of WHO THEY ARE.

There is no such thing for Mormons, or Protestants.

All this is fine with me. However, the question about why all this was made in 1980 in germany would be a good point to investigate. And of course, it would have to do with history and an attempt to make up for past sins against the jewish people.

And of course, can a catholic convert to the jewish faith and still be catholic under your understanding of why the priest can be both? It would seem so. But since the jewish faith would deny that christ is the messiah, would that be contradictory in general?

 

[Religio71]

We recite them at Mass, every time we sing a Psalm.

Exactly! I don’t think we’ll hear anyone singing If You Could Hie to Kolob at Mass at any point (I do like the tune).

 

[why_me]

Religio71:
Religio, instead of doing a stephen why not comment on the issue. I found the source in a book that has been published by a good publisher and the book was on the bestseller list. But can I verify at this moment other sources that what was claimed true? No. I have no such sources infront of me. But it is an interesting way to respond, just paste a past post and leave it at that. But it doesn’t change or refute what I wrote.

samharris.org/

The book is called The End of Faith and can be seen in the link.

 

[Religio71]

Religio, instead of doing a stephen why not comment on the issue. I found the source in a book that has been published by a good publisher and the book was on the bestseller list. But can I verify at this moment other sources that what was claimed true? No. I have no such sources infront of me. But it is an interesting way to respond, just paste a past post and leave it at that. But it doesn’t change or refute what I wrote.

samharris.org/

The book is called The End of Faith and can be seen in the link.

 

[why_me]

We recite them at Mass, every time we sing a Psalm.

Mormons and protestants study the psalms. I would also assume that protestants sing portions of the Psalms too during their services in their hymns. Maybe the mormons do also.

 

[Religio71]

This is correct. One needs to understand the covenant relationship between God and the Jews, and that this relationship has not ended, at least in the view of the Catholic Church.

Catholicism and Judaism both have the same source. Catholicism has its roots in Judaism. Thus I can see why some may want to recite Jewish prayers (I have a Catholic prayer book that includes some Jewish prayers).

With Mormonism, the stark difference is that if one is to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet called by God, that means that the Church apostasized, or that the priesthood authority was taken away from the earth, and only restored in the LDS Church. It makes no logical sense to try to be a Mormon and a Catholic at the same time, since to be a Mormon means to believe that only the LDS Church has a valid priesthood, with authority from God. This would thus invalidate all Catholic sacraments. Also, we believe in completely different Gods. For Catholics, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 Persons, consubstantial (one in being/essence/substance/whatever you want to call it), one God. For Mormons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only one in purpose, intent, will, and NOT substance. Also for Mormons, the Father has a body of flesh and bones, and is married to the Heavenly Mother. None of these are compatible with Catholicism. With the Jewish covenant relationship with God, as well as their traditional understandings of God (they do not believe in the Trinity, and the Old Testament does not explicitly teach the Trinity, though we do believe that there are hints that lead up to the full teaching in the New Testament), they do not diverge into a totally distinct understanding of God. Thus, for Catholics, if someone can be Mormon and Catholic, Hindus can also be Catholic as well.

 

[why_me]

Here are some facts about what happened:

books.google.fi/books?id=QpEAYMo7pFkC&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=did+the+catholic+church+hand+over+genealogy+records+to+the+nazis&source=bl&ots=VNTrlVd89y&sig=tJGaVohu6xDQAHWrn2mxb_m9Wco&hl=fi&ei=yD2OSr27EdDK_gbm0oHrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I think that we can see that sam harris was correct. But of course, he did claim if I am not mistaken that the official position about jewish converts was stated as mentioned above but churches did hand over records. And of course those who were not catholic, were mainly jewish.

Here is another site that claims the same thing. It is a jewish religous site:

Finally, it should now be clear that the church should cease efforts to canonise Pius XII. He oversaw a church that, during the war, continued centuries-old practices of anti-semitism, knowing that the Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered. He presided over a church where German priests used its genealogical records to help the Nazis determine whom to persecute as a Jew and that officially continued for more than a decade after the Holocaust to teach that all Jews for all time are guilty as Christ-killers.

shearim.blogspot.com/2008/09/stealing-jewish-children-during.html

Now I don’t like these sites at all. I think that they are extreme and dogmatic. And filled with anger. But since I was challenged I had to search the web. Personally, I see no value in the site that I linked to because it is filled with anger, the same anger that one can find on former mormon sites. And even though the person writing what he did is not a former catholic, as a jew, he has a lot of anger toward the catholic church which is unfortunate.

 

[Religio71]

Here are some facts about what happened:

books.google.fi/books?id=QpEAYMo7pFkC&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=did+the+catholic+church+hand+over+genealogy+records+to+the+nazis&source=bl&ots=VNTrlVd89y&sig=tJGaVohu6xDQAHWrn2mxb_m9Wco&hl=fi&ei=yD2OSr27EdDK_gbm0oHrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I think that we can see that sam harris was correct. But of course, he did claim if I am not mistaken that the official position about jewish converts was stated as mentioned above but churches did hand over records. And of course those who were not catholic, were mainly jewish.

Here is another site that claims the same thing. It is a jewish religous site:

Finally, it should now be clear that the church should cease efforts to canonise Pius XII. He oversaw a church that, during the war, continued centuries-old practices of anti-semitism, knowing that the Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered. He presided over a church where German priests used its genealogical records to help the Nazis determine whom to persecute as a Jew and that officially continued for more than a decade after the Holocaust to teach that all Jews for all time are guilty as Christ-killers.

shearim.blogspot.com/2008/09/stealing-jewish-children-during.html

Now I don’t like these sites at all. I think that they are extreme and dogmatic. And filled with anger. But since I was challenged I had to search the web. Personally, I see no value in the site that I linked to because it is filled with anger, the same anger that one can find on former mormon sites. And even though the person writing what he did is not a former catholic, as a jew, he has a lot of anger toward the catholic church which is unfortunate.

 

[why_me]

Religio71:
Religio,

Thank you for highlighting how I feel about such things. I really do not like going to those sights but since you challenged me to do so through a paste and reposting (highlighted by bold black) of what I said previously said, I had to do so.

 

[Religio71]

Religio,

Thank you for highlighting how I feel about such things.** I really do not like going to those sights** but since you challenged me to do so through a paste and reposting (highlighted by bold black) of what I said previously said,* I had to do so*.

 

[twopekinguys]