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PaulDupre
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He should also learn the difference between apostasy and heresy. Mormons confuse the two.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Amazed ? I bet you were. How’s this ?
- “We see ourselves rooted in Israeli society with a real respect for Jews as they see themselves and we follow the Jewish liturgical calendar and observe many of their holidays like Sukkot and Hanukkah,” explained Fr. David Mark Neuhaus, vicar for the Hebrew-speaking community in the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Neuhaus, a 47-year-old Jesuit priest, was raised a Jew in South Africa and became a Catholic while studying in Jerusalem.
- “I attend a Reform synagogue regularly,” said Neuhaus, who speaks with the clarity of a seasoned lecturer. “I go to the synagogue as an expression of who I am historically, socially and, to a certain extent, spiritually. The melodies of the synagogue are much closer to my heart than the chants in a Benedictine monastery because I grew up with those melodies. Many of our members attend synagogue as an act of solidarity.” Neuhaus points out that Israel is the only society where Jews constitute a majority and the Jewish religion, history and culture establish the rhythm of life for the Catholic community.
- [FindArticles.com | CBSi (FindArticles.com | CBSi)
As for growing up with things - a lot of converts from Anglicanism did so: maybe we feel as strongly about our past influences as this fellow does about his - so if he doesn’t have to give his up, why should we give up ours ? What are the principles that allow Catholics to double as Jews by religion, but not to double (say) Anglicans by religion ?
I hope there is a principled theological explanation of this…
What the man is doing is either compatible with Catholicism - or it is syncretism, & should be treated accordingly. If it is compatible with Catholicism - how come ?
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robert7685
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While it is not possible to be a faithful member of both, it is technically possible, considering that to leave either requires actually requesting being removed from membership. While I identify myself as catholic, I still have a membership record with the LDS Church. Unless I actually tell a Mormon priesthood authority, I will just be considered “inactive.” By the way, I am inclined to call shenanigans on this thread. It seems, to me at least, that this is an attempt to discredit certain posters rather than focus on the theological debate. Some of you guys will no doubt insist this is fair game, but I just don’t see it that way.
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RoryMcKenzie56
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With all due respect to amiable folks who claim to be adherents of more than one religion at the same time…well said by you robert 7685. It is just sentimentalism, not sound thinking that makes anyone say this. Does the Mormon/Catholic qualify for a Temple Recommend as a Mormon who believes in Catholicism? No. Do they legitimately receive Holy Communion or Confirmation as Catholics who believe in Mormonism? No. They are neither Mormon nor Catholic. But as you suggested, perhaps they are both, whatever that means.They can be Catholic and Mormon so long as they reject just about everything that makes someone a Catholic or a Mormon. When they cease to be either, it may be possible to be both. I guess
God bless you
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why_me
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The catholic church would be very careful in calling a lay person a heretic. The word brings up connotations that the church may wish to avoid. We need to remember what happened to lay heretics a few hundred years ago. In god’s ‘mercy’ they were burned at the stake.
But of course we do know that it wasn’t god at all but dictates of men. And this is the problem when men and women lose touch with the mercy of god. No one on this forum would consider such a policy just.
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why_me
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I happened to allude to something like this before: that a jew who becomes a chistian may still be considered a jew. I believe that the catholic church because of its image in WWII is very careful not to upturn the apple cart in this matter. And since mormonism is not just a religion but a way of life, I can see someone still being both. For example, the priest that I spoke with wanted me to drink alcohol not because of my mormonism but because there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. But I still refused and it was because of my mormonism.
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why_me
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It is strange. But then again, it may be understandable because of history. Catholics and jews did not exactly get along. The RC has been accused of persecution of the jewish minority where the catholic church held sway. It may be an attempt at reconciliation.
But of course, you bring up a good question. Technically it would be far worse to attend a jewish temple and still be jewish as a catholic since they do not recognize Christ as the messiah. But on the other hand, since jews are not christians they may not be considered a threat to catholic hegemony. But another chrisitan group would. But in the end, it does tend to muddle the waters a little.
And posters on this forum would be hard pressed to be critical of me.
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zaffiroborant
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And all that has what to do with you excommunicating yourself from the church through your heresy?
Your receiving Communion in the Catholic Church shows your utter contempt for our beliefs. Every time you receive Communion you take advantage of those administering to you, you present yourself as someone in communion with the Church and they trust that you are who you present yourself as, but you’re not, you don’t believe a bit of what the Catholic Church teach if you did you would not hold on to (or defend) Mormon heresy. You are lying to those who give you Communion.
Not to mention that your constant defense of Mormonism shows where your belief and heart lies and just underscores your low opinion of Catholicism.
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why_me
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Hardly. I think that you are being too hostile. God knows what is in my heart. Unfortunately your ideas is what caused hardship for many people in the past. Many people lost their lives in the middle ages and dark ages because men and women acted as judge. I do defend mormonism from people who seem not to understand that it is a good faith. I really don’t involve myself in doctrinal matters these days. But against false accusations I do. And most of the debates on this forum have to do with the trinity. Actually, it matters little to me what the mormons and catholics think of the trinity. And I don’t think that it matters to god at all. Both faiths believe that christ was the savior and both faiths have heavenly father. How they interprete it all makes no difference to me as long as mormons and catholics show compassion, love, charity and kindness to their fellow human beings.
Did you show such traits in your above post?
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zaffiroborant
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Oh evil Catholic priest, just wants you to drink alcohol, just cause.??? Oh really it’s okay just have this drink, nothing wrong having a drink. Catholic priests just live to get others to drink alcohol, it’s their rasion de etre. Like whyme said every priest I’ve ever met have always urged me to drink. Cause that’s what they do???
It’s garbage like this that makes me certain that you are MSU about your interactions with your “nuns and priests” and also why I take offense at your claim to being Catholic. You go on about being nice and accepting but every thing you say always has a negative spin on Catholics and Catholicism followed by a positive spin on Mormonism.
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zaffiroborant
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You think I’m hostile and I think you are lying to the people you present yourself to as a believing Catholic. I think by doing this you are disrespecting their belief. I would not present myself for Communion in an Orthodox Church out of respect for their belief why do you feel it’s okay to participate under false pretenses?
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RebeccaJ
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I don’t think so whyme. The Catholic church has an ancient history, with Jewish roots. Jesus was Jewish. All of the Apostles were Jewish. The Liturgy is rooted in the Jewish liturgy.
However, culturally speaking, there is no reason for you, or any other convert, to give up cultural practices and traditions, as long as they are faithful to the Magisterium. So you don’t drink alcohol because that is how you were as a mormon, NOT a big deal. Hardly worth mentioning. There is no doctrine, teaching or practice that says you have to drink alcohol. (Except not receiving the Cup…you should, unless there are circumstances such as illness, immunity problems, alcoholism, etc.)
However, taking the sacrament at a LDS meeting IS a big deal. It is not being faithful to the Magisterium.
You need to work with a priest on this. Seriously. Not kidding. There is no shame in this. All people have their struggles. It is not good to sit in obstinate denial. You should be concerned for your soul.
(You might find this to be an interesting website: Association of Hebrew Catholics.)
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PaulDupre
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I have never believed why me’s stories about hanging out with priests and nuns (too many Bing Crosby movies?) or going to mass, or this latest tall tale about a priest trying to get him to drink alcohol. That just doesn’t happen; priests are trained to be very sensitive to the trials of recovering alcoholics and never try to get people to drink.Oh evil Catholic priest, just wants you to drink alcohol, just cause.??? Oh really it’s okay just have this drink, nothing wrong having a drink. Catholic priests just live to get others to drink alcohol, it’s their rasion de etre. Like whyme said every priest I’ve ever met have always urged me to drink. Cause that’s what they do???
It’s garbage like this that makes me certain that you are MSU about your interactions with your “nuns and priests” and also why I take offense at your claim to being Catholic. You go on about being nice and accepting but every thing you say always has a negative spin on Catholics and Catholicism followed by a positive spin on Mormonism.
Everything why me says about his involvement in the Catholic Church sounds like something he read on the internet, and nothing like a person who has actually been a practicing Catholic.
Come on, why me, we’re all wise to you. You can stop now.
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zerinus
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I think that you simply do not understand the most basic element of law. A statute book, or a canon law, or any other legal code you can think of, including Islamic Sharia law, no matter how it is worded, cannot execute that law. The execution of the law can only be carried out by a judge, a real, living judge . Let’s take a look at the canon law you had cited:ok, I believe I advised you of this earlier, and I will advise you of it again:
learn the difference between being declared excommunicated, and excommunication latae sententiae. Then we can talk.
Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.
This merely lays down what the punishment for apostasy or heresy is. It does not determine whether a particular person is an apostate or a heretic. That determination can only be made by a real judge . By unilaterally declaring Why Me to be a heretic, you are acting as a judge, which you have no right to be.
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zerinus
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That is an irrelevance. The procedure for getting yourself exed as a heretic or an apostate should not be that much different. That article I quoted from was advising you on how to get yourself exed from the RCC as an apostate. If you wanted to get exed as a heretic, how different would that be?
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Religio71
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Zerinus, do a Google search of “latae sententiae”, then continue the discussion. You are misunderstanding the whole point of it. The most prominent example of latae sententiae excommunication is abortion. If you do that search, you will see it upheld that a Catholic that receives an abortion is “automatically excommunicated”. Similarly, a Catholic that believes heretical doctrines, such as the Father having a body of flesh and bones, would also be “automatically excommunicated”. That is what excommunication latae sententiae means. I have already cited the Canon Law that defines what a heretic is, what an apostate is, etc. I don’t have to declare why me anything, the Canon Law defines it. So please, try again. You may not agree with it, but this is standard Catholic doctrine, on excommunication latae sententiae.
"In the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, the term latae sententiae refers to a penalty that is incurred automatically without the need for a Bishop or other Church superior explicitely declaring it.
The latae sententiae penalty is always connected to a specific offence, so if someone commits such an offense, he/she is automatically subjected to the penalty, providing the general conditions of being punishable are met (such as age, free will, etc).
Only those penalties are latae sententiae that Canon Law expressly declares as such. All others are ferendae sententiae and do not apply until a Church authority officially proclaims them." (which is what you keep referring to, and which I am not even talking about).
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
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“The spiritual penalties are of two kinds: latae and ferendae sententiae. The former are incurred by the mere fact of heresy, no judicial sentence being required; the latter are inflicted after trial by an ecclesiastical court, or by a bishop acting ex informata conscientia, that is, on his own certain knowledge, and dispensing with the usual procedure”**
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“On the contrary, excommunication is occult when the offence entailing it is known to no one or almost no one.”**
Clearly, you are wrong here. No one needs to be declared by an authority to be in heresy or apostasy to be declared excommunicated latae sententiae. They are excommunicated by the simple fact of what they have done. It is clear what joining a false (in the Church’s view) church is. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated.
Again, read before commenting on this.
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Theodora
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This is an anecdotal story to all. You just have to take my word for it that it really happened
A Mormon family used to live nextdoor to us many years ago, and their family and ours were good friends. Then the family moved away, to Las Vegas. The parents still visit us once a year when they go to the largest fair we have here in So. Cal., the Pomona Fair.
One day one of the boys of that family visited and he asked me if I knew about St.Therese. I said Yes and he told me that he would like to ask her for a favor. For whatever reason I did not query him how he knew about this Saint, but was surprised.
I gave him a Novena prayer and two days later the boy came over and told me with a beaming face that, as he walked through the hallway of the highschool he attended, a girl he does not know walked up to him and handed him a rose. BTW, Saint Therese, before she died said she would shower roses from heaven as an indication that she has heard a petition.
I thought it too indiscrete at the time (in my mind, for sure, it had to do with a girl, but then who knows?) to ask him what favor he had asked for and - he never told me. It only shows, though, that Catholic Saints are not partial to Catholics only, but will also listen to a young boy belonging to the church of Latter Day Saints.
This reminds me, if I ever get to talk to him again, I am going to ask him about this little episode and for more details.
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Benadam
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Sorry for butting in…Zerinus, these catholics are very patient, don’t go on clinging to this false notion that a procedure is necessary for someone to be an excommunicant. What Catholics have been trying to inform you of is that there are things that people do that demonstrate that they are already excommunicants. The act demonstrates the truth of things it isn’t the cause nor could any procedure cause someone to be a heretic.
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Greg27
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I suppose if you were someone good at acting and duplicity something like this might be possible. I can’t see why any person would want to try something like this though.
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