X
Xantippe
Guest
And all earthly authority is limited. Finite human beings get finite authority.
- Status
B
Bannan
Guest
I am not grabbing at it, I’m trying to get you to realize it’s existence, because it’s important. How do I know that? Because its the first dang thing God said when talking about how a wife should relate to her husband.
So obviously no matter how hard you try to ignore your husbands authority, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have it.
You’ve got to be kidding me, you really think i’m advocating anything she was talking about? You really feel she has even an inkling of an idea of what I’m fighting for!? I’m appalled after all that I’ve said you still think I’m advocating misogyny at it’s most basic principles. Clearly our communication pathways are too cluttered to let any real information flow.
I’ve never said otherwise, call me a liar if you like. Though I hardly feel any more communication with you on this topic is worth the effort. I’ve resounded enough, gonged enough, and made a mess enough that this is no longer worth anyone’s time. I give up, you’ll never be convinced until God himself shows you his face, Lord knows he’s already told you in writing.
X
Xantippe
Guest
X
Xantippe
Guest
Bannan,
How would you know if you were going too far? What would the warning signs be?
In my personal case, I realized a couple months ago, hey, I should be able to go to bed when I feel sleepy, and I should be able to go to the grocery store or get a $12 haircut without having to have a big discussion to justify it.
My husband is a very nice person (just like Calvinist Janeway’s husband), but he got into some very bad habits, just as we all do.
I’ve had to lay down some ground rules with him, namely that we don’t have to optimize EVERYTHING. If a purchase is under $20, it’s morally neutral, and fits into the budget that we agree upon every month, I don’t think that we need to have a huge discussion about it. I am a responsible middle-aged adult and I do not need to be micromanaged. When my husband used to ask me to justify grocery trips or haircuts and my daily shower (he’s European by birth, so the American love of daily bathing doesn’t make sense to him), it made me feel about six inches high (particularly since I’m an SAHM). Women need love AND respect, and my husband was not being respectful when he did this stuff.
Fortunately, we had a series of talks about this stuff a couple months ago (about the time I found Calvinist Janeway and some other helpful sources) and he has really done much better over the last few months.
It’s a very sad thing, but any of us could be harming and humiliating our loved ones without even knowing it, all the while thinking we are acting out of love or concern for family welfare.
How would you know if you were going too far? What would the warning signs be?
In my personal case, I realized a couple months ago, hey, I should be able to go to bed when I feel sleepy, and I should be able to go to the grocery store or get a $12 haircut without having to have a big discussion to justify it.
My husband is a very nice person (just like Calvinist Janeway’s husband), but he got into some very bad habits, just as we all do.
I’ve had to lay down some ground rules with him, namely that we don’t have to optimize EVERYTHING. If a purchase is under $20, it’s morally neutral, and fits into the budget that we agree upon every month, I don’t think that we need to have a huge discussion about it. I am a responsible middle-aged adult and I do not need to be micromanaged. When my husband used to ask me to justify grocery trips or haircuts and my daily shower (he’s European by birth, so the American love of daily bathing doesn’t make sense to him), it made me feel about six inches high (particularly since I’m an SAHM). Women need love AND respect, and my husband was not being respectful when he did this stuff.
Fortunately, we had a series of talks about this stuff a couple months ago (about the time I found Calvinist Janeway and some other helpful sources) and he has really done much better over the last few months.
It’s a very sad thing, but any of us could be harming and humiliating our loved ones without even knowing it, all the while thinking we are acting out of love or concern for family welfare.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
We try to make this our rule: When we get into some situation, even over the objections of one of us, it is *our *problem. No “I told you so” nor any “it was your idea, it’s your problem, *you *fix it,” but “how are we going to handle this?” And no, when the “problem” is another human being, you cannot treat it as if it were an inanimate problem. When you’re dealing with a human being, the “human” is first in your minds and the “problem” is second.
P
Perian
Guest
Phew, this thread got wild. I think we’re skimming past big concepts that we can all agree on.
As the primary communicators in this discussion have said explicitly-- God’s will is our ultimate goal. It doesn’t matter what your will, my will, or anyone else’s will is if it is not aligned to God’s.
I think one thing in particular is stirring up these fears of fundamentalist misogyny and that is that the man is the “decision-maker,” by degree of his gender. We’re all talking circles around it, but the decision-maker should always be the spouse who has discerned the will of God. Everyone here has said that, in more or less words. And I know that Bannan is not arguing that a man is to be followed, even when his leadership leads to sin, as he has already said that he doesn’t believe that to be true. However, in all these extreme examples that are being thrown around, we’re losing sight of the real life ways in which leadership fluidly changes hands in all the decision making of a family.
To use very common and subtle examples-- if a man is in a state of spiritual desolation, bleary-eyed from the burden God has given him this day, and he is fighting the evil spirits who confuse his thoughts and misdirect his emotions, he may not be the instrument through whom God is speaking in that moment.
To give a real-life example, my husband completed a dual-degree program (MBA and JD) in three years. It was an absolute nightmare. But, God called, and we answered. As often happens, though, we were left with a lot of healing to do after three years of incredible emotional, intellectual, and spiritual strain. My husband was deep in a spiritual battle against evil spirits that wanted to take advantage of his vulnerable position. When it came time to make decisions, we discussed everything calmly and logically. (Thankfully, we’ve already conceded that he didn’t have to curb my feminine hysteria to facilitate these conversations.
More often than not, he was the one with wild thoughts and emotions during this hard time.) If I felt that his discernment was being clouded by vices that had arisen during those three years, I explained to him why I believed we should choose differently-- whatever it was-- and took great care to listen for God’s call while my husband’s ears were closed to it.
It was my duty, in those moments, to be the servant and lead him where I believed God wanted us BOTH. And, when I am weak, broken, hurting, blaming God, letting my vices take over my virtues, my husband leads me back to peace. God, in his great mercy, never lets us fall into these moments at the same time without giving one or both of us the grace to get back out of it again.
Marriage is a vocation that binds us to another person on our journey toward Heaven. And, here’s where I’m trying to make my point. In ideal circumstances, the weight of that yoke will be pulled so equally that you don’t know who is contributing what. In a good, fruitful, strong marriage, God’s will will ALWAYS be chosen as the obvious and only choice in all decision making, such that it’s indiscernible who ultimately took charge as the “decision-maker.”
So, putting that logic plainly:
God’s will is the trump card.
The will of the spouse that is aligned with God’s is the will to be followed.
If that happens to be the husband’s, the wife will “submit” for the good of the family.
If that happens to be the wife’s, the husband will “submit” for the good of the family.
But, if proper humility is observed by BOTH the one “submitting,” and the one who is asking for trust and authority, and good communication has been practiced, it just shouldn’t do any harm to know that equilibrium was lost in order to be regained.
Does that help? It’s the unspoken equality that exists in my beautiful marriage. I can feel my strength radiate in our relationship because the state of our life together reflects the co-leadership we have undertaken together. It’s incredibly empowering. And, to end on a light note, I often say that the man-hating segment of feminists have no appeal for me. My husband wouldn’t wear clean underwear under his lawyer’s suit if it weren’t for me. I don’t have to be told I’m the boss around here… I already know
That’s a lie, baby girl is the boss. Anyway, I hope that helped. God bless.
As the primary communicators in this discussion have said explicitly-- God’s will is our ultimate goal. It doesn’t matter what your will, my will, or anyone else’s will is if it is not aligned to God’s.
I think one thing in particular is stirring up these fears of fundamentalist misogyny and that is that the man is the “decision-maker,” by degree of his gender. We’re all talking circles around it, but the decision-maker should always be the spouse who has discerned the will of God. Everyone here has said that, in more or less words. And I know that Bannan is not arguing that a man is to be followed, even when his leadership leads to sin, as he has already said that he doesn’t believe that to be true. However, in all these extreme examples that are being thrown around, we’re losing sight of the real life ways in which leadership fluidly changes hands in all the decision making of a family.
To use very common and subtle examples-- if a man is in a state of spiritual desolation, bleary-eyed from the burden God has given him this day, and he is fighting the evil spirits who confuse his thoughts and misdirect his emotions, he may not be the instrument through whom God is speaking in that moment.
To give a real-life example, my husband completed a dual-degree program (MBA and JD) in three years. It was an absolute nightmare. But, God called, and we answered. As often happens, though, we were left with a lot of healing to do after three years of incredible emotional, intellectual, and spiritual strain. My husband was deep in a spiritual battle against evil spirits that wanted to take advantage of his vulnerable position. When it came time to make decisions, we discussed everything calmly and logically. (Thankfully, we’ve already conceded that he didn’t have to curb my feminine hysteria to facilitate these conversations.
More often than not, he was the one with wild thoughts and emotions during this hard time.) If I felt that his discernment was being clouded by vices that had arisen during those three years, I explained to him why I believed we should choose differently-- whatever it was-- and took great care to listen for God’s call while my husband’s ears were closed to it.It was my duty, in those moments, to be the servant and lead him where I believed God wanted us BOTH. And, when I am weak, broken, hurting, blaming God, letting my vices take over my virtues, my husband leads me back to peace. God, in his great mercy, never lets us fall into these moments at the same time without giving one or both of us the grace to get back out of it again.
Marriage is a vocation that binds us to another person on our journey toward Heaven. And, here’s where I’m trying to make my point. In ideal circumstances, the weight of that yoke will be pulled so equally that you don’t know who is contributing what. In a good, fruitful, strong marriage, God’s will will ALWAYS be chosen as the obvious and only choice in all decision making, such that it’s indiscernible who ultimately took charge as the “decision-maker.”
So, putting that logic plainly:
God’s will is the trump card.
The will of the spouse that is aligned with God’s is the will to be followed.
If that happens to be the husband’s, the wife will “submit” for the good of the family.
If that happens to be the wife’s, the husband will “submit” for the good of the family.
But, if proper humility is observed by BOTH the one “submitting,” and the one who is asking for trust and authority, and good communication has been practiced, it just shouldn’t do any harm to know that equilibrium was lost in order to be regained.
Does that help? It’s the unspoken equality that exists in my beautiful marriage. I can feel my strength radiate in our relationship because the state of our life together reflects the co-leadership we have undertaken together. It’s incredibly empowering. And, to end on a light note, I often say that the man-hating segment of feminists have no appeal for me. My husband wouldn’t wear clean underwear under his lawyer’s suit if it weren’t for me. I don’t have to be told I’m the boss around here… I already know
That’s a lie, baby girl is the boss. Anyway, I hope that helped. God bless.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Which verse talks about a wife making decisions independent of husband?
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
By the way, I would also add these verses regarding the wonderful qualities of a good wife:Sirach 25:8 …happy is he who lives with an intelligent wife…
Sirach 26:1-4 Happy the husband of a good wife, twice-lengthened are his days; A worthy wife brings joy to her husband, peaceful and full is his life. A good wife is a generous gift bestowed upon him who fears the Lord; Be he rich or poor, his heart is content, and a smile is ever on his face.
Sirach 26:13-16 A wife’s charm delights her husband, and her skill puts fat on his bones. A silent wife is a gift of the Lord, and there is nothing so previous as a disciplined soul. A modest wife adds charm to charm, and no balance can weigh the value of a chaste soul. Like the sun rising in the heights of the Lord, so is the beauty of a good wife in her well-ordered home.
Sirach 40:19-20, 23 Sheepfolds and orchards bring flourishing health; but better than either, a devoted wife; Wine and music delight the soul, but better than either, conjugal love…A friend, a neighbor, are timely guides, but better than either, a prudent wife.
Proverbs 31: 10-12, 26, 30 When one finds a worthy wife, her value is far beyond pearls. Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize. She brings him good, and not evil, all the days of her life. She opens her mouth in wisdom, and on her tongue is kindly counsel. Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting; the woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
Proverbs 5:18-19, 22 And have joy of the wife of your youth, your lovely hind, your graceful doe. Her love will invigorate you always, through her love you will flourish continually, When you lie down she will watch over you, and when you wake, she will share your concerns; wherever you turn, she will guide you.
Sirach 26:1-4 Happy the husband of a good wife, twice-lengthened are his days; A worthy wife brings joy to her husband, peaceful and full is his life. A good wife is a generous gift bestowed upon him who fears the Lord; Be he rich or poor, his heart is content, and a smile is ever on his face.
Sirach 26:13-16 A wife’s charm delights her husband, and her skill puts fat on his bones. A silent wife is a gift of the Lord, and there is nothing so previous as a disciplined soul. A modest wife adds charm to charm, and no balance can weigh the value of a chaste soul. Like the sun rising in the heights of the Lord, so is the beauty of a good wife in her well-ordered home.
Sirach 40:19-20, 23 Sheepfolds and orchards bring flourishing health; but better than either, a devoted wife; Wine and music delight the soul, but better than either, conjugal love…A friend, a neighbor, are timely guides, but better than either, a prudent wife.
Proverbs 31: 10-12, 26, 30 When one finds a worthy wife, her value is far beyond pearls. Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize. She brings him good, and not evil, all the days of her life. She opens her mouth in wisdom, and on her tongue is kindly counsel. Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting; the woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
Proverbs 5:18-19, 22 And have joy of the wife of your youth, your lovely hind, your graceful doe. Her love will invigorate you always, through her love you will flourish continually, When you lie down she will watch over you, and when you wake, she will share your concerns; wherever you turn, she will guide you.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
I think it’s worth pasting an excerpt from a blog post I did last year on Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Arcanum. Pope Leo goes on to quote the 4th/5th century’s St. Jerome:
on Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Arcanum. Pope Leo goes on to quote the 4th/5th century’s St. Jerome:[A] law of marriage just to all, and the same for all, was enacted by the abolition of the old distinction between slaves and free-born men and women; 'and thus the rights of husbands and wives were made equal: for, as St. Jerome says, “with us that which is unlawful for women is unlawful for men also, and the same restraint is imposed on equal conditions.” The self-same rights also were firmly established for reciprocal affection and for the interchange of duties. (14)
This is, of course, not to belittle the parts of Scripture exhorting the husband to a theological headship of the family. Pope Leo does speak of the husband as “chief of the family and the head of the wife.” The pendulum should not swing too far and reach a point of some modern feminists who believe gender equality means some dilution of gifts between men and women. As Catholic blogger and author Melinda Selmys wrote in a 3-part essay: “Perhaps the greatest mistake of mainstream feminism is the assumption that difference equals inequality. … while God has created us as equals, we reflect his image in different ways.”
The purview of Pope Leo’s encyclical, as we have seen, emphasizes the contributions of husband and wife as analogous to Christ and the Church. Such theology has been since developed, keeping with Pope Leo all the way back to St. Paul. For example, Pope Pius XI spoke of the husband as “head” and wife as “heart,” and if the husband should fail in his leadership duties, the wife must assume responsibility of “directing the family” (Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii, 27-28, December 31, 1930). In Bl. Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, he emphasized a certain responsibility of husbands relative to Christ and the Church: “The love of Christ for the Church has essentially her sanctification as its scope.” (Theology of the Body, St Paul’s Analogy of Union of Head and Body Does Not Destroy Individuality of the Person, 6, August 25, 1982) The following week, he spoke of the husband’s emphasis to love. When he speaks of the bride’s “submission,” he refers to the bride submitting to this love, to “experience” this love. (Theology of the Body, Sacredness of Human Body and Marriage, 6, September 1, 1982).
This is, of course, not to belittle the parts of Scripture exhorting the husband to a theological headship of the family. Pope Leo does speak of the husband as “chief of the family and the head of the wife.” The pendulum should not swing too far and reach a point of some modern feminists who believe gender equality means some dilution of gifts between men and women. As Catholic blogger and author Melinda Selmys wrote in a 3-part essay: “Perhaps the greatest mistake of mainstream feminism is the assumption that difference equals inequality. … while God has created us as equals, we reflect his image in different ways.”
The purview of Pope Leo’s encyclical, as we have seen, emphasizes the contributions of husband and wife as analogous to Christ and the Church. Such theology has been since developed, keeping with Pope Leo all the way back to St. Paul. For example, Pope Pius XI spoke of the husband as “head” and wife as “heart,” and if the husband should fail in his leadership duties, the wife must assume responsibility of “directing the family” (Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii, 27-28, December 31, 1930). In Bl. Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, he emphasized a certain responsibility of husbands relative to Christ and the Church: “The love of Christ for the Church has essentially her sanctification as its scope.” (Theology of the Body, St Paul’s Analogy of Union of Head and Body Does Not Destroy Individuality of the Person, 6, August 25, 1982) The following week, he spoke of the husband’s emphasis to love. When he speaks of the bride’s “submission,” he refers to the bride submitting to this love, to “experience” this love. (Theology of the Body, Sacredness of Human Body and Marriage, 6, September 1, 1982).
B
Bannan
Guest
And there I was thinking I was ready to throw in the towel on this conversation.
Do you stay up to show him you love him? Would you just be enabling him to further ignore your needs? After all some of your responsibility in creating a peaceful home requires you to try and get him to understand you and respect you. Does God want you to stay up and lose more sleep? The line here is hard to find, and I’m not saying you did the right thing or the wrong thing. In your situation that evening there may not have even been a right or wrong answer. Your decision to stay up and honor your husband honors yourself even more because you did that for him even when he was oblivious of your need to rest, but if you stay up and snap at him in the morning because you didn’t get enough sleep, then who knows, maybe it would have been better to tell him to shove off on the way to slumber.
It’s obvious that at the core of your being, in your subliminal thought, you wanted to submit to your husband. I can see that because you tried staying up late, just for him, even when he idiotically didn’t catch the “I’m tired” signals you sent. You did this for him, despite him. And I’m certain he does similar things at times for you.
In either case, I don’t think this example is a good example for what I was trying to speak to when I spoke about the husbands authority in the home. Your example shows a marriage that is functioning well inside what I’ll call the grey area of rights and wrongs. Its a beautiful thing because what you do in any situation is unique, personal, and while some actions may be better than others, the worse actions sometimes are still good actions on the whole. I feel that the authority of the husband, in your example, is something that can be safely ignored without any severe repercussions.
Something that may make a better example of what I’m talking about. Suppose the husband comes to the conclusion that the family must move, knowing full well that the wife will not like doing so. Suppose he believes that the family needs this for their spiritual well being. The wife disagrees with this conclusion, but has no compelling argument against moving, even after receiving counsel from the families trusted friends or counselors. He receives counsel at her request from his own trusted friends and counselors, and still is convinced its the right thing to do. I feel it is in this situation were a husbands authority might need to be recognized.
I used the word “might” though because even in this situation it’s never a sure thing. The woman should also examine the situation from her conscience and especially if children are involved. Sometimes, even if the woman can’t put words as to the “why” the family must not fill the husbands demands, she may still be right. God is above the husband. I think of the authority as something of a safety mechanism. When all else fails, trust the husband.
I want us all to acknowledge that while God always has had the trump card, he entrusted unique trump cards to us fallible humans as well. Husbands have a trump card in stewarding the family in Christ, Wives have a trump card over the children in exactly the same way the father has (through him), and wives also have a trump card with the husband in that she must be first in his mind, before even himself.
I’m asking for this because I feel that to ignore the true economy God envisioned for our families will cause more damage, than accidental damage caused by ignoring something so beautifully bestowed on us by our creator as authority. Jesus had the authority of the Father, by virtue of being who he was. The Church was given the full authority by Jesus to carry on the deposit of faith. It’s easy in this context to draw the comparison, the Husband has authority by virtue of who he is (for God bestowed on him that authority in marriage). Then, the Husband gives his full authority to the Wife, so that they may carry on his deposit of faith together. I feel the only place where this comparison ends is that we will all feel that Jesus is more than the Church, but then again, we know he didn’t feel that way because he gave his life for us. It was Jesus who said we were worthy of him, even when we disagreed. Thank God we defaulted to believing our Husband in this matter, or all of our lives would be an aimless wandering, and our eternities a sour existence.
In your example there are a million different things that go through your mind when your making the decision to submit to your husband or not.
Do you stay up to show him you love him? Would you just be enabling him to further ignore your needs? After all some of your responsibility in creating a peaceful home requires you to try and get him to understand you and respect you. Does God want you to stay up and lose more sleep? The line here is hard to find, and I’m not saying you did the right thing or the wrong thing. In your situation that evening there may not have even been a right or wrong answer. Your decision to stay up and honor your husband honors yourself even more because you did that for him even when he was oblivious of your need to rest, but if you stay up and snap at him in the morning because you didn’t get enough sleep, then who knows, maybe it would have been better to tell him to shove off on the way to slumber.
It’s obvious that at the core of your being, in your subliminal thought, you wanted to submit to your husband. I can see that because you tried staying up late, just for him, even when he idiotically didn’t catch the “I’m tired” signals you sent. You did this for him, despite him. And I’m certain he does similar things at times for you.
In either case, I don’t think this example is a good example for what I was trying to speak to when I spoke about the husbands authority in the home. Your example shows a marriage that is functioning well inside what I’ll call the grey area of rights and wrongs. Its a beautiful thing because what you do in any situation is unique, personal, and while some actions may be better than others, the worse actions sometimes are still good actions on the whole. I feel that the authority of the husband, in your example, is something that can be safely ignored without any severe repercussions.
Something that may make a better example of what I’m talking about. Suppose the husband comes to the conclusion that the family must move, knowing full well that the wife will not like doing so. Suppose he believes that the family needs this for their spiritual well being. The wife disagrees with this conclusion, but has no compelling argument against moving, even after receiving counsel from the families trusted friends or counselors. He receives counsel at her request from his own trusted friends and counselors, and still is convinced its the right thing to do. I feel it is in this situation were a husbands authority might need to be recognized.
I used the word “might” though because even in this situation it’s never a sure thing. The woman should also examine the situation from her conscience and especially if children are involved. Sometimes, even if the woman can’t put words as to the “why” the family must not fill the husbands demands, she may still be right. God is above the husband. I think of the authority as something of a safety mechanism. When all else fails, trust the husband.
Hah! Sure, that’s why I’m the only guy on the last few pages advocating this! On a more serious tone though, I’d hardly call a wife submitting to a cruel husband glorious. Maybe the wife is glorious, but the situation is downright ugly. On the same note, I wouldn’t call a man continuing to love a harlot wife glorious, though perhaps his actions would be.
Oh I know what I’m asking for and I also understand how easily things can go wrong. Women who submit to the husband in lieu of God can get a lot of things wrong really fast, especially if the husband isn’t faithful to her or to God. But that’s why I’m still here talking to you all, so that we can overcome the communication barriers and get to the core of our differences.
I want us all to acknowledge that while God always has had the trump card, he entrusted unique trump cards to us fallible humans as well. Husbands have a trump card in stewarding the family in Christ, Wives have a trump card over the children in exactly the same way the father has (through him), and wives also have a trump card with the husband in that she must be first in his mind, before even himself.
I’m asking for this because I feel that to ignore the true economy God envisioned for our families will cause more damage, than accidental damage caused by ignoring something so beautifully bestowed on us by our creator as authority. Jesus had the authority of the Father, by virtue of being who he was. The Church was given the full authority by Jesus to carry on the deposit of faith. It’s easy in this context to draw the comparison, the Husband has authority by virtue of who he is (for God bestowed on him that authority in marriage). Then, the Husband gives his full authority to the Wife, so that they may carry on his deposit of faith together. I feel the only place where this comparison ends is that we will all feel that Jesus is more than the Church, but then again, we know he didn’t feel that way because he gave his life for us. It was Jesus who said we were worthy of him, even when we disagreed. Thank God we defaulted to believing our Husband in this matter, or all of our lives would be an aimless wandering, and our eternities a sour existence.
B
Bannan
Guest
A quick clarification, it’s late and I didn’t speak carefully enough.
The comparison I was using didn’t end where we all feel that Jesus is more than the Church, I just did not want to proposition that we all feel husbands were more than the wife and children.
I don’t feel that way, and I know you don’t either because the last few pages you’ve reiterated that pretty clearly!
The comparison I was using didn’t end where we all feel that Jesus is more than the Church, I just did not want to proposition that we all feel husbands were more than the wife and children.
I don’t feel that way, and I know you don’t either because the last few pages you’ve reiterated that pretty clearly!
B
Boccherini
Guest
Personally I think so many women have problems being self assertive enough that telling them that they should let their husbands lead them is just pernicious.
A minor example would be this Calvinist Janeway blogger - I mean she won’t buy the kind of apples she wants because she imagines this is what her husband wants? Notice this was mostly in her own head.
A minor example would be this Calvinist Janeway blogger - I mean she won’t buy the kind of apples she wants because she imagines this is what her husband wants? Notice this was mostly in her own head.
X
Xantippe
Guest
X
Xantippe
Guest
The whole thing, pretty much.
The picture painted is that the Proverbs 31 wife is so omni-competent that her husband is able to just go shoot the breeze with his friends all day and not worry about the home businesses or his wife’s financial dealings.
I find that kind of extreme, actually, but you’ll look the whole chapter over three times without seeing any talk of her consulting her husband about anything. (I favor a fairly collaborative high-communication approach when large amounts of money are involved, more or less what Dave Ramsey the personal finance guy recommends.)
B
Book_Worm
Guest
Let’s flip the move situation around. Suppose it’s the wife who thinks the family should move. Suppose SHE consults with her spiritual advisors, and they all reach the conclusion that the move would be the best thing for the family. But now it’s the husband who doesn’t want to make the move without a compelling good reason for his opinion.
Does the wife need to submit to the husband’s authority?
Or are men never illogical, impractical, or wrong?
Does the wife need to submit to the husband’s authority?
Or are men never illogical, impractical, or wrong?
M
MaryT777
Guest
Interesting thread!~ Great question.
Mary.
P
petitfleur
Guest
Didn't you read the above post about a quiet wife being a blessing or something like that? You should not ask questions that require logic and critical thinking because it is unfeminine.
X
Xantippe
Guest
In the case of the apples, it sounds like he really did tell her not to buy Red Delicious (although he probably didn’t understand that she LOVED Red Delicious and that he was depriving her).
“–You don’t think I should buy red delicious apples? I really like them. Oh—you don’t. Ok…”
It’s true that some of the abuses might indeed be in the wife’s head, but the problem is that a conscientious wife who was determined to be submissive might indeed keep the struggles in her head rather than saying something like, “I love Red Delicious apples, honey, and I am going to buy enough for me to eat. I will buy the kind that you like for you.” A wife who was trying to be submissive might find that fairly mild speech “rebellious” (to use the yucky fundamentalist Protestant terminology).
I also think that people can be misled by the appearance of overtly submissive relationships. It can look good from the outside, right up until the day it all goes kablooey, and a surprising number of those marriages do eventually go kablooey. It’s dangerous to create a marriage with no safety valve.
Here is a different post from Calvinist Janeway on a previous blog, where she talks about the dangers of not communicating clearly with one’s spouse:
taylorjoyrecovers.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/quiverfullspeechcrashesairplanes/
She compares the fundamentalist Protestant encouragement of wives’ using “mitigated speech” with the mitigated speech used by copilots to pilots in describing dangerous conditions that led to major air disasters. It may sound like a stretch, but it’s an interesting example.
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Sarcelle
Guest
I thought spouses, no matter the sex, should not make unilateral decisions without discussing it with their other half first especially potentially life changing decisions.
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Sarcelle
Guest
A coworker was just talking to me about how his wife decided to honor him as the head of the family. They are both devout Baptists. His wife would consult him on everything from what to make for dinner to whether to fill the car up with gas. Every little day to day decision she would ask him for his (name removed by moderator)ut or his permission. She would even ask him for permission to go out grocery shopping. Finally after a week of this he told her that she had the wrong idea of headship. Husbands are to lead their family to God and are in no way expected to act like micro- managers.
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