Wife won't let husband be spritual leader of house?

[MarcoPolo]

Which verse talks about a wife making decisions independent of husband?

The whole thing, pretty much. … without seeing any talk of her consulting her husband about anything.

Your answer tells me you are inferring that the woman of Prov. 31 makes decisions independent of her husband based on a negative proof — despite that much of what is described about her relates to her value to her husband. I think it’s more prudent to accept that all Scripture typically relates the spouses to each other, as evidenced in Sirach and Proverbs (which I cited above) or from Jesus and Paul. The idea of “independent decision making” sounds like chic modern feminism imposed on to the text. Neither spouse goes around sovereign - they become one.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I thought spouses, no matter the sex, should not make unilateral decisions without discussing it with their other half first especially potentially life changing decisions.

Agreed, as I posted immediately above.

 

[agapewolf]

I think this might be helpful to the conversation…

I am in serious “dating” (courting, whatever you want to call it) discernment with a truly Catholic prayerful man.

We had a conversation about what a timeline might look like, especially because of my work-- seasonal (church musician) and I play weddings. I told him the different issues that may come up with timing. I don’t want to rush, yet I’m not as young anymore, so time is an issue. The next day, I came back to him after prayer that gave me a lot of peace and faith in God’s timing. I told him that-- if I really want a spiritual head of the household, I need to trust in that. So, I told him we both keep praying for the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and I’ll walk beside him and let him lead.

His reaction: “wow-- well, with you following, I better be right. Gotta pray more”

THIS is how its supposed to work. The husband knowing he has souls to guard and lead, should be motivated to pray, be surrendered to God without agenda, and work hard for his family so they get to heaven. My “submission” to him reminded him of that and motivated him.

 

[Xantippe]

Your answer tells me you are inferring that the woman of Prov. 31 makes decisions independent of her husband based on a negative proof — despite that much of what is described about her relates to her value to her husband. I think it’s more prudent to accept that all Scripture typically relates the spouses to each other, as evidenced in Sirach and Proverbs (which I cited above) or from Jesus and Paul. The idea of “independent decision making” sounds like chic modern feminism imposed on to the text. Neither spouse goes around sovereign - they become one.

I also think that in practice, there should be a higher level of collaboration where there is a lot at stake, but nonetheless, there isn’t a word about that sort of collaboration in Proverbs 31. The only time we see the Proverbs 31 woman’s husband is in the following verses:

"10A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

So so far, he’s just passively enjoying all the goodies she provides him.

13Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

As I said upthread, he’s hanging out at the Old Testament answer to the VFW hall or the country club or the Rotary. I take it he’s mostly retired and she is an energetic middle-aged lady with children who are almost grown.

Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”

You can read through that over and over again and not find him telling her how to do anything, which is interesting, given the breadth of her enterprises: managing a house full of servants and growing children, spinning and weaving, real estate investing and running a vineyard, trade, charity, etc. I take it that the Proverbs 31 woman is more or less the equivalent of an upper-middle class or upper-upper middle class professional in our day.

My reading is that her giving her husband the freedom to not worry about what she’s up to and to not be involved in her businesses is viewed as one of her great virtues. She takes care of it all, spares him the headaches, and he is able to devote himself to his interests.

I believe that Proverbs 31 is probably the most detailed depiction in the entire Bible of what a virtuous well-off woman of the time was expected to do with her time. You will not find any single description nearly so detailed in St. Paul or in the Gospels, just little bits and pieces.

 

[MarcoPolo]

there isn’t a word about that sort of collaboration in Proverbs 31. … read through that over and over again and not find him telling her how to do anything

I just addressed this negative proof claim. It’s a fallacy of argument. No need to repeat my same answer about other passages in Proverbs, Sirach, or from Paul and Jesus, all which talk about spousal unity and debunk the idea of the wife making “independent decisions” from her spouse. You can read the text over and over again and not find that claim if you want to insist on the negative proof rule.

But the text relates her to her spouse and children multiple times. There is no need to impose a void on the family into this text, certainly not for the sake of modern feminist thought.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I think this might be helpful to the conversation…

I am in serious “dating” (courting, whatever you want to call it) discernment with a truly Catholic prayerful man.

We had a conversation about what a timeline might look like, especially because of my work-- seasonal (church musician) and I play weddings. I told him the different issues that may come up with timing. I don’t want to rush, yet I’m not as young anymore, so time is an issue. The next day, I came back to him after prayer that gave me a lot of peace and faith in God’s timing. I told him that-- if I really want a spiritual head of the household, I need to trust in that. So, I told him we both keep praying for the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and I’ll walk beside him and let him lead.

His reaction: “wow-- well, with you following, I better be right. Gotta pray more”

THIS is how its supposed to work. The husband knowing he has souls to guard and lead, should be motivated to pray, be surrendered to God without agenda, and work hard for his family so they get to heaven. My “submission” to him reminded him of that and motivated him.

Good conversation you had.

 

[Walking_Home]

I also think that in practice, there should be a higher level of collaboration where there is a lot at stake, but nonetheless, there isn’t a word about that sort of collaboration in Proverbs 31. The only time we see the Proverbs 31 woman’s husband is in the following verses:

"10A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

So so far, he’s just passively enjoying all the goodies she provides him.

13Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

As I said upthread, he’s hanging out at the Old Testament answer to the VFW hall or the country club or the Rotary. I take it he’s mostly retired and she is an energetic middle-aged lady with children who are almost grown.

Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”

You can read through that over and over again and not find him telling her how to do anything, which is interesting, given the breadth of her enterprises: managing a house full of servants and growing children, spinning and weaving, real estate investing and running a vineyard, trade, charity, etc. I take it that the Proverbs 31 woman is more or less the equivalent of an upper-middle class or upper-upper middle class professional in our day.

My reading is that her giving her husband the freedom to not worry about what she’s up to and to not be involved in her businesses is viewed as one of her great virtues. She takes care of it all, spares him the headaches, and he is able to devote himself to his interests.

I believe that Proverbs 31 is probably the most detailed depiction in the entire Bible of what a virtuous well-off woman of the time was expected to do with her time. You will not find any single description nearly so detailed in St. Paul or in the Gospels, just little bits and pieces.

---

Yes – again agree.

 

[Walking_Home]

LongingSoul:

But so is ‘rights’ a most abused concept. If something is abused by some, does that mean that it should be abandoned

Of course not,** mutual submission is important in marriage**.

---

Yes - since mutual submission is the teaching of the Church.

 

[Perian]

Phew, this thread got wild. I think we’re skimming past big concepts that we can all agree on.

As the primary communicators in this discussion have said explicitly-- God’s will is our ultimate goal. It doesn’t matter what your will, my will, or anyone else’s will is if it is not aligned to God’s.

I think one thing in particular is stirring up these fears of fundamentalist misogyny and that is that the man is the “decision-maker,” by degree of his gender. We’re all talking circles around it, but the decision-maker should always be the spouse who has discerned the will of God. Everyone here has said that, in more or less words. And I know that Bannan is not arguing that a man is to be followed, even when his leadership leads to sin, as he has already said that he doesn’t believe that to be true. However, in all these extreme examples that are being thrown around, we’re losing sight of the real life ways in which leadership fluidly changes hands in all the decision making of a family.

To use very common and subtle examples-- if a man is in a state of spiritual desolation, bleary-eyed from the burden God has given him this day, and he is fighting the evil spirits who confuse his thoughts and misdirect his emotions, he may not be the instrument through whom God is speaking in that moment.

To give a real-life example, my husband completed a dual-degree program (MBA and JD) in three years. It was an absolute nightmare. But, God called, and we answered. As often happens, though, we were left with a lot of healing to do after three years of incredible emotional, intellectual, and spiritual strain. My husband was deep in a spiritual battle against evil spirits that wanted to take advantage of his vulnerable position. When it came time to make decisions, we discussed everything calmly and logically. (Thankfully, we’ve already conceded that he didn’t have to curb my feminine hysteria to facilitate these conversations. More often than not, he was the one with wild thoughts and emotions during this hard time.) If I felt that his discernment was being clouded by vices that had arisen during those three years, I explained to him why I believed we should choose differently-- whatever it was-- and took great care to listen for God’s call while my husband’s ears were closed to it.

It was my duty, in those moments, to be the servant and lead him where I believed God wanted us BOTH. And, when I am weak, broken, hurting, blaming God, letting my vices take over my virtues, my husband leads me back to peace. God, in his great mercy, never lets us fall into these moments at the same time without giving one or both of us the grace to get back out of it again.

Marriage is a vocation that binds us to another person on our journey toward Heaven. And, here’s where I’m trying to make my point. In ideal circumstances, the weight of that yoke will be pulled so equally that you don’t know who is contributing what. In a good, fruitful, strong marriage, God’s will will ALWAYS be chosen as the obvious and only choice in all decision making, such that it’s indiscernible who ultimately took charge as the “decision-maker.”

So, putting that logic plainly:
God’s will is the trump card.
The will of the spouse that is aligned with God’s is the will to be followed.
If that happens to be the husband’s, the wife will “submit” for the good of the family.
If that happens to be the wife’s, the husband will “submit” for the good of the family.
But, if proper humility is observed by BOTH the one “submitting,” and the one who is asking for trust and authority, and good communication has been practiced, it just shouldn’t do any harm to know that equilibrium was lost in order to be regained.

Does that help? It’s the unspoken equality that exists in my beautiful marriage. I can feel my strength radiate in our relationship because the state of our life together reflects the co-leadership we have undertaken together. It’s incredibly empowering. And, to end on a light note, I often say that the man-hating segment of feminists have no appeal for me. My husband wouldn’t wear clean underwear under his lawyer’s suit if it weren’t for me. I don’t have to be told I’m the boss around here… I already know

That’s a lie, baby girl is the boss. Anyway, I hope that helped. God bless.

Sorry to repost, but I think this slipped through the cracks because I posted at a weird time. Just looking to join the conversation.

 

[Boccherini]

I also think that in practice, there should be a higher level of collaboration where there is a lot at stake, but nonetheless, there isn’t a word about that sort of collaboration in Proverbs 31. The only time we see the Proverbs 31 woman’s husband is in the following verses:

"10A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

So so far, he’s just passively enjoying all the goodies she provides him.

13Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

Actually it sounds as though she does all the work but he still has all the power, which is the way things work in many third world countries. Women do a majority of the labour, especially the dirty work, but men still own all the property and power.

 

[Xantippe]

Actually it sounds as though she does all the work but he still has all the power, which is the way things work in many third world countries. Women do a majority of the labour, especially the dirty work, but men still own all the property and power.

Although that is true in a lot of places, that doesn’t fit with the fact that she does a lot of business on her own account and buys land. She couldn’t be buying land if she didn’t have the money and the authority to buy land.

With regard to power, the fact that “Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land” does suggest that her husband is kind of a big deal within the local politics of the time. Presumably, he would be something like a city councilman in our day.

 

[petitfleur]

So did the countless multitude of women before you. I took time here because its easy to look at someone like the OP with a huge side eye. In doing so you’ve cast judgement on him. I won’t pretend to say that you are wrong in your judgment, I don’t know. But I also don’t have full certainty that you are right.

I took the time here because on this particular thread, most of the women I read were dismissive of his suggestion that husbands even have the role of spiritual leadership. Perhaps his perspective of spiritual leadership was off, maybe even way off, but denying outright that it exists at all is not going to help shape his marriage into what God desires. I felt what he needed was a clarification of what it was to be a spiritual leader. At best, denying that the husband has a role to play in the family that is unique is just likely to get ignored by the OP.

It was in response to that huge side eye I that I interjected myself onto this forum. Sure, women get undue focus all the time. Here’s what you women do wrong, here’s what you should do, that kind of talk. But your kidding yourselves if you think it is one sided. It may be that in your personal circles of life, when you women call us men out for being unloving, we just know you are right immediately and don’t drag the conversation out resisting your arguments. It may be possible that the conversation is concluded so quickly that sure, it seems like all we ever talk about is what the woman does wrong.

You may have a perception that all anyone ever talks about is what the woman should do. I would suggest that you can’t conclude it’s men’s fault for this perception, either.

Op is not the person I was looking at with a side eye
He jumped ship and never responded. I did go an look at his previous posts though and they proved my main point which was, if this is even an issue there are bigger problems than your wife not being submissive, and perhaps there is a reason she does not accept him as spiritual leader.
I know some marriages where the wife is the get it done domineering one from the outside anyway. It does not mean that the father is not a leader he is just more quiet about it. We don’t know how things operate behind closed doors in other peoples relationships.

There are people OBSESSED with this topic and write entire blogs on the subject. when I read them I realize these people are really sick and twisted and manipulative and submission is the least of their problems.

 

[LightBound]

:clapping:

 

[LightBound]

There are people OBSESSED with this topic and write entire blogs on the subject. when I read them I realize these people are really sick and twisted and manipulative and submission is the least of their problems.

:clapping:

 

[petitfleur]

I also think it’s important to mention I don’t have a problem with a man being a spiritual leader in a household if it has been agreed apon by both spouses, and there is mutual respect for the well being of each other. And of course the wife is not forced to accept or do things she flat out doesn’t want to do…like say move. I do however have massive problems with a man waking up one day after being married for a while and deciding suddenly they are the leader of the house because the bible sais so.

 

[AnnArbor]

I’m getting used to your extreme responses, Xantippe. I know your not actually serious about giving your daughter’s doter the door just because he might mention something about spiritual leadership in his future household. You’d boot him though if you felt he were in any way planning to domineer your daughter, and that’s a good thing.

I know that in our household, my husband and I taught both of our children – but especially our daughter – that the leadership in our family was completely equal and shared.
We told our daughter from a young age that if a boyfriend/suitor started talking about headship or submission ( other than mutual) that she should firmly and clearly disabuse him of that notion. Luckily, she is dating a wonderful young man who is lovely, respectful and absolutely ready to be her partner.

 

[petitfleur]

So did the countless multitude of women before you. I took time here because its easy to look at someone like the OP with a huge side eye. In doing so you’ve cast judgement on him. I won’t pretend to say that you are wrong in your judgment, I don’t know. But I also don’t have full certainty that you are right.

I took the time here because on this particular thread, most of the women I read were dismissive of his suggestion that husbands even have the role of spiritual leadership. Perhaps his perspective of spiritual leadership was off, maybe even way off, but denying outright that it exists at all is not going to help shape his marriage into what God desires. I felt what he needed was a clarification of what it was to be a spiritual leader. At best, denying that the husband has a role to play in the family that is unique is just likely to get ignored by the OP.

It was in response to that huge side eye I that I interjected myself onto this forum. Sure, women get undue focus all the time. Here’s what you women do wrong, here’s what you should do, that kind of talk. But your kidding yourselves if you think it is one sided. It may be that in your personal circles of life, when you women call us men out for being unloving, we just know you are right immediately and don’t drag the conversation out resisting your arguments. It may be possible that the conversation is concluded so quickly that sure, it seems like all we ever talk about is what the woman does wrong.

You may have a perception that all anyone ever talks about is what the woman should do. I would suggest that you can’t conclude it’s men’s fault for this perception, either.

I feel people responding to the man deciding he had leadership, and is not a mutual agreement. In my house my husband has authority is the leader unless I decide differently.

It again goes back to the point that the problem is not up to who has authority over the other. It always has to be agreed apon and there needs to be a history of love and respect for it to work. So submission is a nonissue.

 

[Bannan]

Sailor28 - on page 7, post #104 I provided an example of how I perceived my headship coming into play in my own personal marriage within the last week. I think agapewolf, #163 provided another good example of a husbands leadership role. I can speak to some more personal examples if you want those, or maybe we just need more dialog? I’m not sure, you pick

Walking_Home, mutual submission is never something to be ignored, but its also risky to ignore how the man and woman are supposed to submit to each other.

petitfleur,
Oh I know you took the time personally out of your busy day to give me the “huge side eye”. You also do this to the OP, if you haven’t realized it you should. You have judged me because of what you’ve read on this forum. You think I’m some misogynist pig by what you’ve read. You’re reading this in the context of an extreme background of femenism. Everything I type looks this way because it is in deep contrast to these femenist attitudes.

Earlier in the thread, most of these women were saying that the man and woman were entirely equal in all areas. Some even were speaking about how the husband had no authority at all and the wife was the spiritual leader. Mutual submission was being touted as an excuse to undermine the husbands leadership in it’s entirety, as if it didn’t exist at all. Now, I don’t see that being so actively voiced, and I believe it’s because I was willing to play the part of the “misogynist” man in your eyes.

I know what I sound like when I talk to a bunch of women about being a husband who is a spiritual leader, and I don’t care what you think about me personally. My goal is not to say that I’m a strong man, or a good leader, or even talk about my successes or shortcomings in raising my children. I don’t even want to defend myself. My goal is to not let you women conveniently forget your husbands authority merely because you “feel” there isn’t anything special about it.

Most of you are willing to say that mutual submission is what’s important in your marriages, as if that’s the only line we should pay attention to. As if we should read up to Eph 5:21 and no further. As if the difference between a husband and wife shouldn’t be emphasized because any deeper understanding of this will run the risk of causing more damage than good. Xantippe used the excuse that women are weak, and so we shouldn’t tell women to submit to the husbands authority because then they’ll just be unhappy until they throw out the baby with the bath water and get mad. Not only do you want men who are unwilling to even speak about those differences, but you want husbands who don’t even understand them for your children in marriage.

All the while you women try to convince me you are strong, intelligent, wise. It’s a self defeating argument. Either you women clearly have the capacity to understand the nuances of how God made us and yet still be happy, or you are too weak and us men should never talk to you about them because you are incapable of carrying the truth. We both know which one is true, and so here I am.

 

[Walking_Home]

I know that in our household, my husband and I taught both of our children – but especially our daughter – that the leadership in our family was completely equal and shared.
We told our daughter from a young age that if a boyfriend/suitor started talking about headship or submission ( other than mutual) that she should firmly and clearly disabuse him of that notion. Luckily, she is dating a wonderful young man who is lovely, respectful and absolutely ready to be her partner.

---

 

[agapewolf]

I know that in our household, my husband and I taught both of our children – but especially our daughter – that the leadership in our family was completely equal and shared.
We told our daughter from a young age that if a boyfriend/suitor started talking about headship or submission ( other than mutual) that she should firmly and clearly disabuse him of that notion. Luckily, she is dating a wonderful young man who is lovely, respectful and absolutely ready to be her partner.

How sad that a man who talks about TOB and quotes JPII and scripture isn’t suitable.