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dixieagle
Guest
This has been my experience in every parish weāve attended. I donāt know where these parishes without men are!We are about 50/50 too - large suburban Jesuit parish on the West Coast.
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D
dixieagle
Guest
Those are all very good questionsā¦and, sadly, underline how little knowledge Catholics often have of what the Church teaches, and how many donāt really care.I am not sure ā I didnāt attend the service. I want to say that it was the pastor, but I honestly donāt remember that detail and I wouldnāt know who āordainsā a deacon. Donāt ordinations come from the Bishop? All I know is that it was announced in Church and over the PA that Ms. So-and-so was newly made a deacon and would be serving in that capacity there at the Church. Everyone accepted herā¦if someone opposed, I didnāt know about it. And like I said, she was there in that capacity for a few years before I graduated. If this was āforbiddenā, how could she have served the parish in that capacity, and how could the pastor be in good standing with the his Bishop, and even still be in that position? how could the Bishop remain in his position?
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Rence
Guest
You misunderstood me: I didnāt mean that the pastor ordained the deaconess. I meant that the pastor took on this deaconess as a deacon in the parish and had her in the capacity of deacon. I said in my last post that I didnāt know who ordained her and yes, I thought ordinations came through the Bishop.
That said, wouldnāt the pastor have been in hot water with his Bishop over having a deaconess serving in the parish? No one ever got in trouble over this that I know of.
The last pastor was very liberal, too liberal for me, and I stopped going to that parish and went to a more traditional parish. However, I have to say, of all the complaints people had about this parish and the pastor, no one ever talked to me about this deaconess. My grandmother never said anything about her either, and my grandmother was very traditional.
Anyway, the fact is, we did have a deaconess at this Roman Catholic Church for a few years. Iām 500 miles away now and couldnāt tell you what is going on in that Church anymore.
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Emmit_Fitzhume
Guest
Did she ever read the Gospel Readings at Mass, since that is one of the primary duties of a Deacon in the NO Mass
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Rence
Guest
You know what Dixieagle? I admit I donāt know everything about the Church and that I came here a few months ago to try to learn more about the Church, to relearn what I lost over the years, and to basically connect with other Catholics. And I have learned a lot, and I have connected with some really great people. But I have no clue whether or not woman are allowed to be deacons. But I do see that there are women deacons, and especially in my last home parish. However, I also have to admit that the overall tone of this thread regarding women makes me not care at all. I couldnāt possibly care less today. Maybe I will tomorrow, who knows?
But this is what I do see: A few traditional Catholics on an online forum telling women to go in the back of Church where they belong and shut up, and complaining about something that was quite fine for my Bishop. Surely if this deaconess was a big bad evil thing, the Bishop would have stopped it right away. But it was allowed to continue for years. So it must have been acceptable.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Wow, Rence, just wow.
Well, seeing where you are coming from (in terms of the parishes you have been and what has gone on there) is helpful in a way for us to understand just how you could possibly have gotten such incorrect teachings.
Look, the Vatican does not micromanage. There are bishops who (and I am NOT pointing out specific bishops or in ANY way attempting to disparage them, let me make this perfectly clear) for some reason or other have either overlooked or even actively participated in not just questionable, but outright illicit and invalid practices and teachings. So your attempt to ājustifyā a procedure because, "well, if it was wrong the bishop would have stopped itā fails because that is not the way that things āworkā. Is it what should happen? Yes. Is it what does happen? No. Bishops are not infallible or impeccable, but I thank God for all of them because they have a great commission from God and they need our prayers and our respect for their role as bishops.
There are many (sadly)) examples of priests, parishes, even bishops who (often with āgood intentionsā and probably with a demeanor of great outward āgodlinessā and āloveā) have done wrong things. Sometimes this only affects a few individuals in one parish, sometimes a whole diocese, sometimes a great number of people. Whether it is just one person (such as you, Rence) who has been thus āill-servedā by the wrong actions of those who should have been leading you to God, but instead led you stray, or whether it is the āmanyā who somehow have had many examples of people doing them āwrongā, it is sad. But it is something that you must now address. That you have been taught wrongly is a shame on those who taught youābut you must not think that the rest of the Church must embrace the errors you have been taught. No, it is the other way around. . .you must reject the error you were taught and embrace the truth, and not try to pass error onto others as truth.
This whole question of your claim of a āChurch ordained femaleādeaconā is a scandal. . I do not wish to violate your privacy in any way. . .but the fact is, you have now put something very wrong out. . and claimed it right, just, and Church-sanctioned. This is very wrong. Therefore, I ask that you contact āAsk an Apologistā and ask them IF a Roman Catholic woman in the last 50 years can be ordained a deacon, **or has ever been ordained as a deacon. **If the apologists tell you that no, Catholic teaching is that no woman may be ordained as a deacon, and that IF a woman claims that she was ordained as a Catholic deacon, she is incorrect. . .would you accept that the person you knew was acting improperly in claiming to be a deacon? Would you accept that the people who taught you were acting wrongly (they may have had good intentions but that doesnāt alter the facts)? Would you accept that, in light of seeing that they had already done wrong and claimed it as ātruthā, that they might have taught wrongly otherwise, and that if you have been the victim of wrong teaching, you MUST reject it and embrace correct teaching?
Well, seeing where you are coming from (in terms of the parishes you have been and what has gone on there) is helpful in a way for us to understand just how you could possibly have gotten such incorrect teachings.
Look, the Vatican does not micromanage. There are bishops who (and I am NOT pointing out specific bishops or in ANY way attempting to disparage them, let me make this perfectly clear) for some reason or other have either overlooked or even actively participated in not just questionable, but outright illicit and invalid practices and teachings. So your attempt to ājustifyā a procedure because, "well, if it was wrong the bishop would have stopped itā fails because that is not the way that things āworkā. Is it what should happen? Yes. Is it what does happen? No. Bishops are not infallible or impeccable, but I thank God for all of them because they have a great commission from God and they need our prayers and our respect for their role as bishops.
There are many (sadly)) examples of priests, parishes, even bishops who (often with āgood intentionsā and probably with a demeanor of great outward āgodlinessā and āloveā) have done wrong things. Sometimes this only affects a few individuals in one parish, sometimes a whole diocese, sometimes a great number of people. Whether it is just one person (such as you, Rence) who has been thus āill-servedā by the wrong actions of those who should have been leading you to God, but instead led you stray, or whether it is the āmanyā who somehow have had many examples of people doing them āwrongā, it is sad. But it is something that you must now address. That you have been taught wrongly is a shame on those who taught youābut you must not think that the rest of the Church must embrace the errors you have been taught. No, it is the other way around. . .you must reject the error you were taught and embrace the truth, and not try to pass error onto others as truth.
This whole question of your claim of a āChurch ordained femaleādeaconā is a scandal. . I do not wish to violate your privacy in any way. . .but the fact is, you have now put something very wrong out. . and claimed it right, just, and Church-sanctioned. This is very wrong. Therefore, I ask that you contact āAsk an Apologistā and ask them IF a Roman Catholic woman in the last 50 years can be ordained a deacon, **or has ever been ordained as a deacon. **If the apologists tell you that no, Catholic teaching is that no woman may be ordained as a deacon, and that IF a woman claims that she was ordained as a Catholic deacon, she is incorrect. . .would you accept that the person you knew was acting improperly in claiming to be a deacon? Would you accept that the people who taught you were acting wrongly (they may have had good intentions but that doesnāt alter the facts)? Would you accept that, in light of seeing that they had already done wrong and claimed it as ātruthā, that they might have taught wrongly otherwise, and that if you have been the victim of wrong teaching, you MUST reject it and embrace correct teaching?
M
Milesius
Guest
Read this, note the difference between men and women
pewforum.org/Christian/Catholic/A-Portrait-of-American-Catholics-on-the-Eve-of-Pope-Benedicts-Visit-to-the-US-%282%29.aspx
pewforum.org/Christian/Catholic/A-Portrait-of-American-Catholics-on-the-Eve-of-Pope-Benedicts-Visit-to-the-US-%282%29.aspx
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Rence
Guest
Is this an official Church document from the Vatican or the US Bishops? What is this above and what is its source?
M
Milesius
Guest
Click on it and see.
J
Julianna
Guest
**Me tooā¦donāt let the fire and brimstone get to youā¦lesson I learned early on here at CAF. When they start paying your mortgage and your other bills, then they can tell you what to do. **
So have I, and I ignore the others.
and that, my friend is where I draw the lineā¦no one puts baby in a corner because she is female. Letās face it, some like the fishbowl living, it is comfortable when you are sitting in the dark with people agreeing on your every word. However, in the big ocean where the rest of humanity lives, works, plays and praysā¦we may agree to disagree. Altar girls are allowed, and some just canāt used to it or the Pope welcoming them āallā male and female. There is no conspiracy, no one is out to subvert the Church. Just like I donāt believe some of the more traditional CAFāers are subverting the Church to go back to the 1950āsā¦ or are theyā¦
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dixieagle
Guest
Yes, I was aware of that having been the case in the distant past.
Itās an interesting article.
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Rence
Guest
Thatās okay
When I want to read about how women are dirt under the feet of men, and belong at the feet of men, Iāll look you up
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Milesius
Guest
Well you would be disappointed given that I have never said any of those things.Thatās okay
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Rence
Guest
Well, okay then. Then apparently they are allowed.
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Emmit_Fitzhume
Guest
There is a famous ex-KGB defector named Bella Dodd (Google her) that talked about the communist subversion of The Church. She described in detail what their mission and plan was, how it was executed, and the expected results. She spoke of this 40-50 years ago and she seems like she was able to predict the future. Everything she has predicted would happen, has happened. Read this article and then tell me there is no one out to subvert The Church
inatoday.com/20030728.htm
inatoday.com/20030728.htm
There is no conspiracy, no one is out to subvert the Church. Just like I donāt believe some of the more traditional CAFāers are subverting the Church to go back to the 1950āsā¦ or are theyā¦
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Emmit_Fitzhume
Guest
Rence, did the woman ādeaconā read the Gospel readings at Mass on Sundays?
Thatās okay
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dixieagle
Guest
There is much to learn and share, and not just in the āTraditionalā forum.
I am no ātraditionalistā (read my previous posts in this and other forums) in the sense of many here. However, I do accept what the Church teaches, and am amazed and disheartened when I see evidence of individual Catholics, pastors, and, apparently, even bishops, going their own merry way.
Again, there is no such thing as a ādeaconessā in the Catholic Church, and what happened, apparently, in that parish was in no way āacceptableā. And you *should *care about it.
(There were some women referred to as deaconesses in the very early Church, but their role may have been quite different from what deacons do today.)
P
ProVobis
Guest
Thatās jumping the gun a little, I would say. We need a clear definition of ādeaconsā before we say they are allowed.
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dixieagle
Guest
Nope. That article simply discusses a role women played in the very early Church, and muses about the possibility of some type of formal role for women in the future.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
OK, I did a little research (Google and the USCCB website are my friends).
In 2003 there was a discussion between the Eastern Churches (of the Latin Rite) and the Latin rite churches, chaired by Albany Bishop Hubbard.
According to the article, there had been a practice for female ādeaconsā in the Armenian Church historically but this practice had pretty much died out (as of 2003).
Furthermore, the role of women in this was much more ālimitedā than that of the male diaconate.
In the Coptic Church they were restoring the āfemale dioconateā in three SUBORDERS: one for the role of female reader, one for subdeaconess, and one for deaconess. NONE of the three was to be permitted in service to the altar or sacerdotal service. They assisted in the baptism of women and in service to women and children.
In the Syrian churches the only role for a female deaconness is that of chanter, to sing the hymns. In other groups of that rite, "deaconnessesā were the WIVES of deacons.
It is further noted in the article that women are not currently in the Latin rite considered for the role of deacon or deaconness, and that IF there is currently not a specific answer as to if woman MAY be ordained deacons at some point, this is NOT a practice, has NOT been a practice for CENTURIES, and would take Papal sanction if indeed it was to occur.
Therefore: It seems that whatever church Rence attended, unless it was an eastern rite church and the ādeaconā was actually a ādeaconnessā with specific function according to that churchās riteāwas acting in opposition to current authentic church teaching as to women as deacons/deaconesses.
In 2003 there was a discussion between the Eastern Churches (of the Latin Rite) and the Latin rite churches, chaired by Albany Bishop Hubbard.
According to the article, there had been a practice for female ādeaconsā in the Armenian Church historically but this practice had pretty much died out (as of 2003).
Furthermore, the role of women in this was much more ālimitedā than that of the male diaconate.
In the Coptic Church they were restoring the āfemale dioconateā in three SUBORDERS: one for the role of female reader, one for subdeaconess, and one for deaconess. NONE of the three was to be permitted in service to the altar or sacerdotal service. They assisted in the baptism of women and in service to women and children.
In the Syrian churches the only role for a female deaconness is that of chanter, to sing the hymns. In other groups of that rite, "deaconnessesā were the WIVES of deacons.
It is further noted in the article that women are not currently in the Latin rite considered for the role of deacon or deaconness, and that IF there is currently not a specific answer as to if woman MAY be ordained deacons at some point, this is NOT a practice, has NOT been a practice for CENTURIES, and would take Papal sanction if indeed it was to occur.
Therefore: It seems that whatever church Rence attended, unless it was an eastern rite church and the ādeaconā was actually a ādeaconnessā with specific function according to that churchās riteāwas acting in opposition to current authentic church teaching as to women as deacons/deaconesses.
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