Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[JacktheCatholic]

Thanks Jack, but can you really in all good conscience say that someone should have their ability to receive the sacraments removed because of one post on an internet forum? That would be like me (a high school teacher) diagnosing someone with a brain tumor who wrote that they have a headache and see spots in front of their eyes! Unless we all can find it in ourselves to look at each other without being suspect of “heresy” when we disagree, what will happen to us?

Have you read my post with out presumptions or assumptions then you can tell me why you ask this question?

 

[kozlosap]

Yes, one of my biggest faults is that I do “assume” (which usually makes an *ss out of u and me). I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your post. When I read your reply to the long post that Rence wrote, it seemed to me that you were suggesting that excommunication was in order for having heretical views. Once again, I apologize. Would you please explain your post in response to Rence’s?

 

[Emmit_Fitzhume]

The proponents of women’s ordination always try create a fear and panic so that people will haphazardly support their views. I can see how it is very easy for a poorly catechized Catholic who is really uninformed on matters to allow themselves to be seduced by this brainwashing. These agitators put the fear of there not being any more priest which means no more sacraments, etc, etc. It is fear mongering and brain washing. Out of fear, the people support this asinine argument. The proponents feel if they garnish enough support. that The Church will change its mind on the subject. The hugely hilarious point of all of this is that their efforts are completely in vain, because THE CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY OR ABILITY to ordain women. It is not just something they can decide to do. No shortage of priest or any other “Impending disaster” will change that, even if The Church wanted to, it can not. IT shows how much these “Catholics” know about their own faith. These people are serpents trying destroy us from within.

Do you understand that it can never happen? How many times do you have to be told, before you take it to heart?

I have heard it said, that in years to come the Catholic Church will have to ordain women as there are so few entering the priesthood, it will become a necessity. I would like to STRESS, I have not posted this because I agree with this opinion. If women were ordained purely to increase numbers it would be a sad day. I posting to see what others have to say concerning the panic concerning numbers of young men entering the priesthood.

A priest recently said at Mass that big changes were coming in the Church because in about 5 years, every priest in Ireland will be over 50. I don’t think he was referring to the ordination of women but he did say things had reached crisis point and we need to adapt and change, as the Israelites did when exiled in Babylon and when Jerusalem was invaded in 70CE. We have also been told we will see a lot more deacons in the future.

.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yes, one of my biggest faults is that I do “assume” (which usually makes an *ss out of u and me). I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your post. When I read your reply to the long post that Rence wrote, it seemed to me that you were suggesting that excommunication was in order for having heretical views. Once again, I apologize. Would you please explain your post in response to Rence’s?

Please read:

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm#1463

And

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23

1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one’s life, with hope in God’s mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).24

1432 The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart.25 Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: "Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!"26 God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God’s love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. The human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:27

Let us fix our eyes on Christ’s blood and understand how precious it is to his Father, for, poured out for our salvation it has brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.
1433 Since Easter, the Holy Spirit has proved "the world wrong about sin,"29 i.e., proved that the world has not believed in him whom the Father has sent. But this same Spirit who brings sin to light is also the Consoler who gives the human heart grace for repentance and conversion.30

And

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm#2089

It always helps to refer to the Church that speaks for Christ.

 

[kozlosap]

The proponents of women’s ordination always try create a fear and panic so that people will haphazardly support their views. I can see how it is very easy for a poorly catechized Catholic who is really uninformed on matters to allow themselves to be seduced by this brainwashing. These agitators put the fear of there not being any more priest which means no more sacraments, etc, etc. It is fear mongering and brain washing. Out of fear, the people support this asinine argument. The proponents feel if they garnish enough support. that The Church will change its mind on the subject. The hugely hilarious point of all of this is that their efforts are completely in vain, because THE CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY OR ABILITY to ordain women. It is not just something they can decide to do. No shortage of priest or any other “Impending disaster” will change that, even if The Church wanted to, it can not. IT shows how much these “Catholics” know about their own faith. These people are serpents trying destroy us from within.

Do you understand that it can never happen? How many times do you have to be told, before you take it to heart?

Emmit - in all sincerity, I don’t think I’ve seen one post in this reallllllly long thread that advocated ordaining women. Most posters that are in favor of allowing girls to be alter servers during the NO Mass think that just because females are alter servers doesn’t mean they will want to become priests when they are adults.

 

[kozlosap]

Jack - I just wanted a paragraph or two about your “personal” reply to Rence! Yes, I have a MS degree and can read Church documents as well as the next person, I was interested in what parts of the post disturbed you most and what your specific replies would be. I would never patronize you, so please don’t patronize me. I’m trying to learn to be less reactionary when posting, please help me out! Thanks!

 

[Emmit_Fitzhume]

If you read through the posts, there are stll Catholics who think it is going to happen eventually. That type of thinking is not only wrong, it is dangerous and a scandal to those who are still learning the faith. It is their choice if they want to live outside The Communion of THe Church and even condemn themselves to hell, but when their words and actions become a scandal for others possibly corrupt their faith, we have an obligation to correct them. That is true charity. Not all this lovie dovie, lets all hold hands during the Our Father, and have friendly conversations during mass with our neighbor because we are at a social event type of charity that labels you as a jerk for actually correcting someone when they are wrong.

Emmit - in all sincerity, I don’t think I’ve seen one post in this reallllllly long thread that advocated ordaining women. Most posters that are in favor of allowing girls to be alter servers during the NO Mass think that just because females are alter servers doesn’t mean they will want to become priests when they are adults.

 

[Rence]

Which denomination/sect was your female teacher a member of? It certainly was not The Roman Catholic Church. I also find it troubling that you actually believe in women’s ordination and the possibility it could happen. Is this poster joking do they really believe the words they are typing? I sure hope the majority of Catholics don’t hold these opinions. If they do, the Church is in for a bigger struggle than I imagined.

Who needs enemies outside of The Church when there are “Catholics” inside The Church that hold such extreme views against true Catholic Dogma and Doctrine. This is very troubling

My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

As to me joking about what I said in my post, no, I’m not joking. That’s really how I feel. And yes, others in real life that I encounter either are for women priests and believe it will happen, or are not for women priests and don’t care if it happens or not. Only a handful of people staunchly opposite in where I am in real life.

But I can relate to you and your thinking that I am joking because I don’t believe at all some of the posters who posted on this thread about the strange things they say they think about women. I think they are truthful about what they really believe at all, and only mean to offend and rile up the women on this forum. Whatever floats their boat But if they’re the “practicing” Catholics that they claim they are, I’d expect them to be actually living the Faith in word and deed and work towards bringing people closer to the Church rather than making a mockery of the Church and pushing people away from Catholicism with their offensive posts. Because really, I don’t believe a word of it. Especially the ones who say they’re married…unless, of course, they’re in some kind of Master-slave, or Dominance-submission relationship with their wife. That I buy.

And I completely understand your perspective about “enemies” in the Church because I’ve met quite a few on online Catholic forums that I would regard as enemies of the Church and I’m really glad I don’t now these people in real life.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jack - I just wanted a paragraph or two about your “personal” reply to Rence! Yes, I have a MS degree and can read Church documents as well as the next person, I was interested in what parts of the post disturbed you most and what your specific replies would be. I would never patronize you, so please don’t patronize me. I’m trying to learn to be less reactionary when posting, please help me out! Thanks!

Then you are familiar with the Canon and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

“I was blind but now I see,” I saw the Gospel of John with my kids and have been reading after prayer every night to my kids. My daughter is 8 and my son is 10. My son is an altar server.

My daughter was upset the other day because my son is an altar server and she cannot be. Our church only has male altar servers. So I explained that the Altar Server has a special role next to the Priest and Deacon and that the Catholic Church would like it if Alatar Servers becames priests. I had to tell her that the Catholic Church upholds a Tradition going back to Jesus Christ Himself that only men can be Priests. She was pensive still but she understood. God Bless her heart.

John Paul II:

Dear altar servers! Yesterday you crossed St Peter’s Square in a long procession to approach the altar …
How beautiful it would be if some of you could discover a vocation to the priesthood!

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_20010801_en.html

And CCC

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

 

[Rence]

I have heard it said, that in years to come the Catholic Church will have to ordain women as there are so few entering the priesthood, it will become a necessity. I would like to STRESS, I have not posted this because I agree with this opinion. If women were ordained purely to increase numbers it would be a sad day. I posting to see what others have to say concerning the panic concerning numbers of young men entering the priesthood.

Whether or not I agree with the ordination of women, I have thought of the sad decline in the number of priests and I think that it will drive the Church to either reconsider ordination of women or allowing priests to be married.

When my brother was a student in a high school seminary preparatory, I saw a lot of young men decide not to enter the priesthood after four years of talking about nothing else – because they wanted to get married and have families. Almost all of them said that they would have continued on to the priesthood if they were allowed to get married and have children. And I think that allowing priests to get married might help a bit. It won’t solve the problem because people just aren’t that religious anymore, not like they used to be. But it will help a bit.

A priest recently said at Mass that big changes were coming in the Church because in about 5 years, every priest in Ireland will be over 50. I don’t think he was referring to the ordination of women but he did say things had reached crisis point and we need to adapt and change, as the Israelites did when exiled in Babylon and when Jerusalem was invaded in 70CE. We have also been told we will see a lot more deacons in the future.
.

Well I hope they do something…it’s sad to see only two (or more commonly, only one) priest to a parish.

 

[kozlosap]

If you read through the posts, there are stll Catholics who think it is going to happen eventually. That type of thinking is not only wrong, it is dangerous and a scandal to those who are still learning the faith. It is their choice if they want to live outside The Communion of THe Church and even condemn themselves to hell, but when their words and actions become a scandal for others possibly corrupt their faith, we have an obligation to correct them. That is true charity. Not all this lovie dovie, lets all hold hands during the Our Father, and have friendly conversations during mass with our neighbor because we are at a social event type of charity that labels you as a jerk for actually correcting someone when they are wrong.

I’m not a “hand-holder either”! I pray that if a person is interested in ordaining women that they visit a Episcopal parish and see for themselves the sad difference. I certainly want our young women to be able to feel like they are a part of our Faith, but I think that a huge majority realize that they will never be a priest. As I posted before (many pages back), my daughter (age 25/3rd year law school/a Jesuit University) was an alter server from the time she was twelve until she was sixteen. The experience was very special to her, as it was to both her male and female friends. I’m happy she was able to participate in helping our priest celebrate the Mass from another perspective. A few weeks ago she told me that she hopes that, should she have a daughter, her child would be an alter server! I would never advocate that female alter servers be allowed to serve at traditional parishes or where the Bishop of the specific diocese disagreed with the practice.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

As to me joking about what I said in my post, no, I’m not joking. That’s really how I feel. And yes, **others in real life that I encounter either are for women priests **and believe it will happen, or are not for women priests and don’t care if it happens or not. Only a handful of people staunchly opposite in where I am in real life.

But I can relate to you and your thinking that I am joking because I don’t believe at all some of the posters who posted on this thread about the strange things they say they think about women. I think they are truthful about what they really believe at all, and only mean to offend and rile up the women on this forum. Whatever floats their boat But if they’re the “practicing” Catholics that they claim they are, I’d expect them to be actually living the Faith in word and deed and work towards bringing people closer to the Church rather than making a mockery of the Church and pushing people away from Catholicism with their offensive posts. Because really, I don’t believe a word of it. Especially the ones who say they’re married…unless, of course, they’re in some kind of Master-slave, or Dominance-submission relationship with their wife. That I buy.

And I completely understand your perspective about “enemies” in the Church because I’ve met quite a few on online Catholic forums that I would regard as enemies of the Church and I’m really glad I don’t now these people in real life.

These people deny Jesus Christ and His Church for they tell the Holy Father that they will not hear or obey his words. They tell Jesus that they do not recognize Jesus’ Power over Heaven and Earth. They reject God in so doing because they disobey the Church and in so doing serve the devil.

May God have mercy on them.

1577 "**Only a baptized man **(vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68

68 Cf. John Paul II, MD 26-27; CDF, declaration, Inter insigniores: AAS 69 (1977) 98-116

 

[JacktheCatholic]

In the Gospel of John what did Jesus say to the Priests that said they do see?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

Wait–are you telling us that she is a Roman Catholic DEACON? or that she is a Catholic–or was–and is a deacon in some other faith tradition?

As to me joking about what I said in my post, no, I’m not joking. That’s really how I feel. And yes, others in real life that I encounter either are for women priests and believe it will happen, or are not for women priests and don’t care if it happens or not. Only a handful of people staunchly opposite in where I am in real life. Um, where exactly are you in real life? You haven’t exactly made it clear. And how can you say ‘handful’? Even if right now at 1:32 p.m. eastern standard in the U.S. August 15, 2010, you could somehow interview every Catholic in the world and find out ‘exactly’ what they believe this second about women as priests, would that mean they would still believe exactly that tomorrow? Next week? Next year? What if they had never ‘heard’ , or more likely, had never UNDERSTOOD the correct teaching? What if most of them, on hearing it, rejected it but then–like the prodigal son–accepted it in the future? Did the ‘truth’ CHANGE? Does a majority opinion produce truth? Does truth cease to be truth if not ‘enough’ people accept it?

But I can relate to you and your thinking that I am joking because I don’t believe at all some of the posters who posted on this thread about the strange things they say they think about women. I think they are truthful about what they really believe at all, and only mean to offend and rile up the women on this forum. Whatever floats their boat But if they’re the “practicing” Catholics that they claim they are, I’d expect them to be actually living the Faith in word and deed and work towards bringing people closer to the Church rather than making a mockery of the Church and pushing people away from Catholicism with their offensive posts. Because really, I don’t believe a word of it. Especially the ones who say they’re married…unless, of course, they’re in some kind of Master-slave, or Dominance-submission relationship with their wife. That I buy.

And I completely understand your perspective about “enemies” in the Church because I’ve met quite a few on online Catholic forums that I would regard as enemies of the Church and I’m really glad I don’t now these people in real life.

Well, I’m not going to go around calling people who disagree with me enemies. If, of course, they disagree with Catholic teachings I can–and will–state that they are wrong in their disagreement, especially if they claim to be Catholic but deny Catholic teachings–but if they are enemies to Christ by disobedience, well we ALL disobey Him sometimes. The ones who repent are once again His friends. . .so let’s hope that all who disobey Him will repent and be His friends again. . .

 

[Milesius]

“Let men be with men, and women with women. For now I need the example of Noah’s ark: in which were Noah and his sons, and his wife and his sons’ wives. (…) If the Church is shut, and you are all inside, yet let there be a separation, men with men, and women with women : lest the pretext of salvation become an occasion of destruction. Even if there be a fair pretext for sitting near each other, let passions be put away. Further, let the men when sitting have a useful book; and let one read, and another listen: and if there be no book, let one pray, and another speak something useful. And again let the party of young women sit together in like manner, either singing or reading quietly, so that their lips speak, but others’ ears catch not the sound: for I suffer not a woman to speak in the Church” (Protocatechesis, 14, NPNF, s. 2, v.7). Church Father Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (4th century CE)

This tradition is still maintained by the Eastern Orthodox in many places, traditionally, men stand on the right and women on the left, is it a coincidence that the Eastern Orthodox have an almost equal balance of men to women compared the Western Christianity terrible 80/20 split?

This was was also the preferred Catholic practice and was part of Canon Law up until 1983 though the law was been actively ignored long before then.

Can. 1262. § 1. Optandum ut, congruenter antiquae disciplinae, mulieres in ecclesia separatae sint a viris.

Canon 1262, § 1. “It is desirable that, in harmony with ancient Church order, the women in church be separated from the men.” 1917 Code of Canon Law

How long are people going to keep denying all the indicators and insisting on following ideology instead accepting reality?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Well, I’m not going to go around calling people who disagree with me enemies. If, of course, they disagree with Catholic teachings I can–and will–state that they are wrong in their disagreement, especially if they claim to be Catholic but deny Catholic teachings–but if they are enemies to Christ by disobedience, well we ALL disobey Him sometimes. The ones who repent are once again His friends. . .so let’s hope that all who disobey Him will repent and be His friends again. . .

AMEN!

 

[kozlosap]

Then you are familiar with the Canon and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

“I was blind but now I see,” I saw the Gospel of John with my kids and have been reading after prayer every night to my kids. My daughter is 8 and my son is 10. My son is an altar server.

My daughter was upset the other day because my son is an altar server and she cannot be. Our church only has male altar servers. So I explained that the Altar Server has a special role next to the Priest and Deacon and that the Catholic Church would like it if Alatar Servers becames priests. I had to tell her that the Catholic Church upholds a Tradition going back to Jesus Christ Himself that only men can be Priests. She was pensive still but she understood. God Bless her heart.

John Paul II:
Quote:
Dear altar servers! Yesterday you crossed St Peter’s Square in a long procession to approach the altar …
How beautiful it would be if some of you could discover a vocation to the priesthood!
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…010801_en.html

Jack - You sound like a thoughtful and loving Dad! Since female alter servers are allowed and encouraged in our diocese for parishes which are primarily NO (and especially when the parishes also have a Catholic elementary school attached), then I did not have to explain to my daughter as you did. I live in a pretty large city, (Sacramento is approx. 1.5 million), but we only have one small FSSP Parish. I plan on attending before the summer is over.

JPll was such a magnet to the entire world, not just Catholics. My daughter was studying in Cologne during the year before World Youth Day was to be held there. She said that the excitement about His Holiness attending was almost physical in nature. Of course, JPll was received into Heaven before Youth Day happened, so she did not stay the extra two months. Had I been a young man during the 80’s or 90’s, the example of JPll would certainly have made me think about a vocation within the Church. Peace.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jack - You sound like a thoughtful and loving Dad! Since female alter servers are allowed and encouraged in our diocese for parishes which are primarily NO (and especially when the parishes also have a Catholic elementary school attached), then I did not have to explain to my daughter as you did. I live in a pretty large city, (Sacramento is approx. 1.5 million), but we only have one small FSSP Parish. I plan on attending before the summer is over.

JPll was such a magnet to the entire world, not just Catholics. My daughter was studying in Cologne during the year before World Youth Day was to be held there. She said that the excitement about His Holiness attending was almost physical in nature. Of course, JPll was received into Heaven before Youth Day happened, so she did not stay the extra two months. Had I been a young man during the 80’s or 90’s, the example of JPll would certainly have made me think about a vocation within the Church. Peace.

As to altar girls. It is an accepted.

Further from JPII:

I have spoken of friendship with Jesus. How happy I would be if something more sprang from this friendship! How beautiful it would be if some of you could discover a vocation to the priesthood! Jesus Christ urgently needs young people who generously make themselves available to him without reserve. Furthermore, might not the Lord also be calling some of you girls to embrace the consecrated life in order to serve the Church and the brethren? Also for those who would like to be united in marriage, an altar server’s service teaches that an authentic union must always include readiness for reciprocal and gratuitous service.

Same link I gave before.

I firmly believe we need more priests and nuns. But I also think it important not to mislead our kids. The Church is clear that women cannot be priests.

 

[dixieagle]

My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

If your female teacher became a deacon, she did not do so as a Roman Catholic, no matter what she thinks. Episcopal, or some “womenpriest” group, but not Catholic.

 

[Emmit_Fitzhume]

I am dumbfounded I am dumbfounded because A) this is not possible B) You are a Catholic and you are saying this C) You and she believe it D) for a ton of other reasons

Please explain this statement. THank you

My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

.