Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[Milesius]

I think both girls and boys need to learn how to be men and women, and there are a number of things that are necessary or helpful toward that end.

But learning to hate the other is not one of them.

What do you base that on?

What I said is base on my own intimate knowledge of masculinity and the findings of psychologists.

If a man loves the feminine he will adopt feminine ways and will never fully develop into a man its that simple.

So a boy must reject the feminine on the way to manhood, and to do that he must hate it because you do not reject something you love. And remaining in the company of women before managing to fully develop into a man prevents that development as the man is always drawn back into the save and comfortable world of women, which is completely detrimental to his masculinity during the developmental stage.

 

[PaulinVA]

An old MC I know said “When the girls get involved, the boys leave”. Coupled with the populism and false egalitarianism introduced into the N.O. rite, you get an occasion that men are less inclined to be involved in.

And that is on the men, not the women. I am a middle aged man, try to be true to the Magisterium, am conservative politically, and I find it extremely offensive to have men portrayed this way. I find it even more troubling that it might in fact be true. But, that’s the men’s fault, not the women’s.

Remove the hierarchial elements, the technicalities of the old rite, the exclusiveness, the formality and add in the opposite, including folksy hymns, and you have something that men A) Aren’t attracted to and B) Don’t think they need to be.

So, the fact that the Church holds the Truth has nothing to do with it? The idea that men have to exclude women to feel something is right for them is just plain wrong.

The focus in the modern N.O., as in Protestantism, is on ‘niceness’.** Are there women involved, too? Yes. So it’s not a serious business and there will probably be a fair amount of fussing. Does the project seem to be going along OK? Yes? Good!

“No need for me here”**, say the man. To the pub!

So, once you let women in it’s no longer serious? Women detract from the Church?

I love women in the Church. I am fine with only male priests, although they really need to step up their game.

I agree that the Ordinary Form has been a disaster. I agree that the feel good elements and the informality has led to a lack of reverence and a lack of belief.

But, don’t blame that on altar girls or women who are lectors or cantors. Blame that on the sandalistas (ordained and lay, men and women) who systematically turned the Mass into a gathering instead of the Mass.

 

[Milesius]

Its called gender role development by the way if your interested in doing some research.

A quote from one study:

"Middle Childhood

Whereas parents play a significant role in gender socialization when
their children are very young, when most Western boys and girls enter
school they separate into gender-segregated groups that seem to operate
by their own set of peer-driven rules. Gender segregation is such a
widespread phenomenon that boys and girls seem to work and play
together only when there is a coercive adult present. During
unstructured free time, the lapse into the “two cultures of childhood”
(Maccoby 1998, p. 32) is quite obvious—the other sex becomes “toxic.” A
typical boys’ group is large, competitive, hierarchical, with one or two
boys at the top of the pecking order, and organized around large group
outdoor activities such as sports. Rough-and-tumble play and displays
of strength and toughness frequently occur. In contrast, girls’ groups
tend to be smaller and dependent on intense, intimate conversations
where the emphasis is upon maintaining group cohesion. Girls try very
hard to be “nice” to one another, even as they attempt to covertly
promote their own agenda. In her 1998 book The Two Sexes, Eleanor
Maccoby stated her belief that this segregation, hints of which may be
seen as early as age four or five, begins when girls shy away from their
exuberant, active male playmates, who do not rely as much upon
language for persuasion and influence. The boys’ groups ultimately
evolve into a strict order that avoids anything perceived as feminine."

Some people see the above as a problem, but it is not, it is part a boys natural development of his masculinity, and as such was created within boys by God Himself.

 

[minkymurph]

What do you base that on?

What I said is base on my own intimate knowledge of masculinity and the findings of psychologists.

If a man loves the feminine he will adopt feminine ways and will never fully develop into a man its that simple.

So a boy must reject the feminine on the way to manhood, and to do that he must hate it because you do not reject something you love. And remaining in the company of women before managing to fully develop into a man prevents that development as the man is always drawn back into the save and comfortable world of women, which is completely detrimental to his masculinity during the developmental stage.

What psychologists? Hopefully not Freud!

Seriously though, can you give me a reference for these research studies? I’d be interested in reading them for myself.

I would also like to hear what your definition of ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ is. By your reasoning, a woman could only love a man if she rejects masculinity. I would like to know what I need to reject in order to truly love a man. Wanting to be a priest doesn’t count as I have no desire to be a priest.

 

[Julianna]

And that is on the men, not the women. I am a middle aged man, try to be true to the Magisterium, am conservative politically, and I find it extremely offensive to have men portrayed this way. I find it even more troubling that it might in fact be true. But, that’s the men’s fault, not the women’s.

So, the fact that the Church holds the Truth has nothing to do with it? The idea that men have to exclude women to feel something is right for them is just plain wrong.

So, once you let women in it’s no longer serious? Women detract from the Church?

I love women in the Church. I am fine with only male priests, although they really need to step up their game.

I agree that the Ordinary Form has been a disaster. I agree that the feel good elements and the informality has led to a lack of reverence and a lack of belief.

But, don’t blame that on altar girls or women who are lectors or cantors. Blame that on the sandalistas (ordained and lay, men and women) who systematically turned the Mass into a gathering instead of the Mass.

Yes, sounds like the “boys” problem to me. When girls excel at math and science at the elementary level, then grades drop in these subjects at middle and high school levels…I could say it is because girls are led to believe they aren’t as “smart” as boys…and math and science are not career fields women should engage in. How sad.

I saw it in my own daughter. She wanted to be a “cheerleader”. oh please. Vs. continued study in chemistry and earth science.

I do understand Milisues idea of the separation of boys and girls in an education forum. It also works the other way. Girls who are in a “girls” only educational environment in middle and high school school continue their interest in math and science.

There is a child star, Dannica McKeller who has a very high IQ in math and science and spoke on encouraging girls and women to explore this.

In Church, however, there is plenty of room for boys and girls to work “together”. Serving at the altar can only enhance service to the Church in the form of volunteerism, teaching, and yes, encourage vocations. I know, that women are never going to be priests in my lifetime. The girls who are serving now, know this and know why. It is the “service” to parish community and therefore God, that keeps children in the Church as adults.

I part company with Milisues on the “rough and tumble” of boys. Not all boys are “sports” focused. My son is an “intellect”, high science, high math. He could care less what the top score at last years Superbowl was, or who won on WWF last Tuesday. He is more interested in “how things work”. To place someone like him in an “all males”, “take your lumps” boy’s school would be detrimental.

It boils down to “what you want”. If there is a young man out there, man enough to say, “Hey, I am going to serve on the altar, girls or no girls…” and by the same token, our girls to say, “I’m taking advanced math and chemistry…this semester and I don’t care if I am the only girl in the class.” This is what needs to be fostered. Each of have gifts, doesn’t matter what the “gender” is. To hide those “gifts” under the bushel basket labeled, “boys don’t do that, or girls don’t do that”…we are not fulfilling our destiny as God planned.

 

[PaulinVA]

Some people see the above as a problem, but it is not, it is part a boys natural development of his masculinity, and as such was created within boys by God Himself.

Yes, yes, I have raised children of both genders. I understand this. But, you need to make a distinction between voluntary peer groups and public participation. Being an altar server is public participation. It’s not a group of friends who hang out together. The altar server group might overlap with voluntary peer groups, but it isn’t one.

I think that the priest abuse scandal, quite frankly, is more responsible for the declining participation of boys, because the altar servers were largely the targeted group. It’s the parents decision involved in this as well.

 

[minkymurph]

Its called gender role development by the way if your interested in doing some research.

A quote from one study:

"Middle Childhood

Whereas parents play a significant role in gender socialization when
their children are very young, when most Western boys and girls enter
school they separate into gender-segregated groups that seem to operate
by their own set of peer-driven rules. Gender segregation is such a
widespread phenomenon that boys and girls seem to work and play
together only when there is a coercive adult present. During
unstructured free time, the lapse into the “two cultures of childhood”
(Maccoby 1998, p. 32) is quite obvious—the other sex becomes “toxic.” A
typical boys’ group is large, competitive, hierarchical, with one or two
boys at the top of the pecking order, and organized around large group
outdoor activities such as sports. Rough-and-tumble play and displays
of strength and toughness frequently occur. In contrast, girls’ groups
tend to be smaller and dependent on intense, intimate conversations
where the emphasis is upon maintaining group cohesion. Girls try very
hard to be “nice” to one another, even as they attempt to covertly
promote their own agenda. In her 1998 book The Two Sexes, Eleanor
Maccoby stated her belief that this segregation, hints of which may be
seen as early as age four or five, begins when girls shy away from their
exuberant, active male playmates, who do not rely as much upon
language for persuasion and influence. The boys’ groups ultimately
evolve into a strict order that avoids anything perceived as feminine."

I see nothing here that says men should hate what is feminine, need to hate what is feminine, or must hate what is feminine.

Some people see the above as a problem, but it is not, it is part a boys natural development of his masculinity, and as such was created within boys by God Himself.

Are these words your addition, or part of the study? God created what exactly? Hatred of anything feminine?

Children very often behave in school, in they manner they would not behave anywhere else. Schools also happen to be socialising agents and often reinforce the traditional gender role. It doesn’t take you to be a nuclear physicist to work out children adapt in different environments.

I know few people who don’t accept men and women are differnet in many ways, so I’m not sure what point your making. Other than there are men who from an early age hate anything feminine which continues into adulthood. No need to convince me of that. I believe you. You do however need to convince me that God created man with an inherent hatred of anything feminine. I’ve never heard that one before. Must ask my lecturer if he has heard of it and see what he has to say.

 

[Milesius]

By your reasoning, a woman could only love a man if she rejects masculinity. I would like to know what I need to reject in order to truly love a man. Wanting to be a priest doesn’t count as I have no desire to be a priest.

No it does not work like that you are making the mistake of thinking that because a boy goes through something a girl must also go through something similar but that is not the case. The development of a girl to womanhood is a great deal more different.

Both boys and girls are born to mothers, boys to become men have to at some point reject the ways of their mother, girls don’t have to reject the ways of the mother they are free to embrace the ways of the mother because those ways are appropriate to their development into a woman like the mother is a woman.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

An old MC I know said “When the girls get involved, the boys leave”. Coupled with the populism and false egalitarianism introduced into the N.O. rite, you get an occasion that men are less inclined to be involved in.

Remove the hierarchial elements, the technicalities of the old rite, the exclusiveness, the formality and add in the opposite, including folksy hymns, and you have something that men A) Aren’t attracted to and B) Don’t think they need to be.

The focus in the modern N.O., as in Protestantism, is on ‘niceness’.** Are there women involved, too? Yes. So it’s not a serious business and there will probably be a fair amount of fussing. Does the project seem to be going along OK? Yes? Good!

“No need for me here”**, say the man. To the pub!

Makes sense to me. To the pub!

In our old church which is very liberal there are few men that show up and even fewer involved with the church.

The church I am at now is traditional. It has only boys or men as altar servers. Men are involved much more and attendance is high.

I would even boast by saying that at some Masses we hava as many as 30 to 40 alter servers. Last night with our TLM we had the Priest and a Deacon and a Sub Deacon. As well as 10 altar servers (my son included). I notice a definate difference in these two churches and believe traditional is suprior in every way.

 

[Rence]

When I was Catholic, I was completely put off by the whole idea of altar girls. I am almost positive that one would not find them at a Tridentine Mass, but they are rather common amongst the Novus Ordo types. Does anyone think that altar girls will eventually lead to female deacons and eventually priests? I think it’s only a logical step (unless the practice is to completely cease, of course), but that it would most likely cause a schism in the Church of Rome. Anyone have thoughts about this?

I’m sorry Andrew, that you are so put off by female altar servers. I hope you can find a parish or Mass that doesn’t include them. There’s no reason to be aggravated and angry when one is at Mass. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with altar girls. If my parish didn’t include girls as well as boy altar servers, I’d go to another parish that includes both.

When I was in grammar school, one of the female teachers became a deacon. She wasn’t an altar girl as a child, but she was a great teacher and it was nice to have her as a deacon.

I don’t think being an altar boy always leads boys to be priests, so I don’t think that being an altar girl will necessarily inspire a girl to want to become a priest, or a nun for that matter. My brother was an altar server, and found it “fun” but was never really into faith building. He toyed with the idea of being a priest when he was in high school (though he never attended weekly Mass regularly throughout grammar and never in high school), but he found the lifestyle to be too restrictive and depressive. He just didn’t have the calling to be a priest. He wanted to get married and have children. I, OTOH, had no interest in being a nun, sister, priestess, altar server, or anything like that. Most of the women I know that are in favor of women’s ordination aren’t altar servers. So in my experience (and not statistically speaking of course) I don’t think having altar girls will lead to women’s ordination.

As to schism, I don’t think that there will be a schism. People will just remain Catholic and do what they want, and live how they want. In a way, can you blame them? The Church teaches that we are marked with an indelable mark when we are Baptised and teaches that they basically own those who are baptised, even if one formally leaves, so why would someone leave when they can just do what they want and not be accountable?

I’m suspecting that if women were ever ordained, the radical traditionals will just leave the Church (where they would go is beyond me) because they’ve said so. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read a radical traditional threatening to leave the RCC if women became ordained, and their reason was because if the RCC ever ordained women, the gates of hell prevailed, so the RCC couldn’t possibly be the True Church. That reason always amused me, because they’re basically saying: the RCC is the One True Church evar in the whole wide world ---- unless they ordain women, and then if they do, well, I’m going to pick up my marbles and go home and be the radical traditional version of the cafe Catholic

I suspect that women will eventually be ordained, though I may not see it in my lifetime. I suspect it will be a lot like Vatican II, where some were happy with it and some were so incredibly unhappy with it that they stopped going to Church and left, only to return later when they got off their high horse. I mean, if the Pope is the infallible leader of the Church in teachings of faith and morals, then he is so whether you like what he’s saying or not…right? At least that’s what they tell me, so I think it’s fair to say it works both ways.

As to those who really and truly want to be priestesses, well, they’re either doing it anyway, going to other religions, or making it a goal to which, in some way, they are working towards. They have a lot of resources and support. So being an altar girl isn’t going to drive them either direction unless they already have the drive to begin with.

Growing up, I didn’t have an interest in it. And even now it doesn’t interest me. To be honest, I never gave it too much thought until I came to CAF where there is so much resistance to it. I can’t say there is a lot of woman-hating here. Some are crazy women haters, some are just normal people with healthy values who are simply opposed to women’s ordination. Unfortunately, when I started reading the reasons why female ordination is forbidden, they sounded like balonie and left me with more questions. The more I read about why people are opposed to women’s ordination, the more I’d be happy for women to be ordained, because it just doesn’t make sense or sound right.

I don’t mean to sound selfish but this just isn’t an area of my life that matters. I have other priorities of course, but this isn’t one of them. That said, if I don’t see women ordained in my lifetime, well, that’s okay. But if it does, I’d be happy to see it. Either way, it’s not enough to make me leave the Church.

 

[Emmit_Fitzhume]

Which denomination/sect was your female teacher a member of? It certainly was not The Roman Catholic Church. I also find it troubling that you actually believe in women’s ordination and the possibility it could happen. Is this poster joking do they really believe the words they are typing? I sure hope the majority of Catholics don’t hold these opinions. If they do, the Church is in for a bigger struggle than I imagined.

Who needs enemies outside of The Church when there are “Catholics” inside The Church that hold such extreme views against true Catholic Dogma and Doctrine. This is very troubling

I’m sorry Andrew, that you are so put off by female altar servers. I hope you can find a parish or Mass that doesn’t include them. There’s no reason to be aggravated and angry when one is at Mass. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with altar girls. **If my parish didn’t include girls as well as boy altar servers, I’d go to another parish that includes both. **

When I was in grammar school, one of the female teachers became a deacon. She wasn’t an altar girl as a child, but she was a great teacher and it was nice to have her as a deacon.

I don’t think being an altar boy always leads boys to be priests, so I don’t think that being an altar girl will necessarily inspire a girl to want to become a priest, or a nun for that matter. My brother was an altar server, and found it “fun” but was never really into faith building. He toyed with the idea of being a priest when he was in high school (though he never attended weekly Mass regularly throughout grammar and never in high school), but he found the lifestyle to be too restrictive and depressive. He just didn’t have the calling to be a priest. He wanted to get married and have children. I, OTOH, had no interest in being a nun, sister, priestess, altar server, or anything like that. Most of the women I know that are in favor of women’s ordination aren’t altar servers. So in my experience (and not statistically speaking of course) I don’t think having altar girls will lead to women’s ordination.

As to schism, I don’t think that there will be a schism. People will just remain Catholic and do what they want, and live how they want. In a way, can you blame them? The Church teaches that we are marked with an indelable mark when we are Baptised and teaches that they basically own those who are baptised, even if one formally leaves, so why would someone leave when they can just do what they want and not be accountable?

I’m suspecting that if women were ever ordained, the radical traditionals will just leave the Church (where they would go is beyond me) because they’ve said so. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read a radical traditional threatening to leave the RCC if women became ordained, and their reason was because if the RCC ever ordained women, the gates of hell prevailed, so the RCC couldn’t possibly be the True Church. That reason always amused me, because they’re basically saying: the RCC is the One True Church evar in the whole wide world ---- unless they ordain women, and then if they do, well, I’m going to pick up my marbles and go home and be the radical traditional version of the cafe Catholic

I suspect that women will eventually be ordained, though I may not see it in my lifetime. I suspect it will be a lot like Vatican II, where some were happy with it and some were so incredibly unhappy with it that they stopped going to Church and left,** only to return later when they got off their high horse**. I mean, if the Pope is the infallible leader of the Church in teachings of faith and morals, then he is so whether you like what he’s saying or not…right? At least that’s what they tell me, so I think it’s fair to say it works both ways.

As to those who really and truly want to be priestesses, well, they’re either doing it anyway, going to other religions, or making it a goal to which, in some way, they are working towards. They have a lot of resources and support. So being an altar girl isn’t going to drive them either direction unless they already have the drive to begin with.

Growing up, I didn’t have an interest in it. And even now it doesn’t interest me. To be honest, I never gave it too much thought until I came to CAF where there is so much resistance to it. I can’t say there is a lot of woman-hating here. Some are crazy women haters, some are just normal people with healthy values who are simply opposed to women’s ordination. Unfortunately, when I started reading the reasons why female ordination is forbidden, they sounded like balonie and left me with more questions. The more I read about why people are opposed to women’s ordination, the more I’d be happy for women to be ordained, because it just doesn’t make sense or sound right.

I don’t mean to sound selfish but this just isn’t an area of my life that matters. I have other priorities of course, but this isn’t one of them. That said, if I don’t see women ordained in my lifetime, well, that’s okay. But if it does, I’d be happy to see it. Either way, it’s not enough to make me leave the Church.

 

[minkymurph]

No it does not work like that you are making the mistake of thinking that because a boy goes through something a girl must also go through something similar but that is not the case. The development of a girl to womanhood is a great deal more different.

Well, I wouldn’t dispute the development of a girl to womanhood is different from the development of a boy to manhood.

Both boys and girls are born to mothers, boys to become men have to at some point reject the ways of their mother, girls don’t have to reject the ways of the mother they are free to embrace the ways of the mother because those ways are appropriate to their development into a woman like the mother is a woman.

OK. Firstly, can you define what you mean by ‘ways?’

Secondly, what ‘ways’ do boys need to reject and what ‘ways’ do girls not have to reject?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Which denomination/sect was your female teacher a member of? It certainly was not The Roman Catholic Church. I also find it troubling that you actually believe in women’s ordination and the possibility it could happen. Is this poster joking do they really believe the words they are typing? I sure hope the majority of Catholics don’t hold these opinions. If they do, the Church is in for a bigger struggle than I imagined.

Who needs enemies outside of The Church when there are “Catholics” inside The Church that hold such extreme views against true Catholic Dogma and Doctrine. This is very troubling

Excommunication.

It does not have to come from a Bishop. People excommunicate themselves from the Body of Christ as well. Hell is their reward unless they repent.

Trust in God. His Church will stand.

 

[kozlosap]

Excommunication.

It does not have to come from a Bishop. People excommunicate themselves from the Body of Christ as well. Hell is their reward unless they repent.

Trust in God. His Church will stand.

It’s Sunday morning, do you know where your charity is stored? At mass this morning I decided to “watch” and see what happened when there was one female alter server and one male server. Well, guess what? Mass was celebrated without a hitch! During Communion, the person 2 or 3 people in front of me knelled and had cott and no one fell down and the line did not break up. This probably happens on a daily basis, but no one notices because it’s “normal” for our parish.

 

[CradleCath]

It’s not the same.

Jesus was united with the Father, he had no desire to be united with a woman, His love of the Father is what left Him free to love all women.

This same longing to be united with God is what makes priestly and monastic celibacy possible, the love of nothing but God, been consumed utterly by the love of God and the desire to be united with God drives out the natural desire to unite with a woman, and only then is it safe to love all women. Even then though such men do not love women for their own sake but rather for God. And even monastics do not put their love to the test by having mixed sex communities you will notice.

Most men do not have such a all consuming love of God. Most men have a drive to be united with a woman, this can be ONE woman who he loves exclusively or it can be ALL Women.

Because it is natural to man to desire to be united with that which he loves and the closest form of unity between a man and a woman is expressed in the marital act, if a man loves a woman there will be a part of him that desires to to enter into a physical union with her. If he loves a lot of women or even all women he will want to enter into physical union with them all, the physical expression is the major way in which man communicates his love.

We are not slaves to these desires but we certainly can make decisions that make things a lot easier or a lot harder for us to live the life we are called to live.

The Church teaches that there are four different kinds of love & it seems that you are speaking of only one type…Eros. There is
agape, or the spiritual love that we feel for God & for His Church.
This is a very powerful kind of love that diminishes the need to love others with a sexual or Erotic love for some people. It is the type of love that is primary to those who choose the celibate life of a priest or celibate religious. Through a strong sense of agape one can choose to love God first & foremost, to the exclusion of Eros.

HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that a priest or celibate religious, cannot or does not feel a familial love or a love of mankind & womankind in addition to the agape that he feels for God. For instance there is also storge, or familial love which we feel for those who are in our family & this kind of love is very protective. The best example I can give of storge is the love I feel for my children. When one of them is hurt…I’m also hurt. I believe that this is the kind of love that we also extend to close friends…people whose presence in our lives is important, whose friendship is at the center of our lives. I am a woman, but my "storge" extends to men that I’ve known & “loved” since high school. Two of my best friends are men. I don’t see them often, but without them my world would be diminished. My husband knows them & is usually with me when I do see them.

Philia is a Greek word that means friendship
and, of course… There is also the love between aquaintances, & I think it’s by this type of love that encompasses the world we live in. Philia is a Greek word that means friendship. And I believe that a priest is obligated by Christ to feel Philia for his parishioners & fellow priests.
and, of course… sexual love, the familiar** eros** the type of love reserved for marriage between a man & a woman.

To say that a celibate man cannot love women is a mistake. He must simply love them in a non-erotic way. I believe that, the graces received from the Sacrament of Holy Orders, enables this. I also believe that the ability to love in a Philia way is a gift of God to those He calls to serve him by choosing celibacy.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It’s Sunday morning, do you know where your charity is stored? At mass this morning I decided to “watch” and see what happened when there was one female alter server and one male server. Well, guess what? Mass was celebrated without a hitch! During Communion, the person 2 or 3 people in front of me knelled and had cott and no one fell down and the line did not break up. This probably happens on a daily basis, but no one notices because it’s “normal” for our parish.

It was Charity that caused my post.

It is Charity that reminds one of our brethren that their ways are wicked.

It is Charity that tells the hypocrites that one will god to Hell unless they mend their ways.

It is Charity to tell a Catholic that the Pope and the Magesterium is the voice of Christ and to ignore or deny them is to deny Christ Himself.

Heaven and Hell are real. Eternal pain and suffering is real.

My Charity is from my heart and soul which are in the Body of Christ. For as I am in Christ so too is Christ in me.

You are forgiven your trespass by me. Shalom.

 

[minkymurph]

Which denomination/sect was your female teacher a member of? It certainly was not The Roman Catholic Church. I also find it troubling that you actually believe in women’s ordination and the possibility it could happen. Is this poster joking do they really believe the words they are typing? I sure hope the majority of Catholics don’t hold these opinions. If they do, the Church is in for a bigger struggle than I imagined.

Who needs enemies outside of The Church when there are “Catholics” inside The Church that hold such extreme views against true Catholic Dogma and Doctrine. This is very troubling

I have heard it said, that in years to come the Catholic Church will have to ordain women as there are so few entering the priesthood, it will become a necessity. I would like to STRESS, I have not posted this because I agree with this opinion. If women were ordained purely to increase numbers it would be a sad day. I posting to see what others have to say concerning the panic concerning numbers of young men entering the priesthood.

A priest recently said at Mass that big changes were coming in the Church because in about 5 years, every priest in Ireland will be over 50. I don’t think he was referring to the ordination of women but he did say things had reached crisis point and we need to adapt and change, as the Israelites did when exiled in Babylon and when Jerusalem was invaded in 70CE. We have also been told we will see a lot more deacons in the future.

.

 

[kozlosap]

Thanks Jack, but can you really in all good conscience say that someone should have their ability to receive the sacraments removed because of one post on an internet forum? That would be like me (a high school teacher) diagnosing someone with a brain tumor who wrote that they have a headache and see spots in front of their eyes! Unless we all can find it in ourselves to look at each other without being suspect of “heresy” when we disagree, what will happen to us?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The Church teaches that there are four different kinds of love & it seems that you are speaking of only one type…Eros. There is
agape, or the spiritual love that we feel for God & for His Church.
This is a very powerful kind of love that diminishes the need to love others with a sexual or Erotic love for some people. It is the type of love that is primary to those who choose the celibate life of a priest or celibate religious. Through a strong sense of agape one can choose to love God first & foremost, to the exclusion of Eros.

HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that a priest or celibate religious, cannot or does not feel a familial love or a love of mankind & womankind in addition to the agape that he feels for God. For instance there is also storge, or familial love which we feel for those who are in our family & this kind of love is very protective. The best example I can give of storge is the love I feel for my children. When one of them is hurt…I’m also hurt. I believe that this is the kind of love that we also extend to close friends…people whose presence in our lives is important, whose friendship is at the center of our lives. I am a woman, but my "storge" extends to men that I’ve known & “loved” since high school. Two of my best friends are men. I don’t see them often, but without them my world would be diminished. My husband knows them & is usually with me when I do see them.

Philia is a Greek word that means friendship
and, of course… There is also the love between aquaintances, & I think it’s by this type of love that encompasses the world we live in. Philia is a Greek word that means friendship. And I believe that a priest is obligated by Christ to feel Philia for his parishioners & fellow priests.
and, of course… sexual love, the familiar** eros** the type of love reserved for marriage between a man & a woman.

To say that a celibate man cannot love women is a mistake. He must simply love them in a non-erotic way. I believe that, the graces received from the Sacrament of Holy Orders, enables this. I also believe that the ability to love in a Philia way is a gift of God to those He calls to serve him by choosing celibacy.

So long as we do not confuse lust with love as the world does.

Jesus says that those that are His are not of this world.

And what does 1 Corinthians say about love?

Or what did Jesus say to the man who did not want to leave his family and follow him?

To worship God is to place God in the center of our world and not things or people of this world. I love my wife and kids and believe I would die for them but God still is before them so they can not be the center of my world.

What is Lust?

What is Love?

They are not the same.

If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Where does scripture speak of this erotic or sexual love???

 

[ProVobis]

But learning to hate the other is not one of them.

This is a ridiculous notion, and one that I suspect has been planted by the progressive elements of our society and it’s sad these elements have entered into the Church’s mainstream. Boys and girls are naturally attracted to each other and their roles have been defined by God. Any such hate you speak of is therefore learned.