Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[dixieagle]

Whether or not I agree with the ordination of women, I have thought of the sad decline in the number of priests and I think that it will drive the Church to either reconsider ordination of women or allowing priests to be married.

When my brother was a student in a high school seminary preparatory, I saw a lot of young men decide not to enter the priesthood after four years of talking about nothing else – because they wanted to get married and have families. Almost all of them said that they would have continued on to the priesthood if they were allowed to get married and have children. And I think that allowing priests to get married might help a bit. It won’t solve the problem because people just aren’t that religious anymore, not like they used to be. But it will help a bit.

Well I hope they do something…it’s sad to see only two (or more commonly, only one) priest to a parish.

I firmly believe that, before too much time has passed, married men will be allowed to be ordained on a much broader scale than is now the case (of course, there are a number of married formerly Protestant clergy, who are now Catholic priests; we have several in local parishes.) It has, of course, been the tradition to allow the ordination of married men in churches of the Eastern rites (my husband was baptized by a priest who was the son of a priest…)

Of course, celibacy must still be a respected tradition. Just as not all are called to celibacy, not all are called to marriage.

Ordination of women not only will not, but cannot, happen.

 

[Rence]

I am dumbfounded I am dumbfounded because A) this is not possible B) You are a Catholic and you are saying this C) You and she believe it D) for a ton of other reasons

Originally Posted by Rence
My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

Ok

My sixth grade female teacher, was made a deacon, in the Roman Catholic Church that ran the Roman Catholic grammar school that I attended. And she served in a deacon capacity in that Church, according to that Roman Catholic Church that ran the Roman Catholic grammar school. She was there at least until I graduated. I don’t know what became of most of them after I graduated because I frequented another parish for a while. But I know she was there for the years that I was there, until after I graduated.

 

[Julianna]

Emmit - in all sincerity, I don’t think I’ve seen one post in this reallllllly long thread that advocated ordaining women. Most posters that are in favor of allowing girls to be alter servers during the NO Mass think that just because females are alter servers doesn’t mean they will want to become priests when they are adults.

Thanks, kozlosap…I clearly understood that.

The panic and fear is coming from the other side…based on the OP.

 

[Julianna]

My female teacher who became a deacon is Roman Catholic.

As to me joking about what I said in my post, no, I’m not joking. That’s really how I feel. And yes, others in real life that I encounter either are for women priests and believe it will happen, or are not for women priests and don’t care if it happens or not. Only a handful of people staunchly opposite in where I am in real life.

But I can relate to you and your thinking that I am joking because I don’t believe at all some of the posters who posted on this thread about the strange things they say they think about women. I think they are truthful about what they really believe at all, and only mean to offend and rile up the women on this forum. Whatever floats their boat But if they’re the “practicing” Catholics that they claim they are, I’d expect them to be actually living the Faith in word and deed and work towards bringing people closer to the Church rather than making a mockery of the Church and pushing people away from Catholicism with their offensive posts. Because really, I don’t believe a word of it. Especially the ones who say they’re married…unless, of course, they’re in some kind of Master-slave, or Dominance-submission relationship with their wife. That I buy.

And I completely understand your perspective about “enemies” in the Church because I’ve met quite a few on online Catholic forums that I would regard as enemies of the Church and I’m really glad I don’t now these people in real life.

WTG Rence…I couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[Julianna]

Whether or not I agree with the ordination of women, I have thought of the sad decline in the number of priests and I think that it will drive the Church to either reconsider ordination of women or allowing priests to be married.

When my brother was a student in a high school seminary preparatory, I saw a lot of young men decide not to enter the priesthood after four years of talking about nothing else – because they wanted to get married and have families. Almost all of them said that they would have continued on to the priesthood if they were allowed to get married and have children. And I think that allowing priests to get married might help a bit. It won’t solve the problem because people just aren’t that religious anymore, not like they used to be. But it will help a bit.

Well I hope they do something…it’s sad to see only two (or more commonly, only one) priest to a parish.

I think there will be married priests well before women priests. It’s about the “man”…basically. Doesn’t bother me either way. The reason married priests went out of favor, is because the Church did not want any “heirs” to the Church property. My Baptist grandmother always asked me why priests can’t get married…and went on to say the Bible says, “man should not be alone”, and that’s why her pastor has a family.

When you look outside of the “tunnel vision” some have inside the Church…into the “real” world and look at other faiths…you see different interpretations of the “whys” and “wherefores”…kind of like reading an insurance policy…same coverage…different terms.

 

[minkymurph]

Ok

My sixth grade female teacher, was made a deacon, in the Roman Catholic Church that ran the Roman Catholic grammar school that I attended. And she served in a deacon capacity in that Church, according to that Roman Catholic Church that ran the Roman Catholic grammar school. She was there at least until I graduated. I don’t know what became of most of them after I graduated because I frequented another parish for a while. But I know she was there for the years that I was there, until after I graduated.

I’m not saying this is the case, but is it possible this woman was a deacon, but the ordination was not valid? I have known of renegade priests and bishops who carry out actions not sanctioned by the Church.

For example, during the Irish Civil War, priests were instructed not to give absolution to members of the IRA who would not renounce violence. Most Irish priests complied but some did not, and continued to absolve members of the IRA who were involved in acts of violence.

A friend of mine who is an art student, told me how pleased she was when a fellow student told her she was going to become a christian. Until she further explained that her boyfriend was Catholic and a transvestite and she was attending a Catholic Church for transvestites in London with him!

I wonder what the priest wears! I would suspect this church may be calling itself catholic, but not in full communion with Rome.

 

[minkymurph]

The proponents of women’s ordination always try create a fear and panic so that people will haphazardly support their views. I can see how it is very easy for a poorly catechized Catholic who is really uninformed on matters to allow themselves to be seduced by this brainwashing. These agitators put the fear of there not being any more priest which means no more sacraments, etc, etc. It is fear mongering and brain washing. Out of fear, the people support this asinine argument. The proponents feel if they garnish enough support. that The Church will change its mind on the subject. The hugely hilarious point of all of this is that their efforts are completely in vain, because THE CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY OR ABILITY to ordain women. It is not just something they can decide to do. No shortage of priest or any other “Impending disaster” will change that, even if The Church wanted to, it can not. IT shows how much these “Catholics” know about their own faith. These people are serpents trying destroy us from within.

Do you understand that it can never happen? How many times do you have to be told, before you take it to heart?

Your last comment is extremely unfair. I stated quite clearly in this post that I did not agree. I stated quite clearly in other posts that I don’t support the ordination of women. I stated quite clearly that ordaining women would change the whole nature of the Catholic faith. I stated quite clearly it would entirely change the Catholic understanding of sacraments and the sacrifice of Christ. I made it clear at the outset, I was not posting what I did because I agreed. I posted what I did because of the panic the shortage of priests is causing and expected a positive response. Your arguement about fear is a very valid one.

However,

YES, I DO UNDERSTAND IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN.

NOTHING IN MY POST SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.

I AM AN INTELLIGENT WOMEN AND DON’T HAVE TO BE TOLD VERY MUCH MORE THAN ONCE AND DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE CONDITION OF MY HEART.

If this seems offensive, I apologise, but as you don’t know me from Adam, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t talk to me as if you did.

 

[kozlosap]

Your last comment is extremely unfair. I stated quite clearly in this post that I did not agree. I stated quite clearly in other posts that I don’t support the ordination of women. I stated quite clearly that ordaining women would change the whole nature of the Catholic faith. I stated quite clearly it would entirely change the Catholic understanding of sacraments and the sacrifice of Christ. I made it clear at the outset, I was not posting what I did because I agreed. I posted what I did because of the panic the shortage of priests is causing and expected a positive response. Your arguement about fear is a very valid one.

However,

YES, I DO UNDERSTAND IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN.

NOTHING IN MY POST SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.

I AM AN INTELLIGENT WOMEN AND DON’T HAVE TO BE TOLD VERY MUCH MORE THAN ONCE AND DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE CONDITION OF MY HEART.

If this seems offensive, I apologise, but as you don’t know me from Adam, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t talk to me as if you did.

Way to go!

 

[ProVobis]

This was was also the preferred Catholic practice and was part of Canon Law up until 1983 though the law was been actively ignored long before then.

Can. 1262. § 1. Optandum ut, congruenter antiquae disciplinae, mulieres in ecclesia separatae sint a viris.

Canon 1262, § 1. “It is desirable that, in harmony with ancient Church order, the women in church be separated from the men.” 1917 Code of Canon Law

This was observed in many Catholic schools as well, especially the high schools.

 

[Rence]

I’m not saying this is the case, but is it possible this woman was a deacon, but the ordination was not valid? I have known of renegade priests and bishops who carry out actions not sanctioned by the Church.

If that were true, wouldn’t the pastor have been excommunicated? I know for a fact that the pastor remained in his (quite liberal) position as pastor until he retired a few years ago.

 

[Rence]

“Let men be with men, and women with women. For now I need the example of Noah’s ark: in which were Noah and his sons, and his wife and his sons’ wives. (…) If the Church is shut, and you are all inside, yet let there be a separation, men with men, and women with women : lest the pretext of salvation become an occasion of destruction. Even if there be a fair pretext for sitting near each other, let passions be put away. Further, let the men when sitting have a useful book; and let one read, and another listen: and if there be no book, let one pray, and another speak something useful. And again let the party of young women sit together in like manner, either singing or reading quietly, so that their lips speak, but others’ ears catch not the sound: for I suffer not a woman to speak in the Church” (Protocatechesis, 14, NPNF, s. 2, v.7). Church Father Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (4th century CE)

This tradition is still maintained by the Eastern Orthodox in many places, traditionally, men stand on the right and women on the left, is it a coincidence that the Eastern Orthodox have an almost equal balance of men to women compared the Western Christianity terrible 80/20 split?

This was was also the preferred Catholic practice and was part of Canon Law up until 1983 though the law was been actively ignored long before then.

Can. 1262. § 1. Optandum ut, congruenter antiquae disciplinae, mulieres in ecclesia separatae sint a viris.

Canon 1262, § 1. “It is desirable that, in harmony with ancient Church order, the women in church be separated from the men.” 1917 Code of Canon Law

How long are people going to keep denying all the indicators and insisting on following ideology instead accepting reality?

And yet, no one is separated at Church today. All females and males are together at Mass.

As to women being silent and at the back of Church, if that was required of me, I would not attend Mass or I’d go somewhere where I was actually welcome. I wouldn’t want to be part of a Church that mandated I am not good enough but to sit silent at the back of Church. That’s not where I want to be. These things were written at a much different time and place, like when women were someone else’s property. I am my own Mistress and no one owns me or tells me to go in the back and shut up. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that’s how I feel about it.

 

[Milesius]

And yet, no one is separated at Church today. All females and males are together at Mass.

Most men are not even at Church today, you couldn’t fill a whole side of the church with men at the mass I go to, you couldn’t even fill the front row if you excluded men over forty.

 

[dixieagle]

Ok

My sixth grade female teacher, was made a deacon, in the Roman Catholic Church that ran the Roman Catholic grammar school that I attended. And she served in a deacon capacity in that Church, according to that Roman Catholic Church that ran the Roman Catholic grammar school. She was there at least until I graduated. I don’t know what became of most of them after I graduated because I frequented another parish for a while. But I know she was there for the years that I was there, until after I graduated.

No, she was not. There are no female deacons in the Roman Catholic Church, though bogus “ordinations” have been attempted by dissident groups (womenpriest).

Who “ordained” her?

 

[ProVobis]

Most men are not even at Church today, you couldn’t fill a whole side of the church with men at the mass I go to, you couldn’t even fill the front row if you excluded men over forty.

Very true at a lot of parishes except if you attend the EF.

 

[dixieagle]

Most men are not even at Church today, you couldn’t fill a whole side of the church with men at the mass I go to, you couldn’t even fill the front row if you excluded men over forty.

How sad! We have hundreds of men of all ages - children through the elderly, with plenty of teenagers, young men, and men in their “prime” - at several Masses each weekend. There are also long lines for the communal penance services (with individual confessions, of course) scheduled periodically.

We are, by the way, a very large, active OF parish.

 

[minkymurph]

If that were true, wouldn’t the pastor have been excommunicated? I know for a fact that the pastor remained in his (quite liberal) position as pastor until he retired a few years ago.

I may well be wrong. It was a suggestion, nothing more. I have no facts to go on. It is possible an invalid ordination was carried out. The Irish singer Sinead O’Connor had apparently been ordained a priest. The Church does not recognise it.

The Church doesn’t just jump in and excommunicate people wiily nilly, despite the fact that there are people who would like them to. They have been known to try the diplomatic approach first. I’m not sure of all the details but I can recall a case of a priest whose theology was in some way contrary to those of the Church. The Church attempted to reason with him and he would not be swayed. Therefore, he was no longer permitted to say Mass but he could continue as a theologian.

 

[kozlosap]

How sad! We have hundreds of men of all ages - children through the elderly, with plenty of teenagers, young men, and men in their “prime” - at several Masses each weekend.

We are about 50/50 too - large suburban Jesuit parish on the West Coast.

 

[Rence]

No, she was not. There are no female deacons in the Roman Catholic Church, though bogus “ordinations” have been attempted by dissident groups (womenpriest).

Who “ordained” her?

I am not sure – I didn’t attend the service. I want to say that it was the pastor, but I honestly don’t remember that detail and I wouldn’t know who “ordains” a deacon. Don’t ordinations come from the Bishop? All I know is that it was announced in Church and over the PA that Ms. So-and-so was newly made a deacon and would be serving in that capacity there at the Church. Everyone accepted her…if someone opposed, I didn’t know about it. And like I said, she was there in that capacity for a few years before I graduated. If this was “forbidden”, how could she have served the parish in that capacity, and how could the pastor be in good standing with the his Bishop, and even still be in that position? how could the Bishop remain in his position?

 

[dixieagle]

If that were true, wouldn’t the pastor have been excommunicated? I know for a fact that the pastor remained in his (quite liberal) position as pastor until he retired a few years ago.

Priests don’t ordain deacons…bishops do. If any pastor attempted “ordination” - woman or not - he should have been in very deep hot water.

It sounds as if a very liberal priest concocted a “pseudo-ordination” of this woman, if, indeed, she was referred to as a deacon. The bishop should have been all over this.

 

[ProVobis]

No, she was not. There are no female deacons in the Roman Catholic Church, though bogus “ordinations” have been attempted by dissident groups (womenpriest).

Who “ordained” her?

Apparently there have been female “deacons” or “servants of the Church.” However not sacramentally.

the-american-catholic.com/2009/05/20/can-women-be-deacons/