Will America become socialist now that Biden has basically won?

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Poverty and that the crime was committed to meet an “immediate and basic need.”

That could be construed as such, Harry.

In addition, as far as the mentally ill go, I’m not sure why punishing them is in the interests of the right. Doesn’t that just involve housing them at state expense in jails and prisons?
The concept of social order is missing in your assessment.

There are no “interests of the right” there are interests of society as a whole, one of which includes law and order. Another is the very essential aspect for any society: personal responsibility and accountability.

There is no point in discussing things further. There seems to always be some pretext for taking the next small step into sub-rationality. Go that way if you wish.

I am beginning to think that the accounts of many posters on here have been commandeered by CCP propagandists snickering at their brilliant undermining of common sense, rationality and practical wisdom.

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Where the leftist “progressivists” are heading…

https://andmagazine.com/talk/2020/1...ntroduces-bill-to-legalize-crimes-of-poverty/
If approved, the ordinance would excuse and dismiss, effectively legalizing, misdemeanor crimes committed by any offender who could show:
It was a proposal by one councillor. Which was retracted at the time. And it’s aims are to prevent addicts and the mentaly ill being incarcerated when there are much better options available. And the ‘immediate and basic needs’? If you dig just a little further you’ll find this:

For the purpose of this section a basic need is a commodity or service without which life cannot be sustained.

So if you’re going to freeze to death and you steal a blanket then rather than throw you in the clink, they might use the money spent doing that to solve the problem rather than meting out a punishment.

I guess it was being proposed that they use the money and their resources to try to improve matters as opposed to running around screaming that the sky is falling and building more jails.
 
I am beginning to think that the accounts of many posters on here have been commandeered by CCP propagandists snickering at their brilliant undermining of common sense, rationality and practical wisdom.
Hmmmm that’s the second time this week I’ve been called a communist. Though this time apparently I’m more of a maoist than a stalinist. Odd since I’m a classical liberal. It’s almost like nuance isn’t a thing anymore.
 
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HarryStotle:
I am beginning to think that the accounts of many posters on here have been commandeered by CCP propagandists snickering at their brilliant undermining of common sense, rationality and practical wisdom.
Hmmmm that’s the second time this week I’ve been called a communist. Though this time apparently I’m more of a maoist than a stalinist. Odd since I’m a classical liberal. It’s almost like nuance isn’t a thing anymore.
Heaven only knows where I am on the scale…
 
Poverty and that the crime was committed to meet an “immediate and basic need.”

That could be construed as such, Harry.

In addition, as far as the mentally ill go, I’m not sure why punishing them is in the interests of the right. Doesn’t that just involve housing them at state expense in jails and prisons?
Why would anyone suppose that a good strategy for feeding the hungry is to allow theft from any business without repercussions rather than making food available through food banks or some other controlled method?

No let’s just legalize theft. That will turn out out real well. I am guessing you don’t own a small business in Seattle?

You don’t suppose this will simply lead to a great increase in theft by anyone who has a mind to and who gives the appearance of being in need?

On the other hand, given the defunding of police, social workers will look after things with a more caring hand…


Continued…
 
No let’s just legalize theft. That will turn out out real well. I am guessing you don’t own a small business in Seattle?
Nope, don’t own any businesses. But I am familiar with Catholic social teaching. Would you like me to find the parts about the poor stealing necessary items?
 
You may want to ponder this idea of punishment as being merely an interest of the right and where it leads when the more “humanitarian” left absconds with it.

CS Lewis considered it in an essay called The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment.

An excerpt…
The humanitarian theory removes from punishment the concept of desert. But the concept of desert is the only connecting link between punishment and justice. It is only as deserved or undeserved that a sentence can be just or unjust. I do not here contend that the question “Is it deserved?” is the only one we can reasonably ask about a punishment. We may very properly ask whether it is likely to deter others and to reform the criminal. But neither of these two last questions is a question about justice.
There is no sense in talking about a “just deterrent” or a “just cure”. We demand of a deterrent not whether it is just but whether it will deter. We demand of a cure not whether it is just but whether it succeeds. Thus when we cease to consider what the criminal deserves and consider only what will cure him or deter others, we have tacitly
removed him from the sphere of justice altogether; instead of a person, a subject of rights, we now have a mere object, a patient,
a “case”.
The distinction will become clearer if we ask who will be qualified to determine sentences when sentences are no longer held to derive
their propriety from the criminal’s deservings. On the old view the problem of fixing the right sentence was a moral problem. Accordingly, the judge who did it was a person trained in jurisprudence;
trained, that is, in a science which deals with rights and duties, and which, in origin at least, was consciously accepting guidance from the Law of Nature, and from Scripture. … But the code was never in principle, and not always in fact, beyond the control of
the conscience of the society. And when (say, in eighteenth-century England) actual punishments conflicted too violently with the moral sense of the community, juries refused to convict and reform was
finally brought about. This was possible because, so long as we are thinking in terms of desert, the propriety of the penal code, being a moral question, is a question on which every man has the right to an opinion, not because he follows this or that profession, but because he is simply a man, a rational animal enjoying the Natural Light.
Continued…
 
But all this is changed when we drop the concept of Desert. The only two questions we may now ask about a punishment are whether it deters and whether it cures. But these are not questions on which anyone is entitled to have an opinion simply because he is a man. He is not entitled to an opinion even if, in addition to being a man, he should happen also to be a: jurist, a Christian, and a moral theologian. For they are not questions about principle but about matter of fact; and for such cuiquam in sua arte credendum. Only the expert “penologist” (let barbarous things have barbarous names), in the light of previous experiment, can tell us what is likely to deter: only the psychotherapist can tell us what is likely to cure. It will be in vain for the rest of us, speaking simply as men, to say, “but this punishment is hideously unjust, hideously disproportionate to the criminal’s deserts”. The experts with perfect logic will reply, “But nobody was talking about deserts. No one was talking about punishment in your archaic vindictive sense of the word. Here are the statistics proving that this treatment deters. Here are the statistics proving that this other treatment cures. What is your trouble?”

 
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Okay. So I take it you’re not familiar with what Aquinas said?
I am very familiar and I am very familiar with Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. The way to best comprehend an ethical problem is not in isolation but within the context of the larger picture. It is clear that what Aquinas was speaking of, were individual or particular cases of theft where the motive and desperation of need were present. The leniency shown by a business owner, police officer or judge to an individual is one thing. It isn’t clear that Aquinas was advocating for the wholesale justification of theft on the part of those with a “need” as determined by some vague notion of a current lack of the satisfaction of an immediate desire.

I suggest you read the Lewis article or view the two videos and really think about the big picture of a society based upon a therapeutic view of morality and how that might lead to a dystopian outcome. Especially when combined with a centralized and all-powerful state that has only a relativistic or utilitarian view of ethics. What is “good for” society according to such a state might be radically different from what nominally classical liberals presume will be the outcome.
 
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I suggest you read the Lewis article…
Sorry to say I find Lewis kind of mediocre as a thinker. But thanks for the recommendation.

No one is seeking to justify theft. I for one am simply saying we as a society need to rethink our policy of jailing those who break such laws out of true need or mental disturbance.
 
Not a hint of audacity there. You might want to reel in your self-importance just a tad.
Okay. I find that kind of uncharitable but so be it. I’m sorry if I offended? I don’t find him that great of a thinker. I think he’s overrated. Sue me.

If we’re talking great thinkers and recommending them, may I suggest Romano Guardini and Emmanuel Levinas?
 
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HarryStotle:
Not a hint of audacity there. You might want to reel in your self-importance just a tad.
Okay. I find that kind of uncharitable but so be it. I’m sorry if I offended?
Right, so you are reflexively looking outward instead of inward?

It isn’t “uncharitable” of you to classify one of the most recognized thinkers in the world as “mediocre” but it is to ask whether your competency to make such an assessment warrants a little self-reflection on your part?

And you are sorry to have “offended” me? Why would I be offended? Are you certain you aren’t projecting your own offense?

I have no personal stake in this. I am merely pointing out that your opinion about your capacity to assess Lewis might need some perspective or recalibration. Do with that as you will, but let’s stop with the talk about personal offense.
 
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HarryStotle:
Not a hint of audacity there. You might want to reel in your self-importance just a tad.
Okay. I find that kind of uncharitable but so be it. I’m sorry if I offended? I don’t find him that great of a thinker. I think he’s overrated. Sue me.

If we’re talking great thinkers and recommending them, may I suggest Romano Guardini and Emmanuel Levinas?
Could you explain, in summary, what Lewis’ point was in that excerpt?
 
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HarryStotle:
…one of the most recognized thinkers in the world…
So is Karl Marx. Am I not allowed to criticize the ‘great men’ of the past because they are highly cited?
The way you criticize thinkers is to demonstrate persuasively where their thinking went awry.

It isn’t to make bold claims about their mediocrity.
 
Could you explain, in summary, what Lewis’ point was in that excerpt?
You know what, Harry, you can have Lewis. I bow before his boundless intellect. If you’re going to test me on him, forget it.

I just find it weird because we were having a conversation and you feel the need to come in with a personal attack about self-importance because I’m not a fan of your guy. Oh well.
 
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