Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?

[I_Believe]

(Boldface in quote above is mine)

He attended the TLM in our city once. He had an awful time following the Missal. He said he was lost throughout the Mass. He said he probably won’t go back. To him, the Mass didn’t seem any more reverent than our NO Masses.

** Once ? That is no surprise that he had trouble following the first time. Once isn’t enough to get the hang of it. (bad choice of words, but ykwim)**

I know that all of you who love Latin and TLM and tradition want all the rest of us to experience it the same way you do. But…sorry!–we’re not YOU!

** We invite those to experience it, but we are not trying to force it on anyone. **

I think that we need to respect each other and LOVE each other in our preferences. At this point, BOTH forms of the Mass are approved by the Church. At this point, a great variety of music is allowed by the Church.

** Agreed**

I trust their decisions, because they are the apostles of Jesus Christ Himself.

** That’s fine, but they have not made the change some are proposing. That change is “drop the latin and replace it with the venacular”. Why ? So it is easier to understand ? That simply is not a good reason to change it.

What is frustrating to those who love the TLM isn’t the fact that all Catholics are not jumping on the band wagon. What bothers us is that those who do not understand it’s value and place in the history of the Church want to convince us it would be more “user friendly” if it were said/sung in the venacular.
I’m sorry Cat, non traditional Catholics are welcome to debate us on issues we disagree on. But on this issue, no one has ever offered any reason other than “easier to understand”. And that is a very, very lame reason when compared to any reason we can give to leave it be. Suggesting the substitution of venacular for Latin in the TLM is not only hurtful to those who value the Liturgy of Pius V, but it is also, in fact, a questioning of the prudence of Rome regarding this. There is a reason Rome embraced Latin.

**

 

[japhy]

How do you read or sing responses if you don’t know how to pronounce the words? … I guess I could have tried Spanish pronunciations, since it is a Romance language and I know how to pronounce Spanish words.

Helping you pronounce the words is part of the pastoral duty of making sure the faithful can respond in Latin; it includes helping them pronounce the words properly.

Latin is close to modern Romance languages, of course. I could give you a primer, but of course you could just Google "ecclesiastical latin pronunciation" and see EWTN’s primer.

 

[japhy]

It’s not a problem for me if I go to a TLM, because the servers or choir give the responses. I just follow along in my Missal but do not have to say or sing anything.

Latin NO would be a problem. I could not speak or sing the responses.

Dialogue TLM masses do exist. They were encouraged by Pope Pius XII.

 

[lak611]

Dialogue TLM masses do exist. They were encouraged by Pope Pius XII.

I know they exist, but they are rare. My parents never even heard of them, so they were not common in the pre-V2 era in Cleveland, OH. I never knew they existed until I joined CAF. The TLM’s in my neighbourhood are not dialog Masses.

 

[lak611]

Helping you pronounce the words is part of the pastoral duty of making sure the faithful can respond in Latin; it includes helping them pronounce the words properly.

Latin is close to modern Romance languages, of course. I could give you a primer, but of course you could just Google "ecclesiastical latin pronunciation" and see EWTN’s primer.

Thanks for the links!

 

[Cathryn]

It will be the duty of the Church to teach respect and understanding of liturgical latin. It will be much more common in the Ordinary Form of the Mass as well as the Extraordinary Form.

 

[lak611]

It will be the duty of the Church to teach respect and understanding of liturgical latin. It will be much more common in the Ordinary Form of the Mass as well as the Extraordinary Form.

Well, before we will be able to be taught in my parish, my pastor and parochial vicar have to learn it first. They never learned Latin in the seminary.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I know they exist, but they are rare. My parents never even heard of them, so they were not common in the pre-V2 era in Cleveland, OH. I never knew they existed until I joined CAF. The TLM’s in my neighbourhood are not dialog Masses.

Dialogue Masses were pretty common on Sundays in the years just prior to V 2. The congregation chanted the Asperges (or Vidi Aquam during Easter), Kyrie, Gloria, Gospel Acclamation, Creed, Preface, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei and Final Prayers (Ite, Missa est).

It was relatively easy for our cantor in my cathedral parish to teach the chanted Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei when we started chanting these in Latin during Lent ten years ago. Why? Large numbers of the parish are my age (mid 50s) or older and they’re not afraid to sing. Both of my sons learned and my oldest at 26 wants to learn more.

I know it seems daunting but I’d be willing to bet that there are any number of senior citizens in your parish who remember. (Oy, I don’t feel like a “senior” citizen )

 

[lak611]

Dialogue Masses were pretty common on Sundays in the years just prior to V 2. The congregation chanted the Asperges (or Vidi Aquam during Easter), Kyrie, Gloria, Gospel Acclamation, Creed, Preface, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei and Final Prayers (Ite, Missa est).

It was relatively easy for our cantor in my cathedral parish to teach the chanted Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei when we started chanting these in Latin during Lent ten years ago. Why? Large numbers of the parish are my age (mid 50s) or older and they’re not afraid to sing. Both of my sons learned and my oldest at 26 wants to learn more.

I know it seems daunting but I’d be willing to bet that there are any number of senior citizens in your parish who remember. (Oy, I don’t feel like a “senior” citizen )

Do you expect that the TLM’s that are going to be offered in the future after the Motu Proprio will include a lot of dialog Masses, or will most TLM’s be Low Mass, Missa Cantata and High Mass?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I_Believe

Fine, enjoy the NO. Your call. The Pope has allowed both. He has deemed the NO as the ordinary form.
Show me one post on this fora where myself or anyone else said that.

Read the OP and the arguments presented in this thread.

And that opinion is reason to alter the Mass of the Ages ?

The NO is closer to the Mass of the Early Church, according to the Vatican II documents. Its why Vatican II moved to change it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Do you expect that the TLM’s that are going to be offered in the future after the Motu Proprio will include a lot of dialog Masses, or will most TLM’s be Low Mass, Missa Cantata and High Mass?

Our local indult parish is strictly Low Mass. Since my choir has been singing Latin motets, Gregorian Chant, and various Mass settings as choral preludes, I had every hope that we would be able to offer a sung Solemn High Mass. Unfortunately, our bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. I suspect there is a lot of “behind the scenes arm twisting”. Our pastor is in his early 70s and was ordained before V 2. He is very evasive when I ask when we will get to sing a Solemn High Mass.

 

[I_Believe]

Jim, why are you mis-matching my reply to a section of your post I was not refering to ?
My reply was obviously aimed at what you said below…

Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS
"There is no way you will convince me that hearing the Mass in a language other than the language I speak, is easier, …Jim "

I replied, “Show me one post on this fora where myself or anyone else said that.”

You are ducking the challenge.

I respect your opinions Jim. But please don’t re-arrange my replys and place them where they don’t seem to make sense. To do so is to play games.

You also stated “The NO is closer to the Mass of the Early Church, according to the Vatican II documents. Its why Vatican II moved to change it.”

An argument can indeed be made that the earliest Masses resemble the NO, or vice versa, but VII did not move to change the TLM in the manner you are suggesting.

The suggestion that the TLM be stripped of latin is absurd. And the majority of those who do so simply don’t know why the Church fathers embraced latin in the first place. I’m not studied enough to explain it adequately, but even a simple google search of “History of Ecclesiastical Latin” should help see why the Church retains it.
It wasn’t simply because latin happened to be the language at the time.

And that is exactly how I came to understand it. I googled it, and read enough to get a sense of it’s importance.

Tell you what, I’ll start a new thread. It may not settle the argument but hopefully we will become better informed of the Church Fathers purpose and intent regarding latin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I_Believe

All I can say is, read the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy and you will learn that the TLM was changed by Vatican II.

The first paragraph to the intro says exactly what their intent was;

1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.

also;

II. The Promotion of Liturgical Instruction and Active Participation

1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.

This could not happen under the TLM as it was being celebrated.
Its what drove the Novus Ordo to become the ordinary.

Jim

 

[BobP123]

The first paragraph to the intro says exactly what their intent was;

The Holy Father was present at the Council; he should know what their intent was. That’s why after 40 years we ended up with two forms of the Mass, both fully legit and valid in their current text. Is this a bad thing?

 

[brotherhrolf]

You know, we didn’t have much of a choice back in the 60s. No one asked the Faithful if we wanted to move from the TLM to the NO. We did it out of obedience to HMC. Yes, I could have gone to our indult parish. Yes, I did go once to an SPPX chapel. My conscience was formed before the change to the NO. I’ve gone through 40 years of the NO. I could go back to the Mass of my childhood in a heartbeat.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Holy Father was present at the Council; he should know what their intent was. That’s why after 40 years we ended up with two forms of the Mass, both fully legit and valid in their current text. Is this a bad thing?

Yes, he allows for the extraordinary TLM to be said. However, he doesn’t mandated it, and it doesn’t seem to be growing in the dioceses in the United States. In fact, most Bishops will probably ignore request for it, because they don’t have the priest young enough and trained in it, to do it properly.

Jim

 

[catharina]

The name of this thread makes me smile each time I see it.

“Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?”

As the saying goes “We ain’t dead yet.” Many of us learned all responses to the Latin Mass - and Gregorian Chant - from earliest childhood through our younger adult years. Then the change to the vernacular came. Many of us (around the world!) needn’t learn new responses/chants. We will simply remember the old ones.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The name of this thread makes me smile each time I see it.

“Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?”

As the saying goes “We ain’t dead yet.” Many of us learned all responses to the Latin Mass - and Gregorian Chant - from earliest childhood through our younger adult years. Then the change to the vernacular came. Many of us (around the world!) needn’t learn new responses/chants. We will simply remember the old ones.

Amen! We ain’t dead yet…we’re feeling better!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For me, if the Pope were to mandate that the Mass return to the TLM, it wouldn’t kill me. It would be sad, because I know, many people would stop going to Mass and probably convert toward protestant religions.

My own children, would not like it, never having attended a TLM.

I pray it doesn’t happen, not because I don’t see the TLM as a beautiful Mass, but rather, because the Church will lose people, who for whatever reason, can not follow it.

Jim

 

[mary_bobo]

For me, if the Pope were to mandate that the Mass return to the TLM, it wouldn’t kill me. It would be sad, because I know, many people would stop going to Mass and probably convert toward protestant religions.

My own children, would not like it, never having attended a TLM.

I pray it doesn’t happen, not because I don’t see the TLM as a beautiful Mass, but rather, because the Church will lose people, who for whatever reason, can not follow it.

Jim

Jim, I seriously doubt that the TLM will REPLACE the NO. I think it is nice to have both. Our fellow poster Brotherolf said it nicely in post #95. If the TLM were to replace the TLM, surely those who only know that Mass could adapt just as those of us who were raised on the TLM had to do. But, repeating, total replacement, IMO, will not happen. Those who would use that excuse to leave the Church are suspect, again, IMO.