Will few men be saved?

[mikekle]

When i say be their own God, I simply mean they do as they feel fit and not necessarily according to what they ought to do. Many people prefer to live their lives by their own designs or creations. That is what it means to be your own God. Of course, this is not true for everyone.

There is such a thing as moral ignorance and God does not judge ignorance. God judges the heart of man. In a sense God does not even judge wrong doing. In a sense God does not judge at all. Heaven is a gift that no evil can forfeit if by forfeit one means that God rejects his creation. You go to hell not because God takes away heaven for wrong doing, but rather we reject salvation in our wrong doing; we reject God. We bring judgment upon ourselves by acting against the good that sustains our very being in existence.

To worship God simply means to worship Love. If you live outside of what is good, and do not seek to make amends with the good, then God cannot save you from yourself. Your nature is not identical in nature with love and therefore you can only experience heaven by being in union with the nature of love. You put yourself in hell. Humanbeings are destroying themselves. Thats why one of the central themes of the bible is about mastering the flesh. The less you discipline yourself, the more you will sin, the more you sin the more you be possessed by that sin and the less likely it will be that you will repent with a true heart.

Heaven is not something worked for. If you do good it is because it is what you ought to do. It does not add or take away from the possibility of heaven or hell. It is not a work contract; it is simply what a truly good person would do. A Man can do evil all his life and then give true and honest repentance for his wickedness and still experience heaven despite all the evil done. In most cases a man is so possessed by evil that he never repents and some merely try to hoodwink God with shallow promises and good works not realizing that to worship God is essentially to have a relationship with the nature of Love. God merely asks for true repentance and a true relationship with love, not perfection, and those who cannot give true repentance cannot have God.

You cannot have your cake and eat it.

So what about the person who IS good in their heart, they have no hate for anyone, always choosing to do good things in their life, never harming anyone, etc. BUT they do not go to church, receive the body and blood, not because they hate God or are evil, they just choose not to do those things…If God truly judges whats in their hearts, then only good will be found.

 

[mikekle]

Of course they do, at the moment BEFORE death, not after. After it is done. And St Faustina is perfectly fallible, dont forget that.

Well, we dont know what its like in those last few seconds of our earthly lives, maybe in that state in our consciousness, it seems like hours or days. Even in cases of instant death, there are still those last few milliseconds of our body being alive, where its possible, in that state, it SEEMS like a much longer time period than it really is.

 

[ialsop]

Well, we dont know what its like in those last few seconds of our earthly lives, maybe in that state in our consciousness, it seems like hours or days. Even in cases of instant death, there are still those last few milliseconds of our body being alive, where its possible, in that state, it SEEMS like a much longer time period than it really is.

And that would be great, an IMMENSE mercy from God. But those seconds, that feel like hours, are still BEFORE death. No matter how slowly we approach it(Thanks be to God), once death comes finally, its over.

 

[SonOfMan]

My opinion: i do not believe any living person can know who, or how many, will be saved.

So then you dont believe in the infallible declarations of those who are deemed Saints?

 

[ialsop]

So then you dont believe in the infallible declarations of those who are deemed Saints?

I DO believe those saints, but I want to say something.

They are NOT infallible. They could be all wrong. Maybe. I dont think so. But they are FALLIBLE.

 

[Sarcelle]

Was St. Faustina wrong? She said everyone gets one last chance to choose God (at the moment of death).

Which brings me back to my question: Why would anyone choose eternal suffering when they’re being offered eternal happiness?

Unless it’s a question of pride (the bad kind, the Lucifer getting kicked out of Heaven kind). Maybe accepting God’s mercy and forgiveness requires more humility than some people can muster, even in the face of eternal fire… I wonder.

A lot of people make choices that they know will harm them in the long run. They eat, drink too much, drive drunk, text while driving etc.

 

[SonOfMan]

I DO believe those saints, but I want to say something.

They are NOT infallible. They could be all wrong. Maybe. I dont think so. But they are FALLIBLE.

You may want to review your Catholic teaching on this. They are infallible declarations.

 

[christofirst]

My wife says, yes, but lots of women will be

I think more than a few men will also be saved, directly aided by the love and prayers of many good wives and mothers!

 

[Maxirad]

Check out this piece Jimmy Akin wrote back in 2013.

 

[ialsop]

You may want to review your Catholic teaching on this. They are infallible declarations.

NONONO.

Only the pope is infallible.

Show me, where is this teaching? Where? In what catechism, encyclical, or scripture verse does it say all saint’s declarations are infallible?

Look, anybody can be canonized if they were holy…so we should just take everything any holy person says as infallible???

 

[Pope_St_Leo]

My heart is greatly saddened.

I look at all the Catholics in the Church, and so many of them are discontent with their faith.

Now, they will deny it usually and say: Oh I love my faith!

But when you confront them with the actual teaching of their faith and the teaching of the saints, they are non-plussed, if not repulsed. This shows how so many Catholics have in their hearts, not true faith, but idolatry. The creation of MY OWN particular understanding of Catholic faith.

For example, so many want to believe all unbaotized babies go to heaven, and you point out, the Church has never taught this and in fact dogmatically denies it stating, “All those who die in Original Sin ALONE descend to Hell.” And they are flabbergasted.

Or they hope that all people have some sort of implicit desire to be saved, and will be, because we are not THAT bad, and you point out that the Desire for Baptism certainly can Justify a person, but they must DESIRE it! They must long for the Waters of baptism knowing without them they remain dead in their sins! And yet you would think the very great exception has now become a rule!

My heart breaks, it aches for the Catholics who love Jesus, but they just can’t accept AUTHENTIC Catholic teaching: They can’t accept what the saints have taught, the visions they have seen!

My dear friends, why?

Why can we not keep our souls in a limp and docile state to everything, hard as it may be, that our most glorious Church teaches? What is in modern man that he finds it necessary to reject the Church, to reject the unanimous teaching of the fathers, to reject the saints, and prefer to hope in his own vain reasoning?

My God! What will Christ himself say? What will he do? How will he respond? When he comes to us and asks us: “Did you keep the faith intact? Did you teach your children? Did you live my love, by burning desire for souls? Did you become the fire that I had wished to kindle on the earth?” What shall we say?

Shall we cover our mouths and weep in shame? What will there be for us? WIll there be divine mercy, the blood of Christ engulfing us in the ocean of his serene Bliss:Or will there be justice? WIll there be darkness, the worm and fire?

Forever and ever, we will have to hear the trumpet of Divine Justice resounding through the halls of Hell a single note: “Forever! Forever!”

I don’t say this to shame my dear brothers and sisters, many of whom love Christ in all sincerity and truth:

I say this to shame the arrogant, the proud, the lazy, people such as myself! Why can we not love God? Why can we not love Christ? Why must we day in and day out be smarter than him, more cunning than him, wiser and more refined? Why do we constantly reject the Church?

Why? What is so hard about submitting our wills to the God who loves us and has spoken.

Friends, I fear! I fear for my soul! SO few will be saved:

‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

‘Our chronicles relate an even more dreadful happening. One of our brothers, well-known for his doctrine and holiness, was preaching in Germany. He represented the ugliness of the sin of impurity so forceful that a woman fell dead of sorrow in front of everyone. Then, coming back to life, she said, "When I was presented before the Tribunal of God, sixty thousand people arrived at the same time from all parts of the world; out of that number, three were saved by going to Purgatory, and all the rest were damned.’
St. Leonard of Port Maurice

‘That those who walk in the way of salvation are the smaller number is due to the vice and depraved habits imbibed in youth and nourished in childhood. By these means Lucifer has hurled into Hell so great a number of souls, and continues thus to hurl them into Hell every day, casting so many nations from abyss to abyss of darkness and errors, such as are contained in the heresies and false sects of the infidels.’
Ven. Mary of Agreda

May God be merciful to us and save us from our self-imposed delusions! Mine especially!

 

[mikekle]

** "When I was presented before the Tribunal of God, sixty thousand people arrived at the same time from all parts of the world; out of that number, three were saved by going to Purgatory, and all the rest were damned.’
St. Leonard of Port Maurice**

Geez, reading this, it just made my heart sink to my feet…its likely accurate though, that is extremely frightening!

 

[laircy]

When this is brought up, it is meant to shake us from our complacency and develop a zeal for souls. In this way, it is good. But it might also cause some to despair. How will we ever stand a chance, we think? Thankfully, salvation is not a game of chance! We must decide whether we will accept God’s grace and salvation. It might not be easy, but it is simple.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I think a lot of us, even a many clerics, have a Protestant view of hell. By that I mean the view that some angry God, quick and severe in His punishment, just can’t wait to whack somebody, particularly somebody who doesn’t think like they think.

The Catholic view is really quite different. Everyone who goes to hell chooses to go there, God desires no one to go there. They go of their own volition as evidenced by the choices they make in life based on the knowledge and application of whatever degree of revelation of truth has been given to them. In other words, how they live and apply the truths in their consciences.

Certainly in our time many indeed choose to repudiate the revelation of truth of which they are quite aware but God is not the one who directs those acts, the individual is.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

May God be merciful to us and save us from our self-imposed delusions! Mine especially!

The irony of this statement, given the context of the post that proceeds it, is especially deep.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not here to troll this thread, although it does seem to invite it no? Anyway, your essential question troubled me as well. If God is a good, just, and loving father, why do the writings of the saints about the rarity of salvation bother me so much? Why do most Catholics (including Popes) jump at the chance to minimize the reality of hell? Why do so many clergy seemed ashamed of it? Why do most people seem to totally ignore such a fearsome reality (except when they’re angry about some sleight)? There are many possible answers, but here is mine:

God is good, just, and loves his creatures. There is no eternal hell of endless torment, regret, and suffering. We know this. We know our family members and friends aren’t being tortured forever in hell. God did not create such a place; it has its origin in Greek and near-eastern nightmares and imagination, and has never been a revelation of the true God, may he be praised! Those who have taught it or claimed to have experienced it are superstitious and/or mentally ill, in my opinion. To believe that hell and the Christian concept of Satan are good creations of God is to torture the meaning out of “goodness” or “justice” or any other of the things we attribute to God’s nature. Indeed, this concept has done much psychological damage to western civilization and Islamic civilization, and I think it will ironically be one of the resounding blows that topples the wobbling pillar of the western religion.

Hardly anyone believes in hell because we intuit that God is good and just. God has given all people in every culture and time the ability to know him and do his will. We intuit his laws and know deep within ourselves that he is good and worthy of praise, not a torturer or a miserable failure (loses most of his creatures). Read the Torah with fresh eyes. God is to be respected, praised, and obeyed because he is our creator and we owe him everything. If we do not obey, if we do not praise, if we do not respect, we will lose everything. We have been given a great gift, if we abuse it, he will withdraw that gift and we will be utterly wiped out. This is fair, proportionate, and just. I do not know if this will be the fate of most people, but even if it were, it would still be fair since we are made out of nothing, and it is God’s extraordinary gift of life which sustains us in existence in the first place. We aren’t owed it, and if we get to live in the World to Come, how much more miraculous!

 

[Vico]

That has always boggled my mind. Why would anyone choose not to accept salvation instead of eternal misery?

The evil doer does not like reproval and falls through pride, excessive love of one’s own excellence.

• 18 Pride goeth before destruction: and the spirit is lifted up before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18)
• [7 (http://biblehub.com/john/7-7.htm) The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth: because I give testimony of it, that the works thereof are evil. (John 7:7)
• [19 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-19.htm) And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. [20 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-20.htm) For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. [21 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-21.htm) But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God. (John 3:19-21)

 

[punisherthunder]

I’ve read those quotes and think about this often. While I don’t know/wish/want anyone in Hell for sure, I’d like to think that the number of souls there is zero.

But say that quotes attributed to how few are saved and such, it can make some sense. Look at how some can come to such a conclusion:

• Say that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is true, this would whittle down the number greatly.
• I don’t want to judge or assume, but my friends, our confessional is empty. I attend a huge parish. When I go to confession it lasts an hour. There may be 4 or 5 people the entire hour. But when it’s time to receive the Eucharist, I see nobody asking for a blessing if they haven’t been to confession. Everyone is receiving the Eucharist. Again I don’t want to judge or assume but 4 or 5 people in a major parish like mine? Something tells me people receive the Eucharist while in mortal sin anyways.

It’s a slippery slope. I once heard Fr. Corapi saw in a conference, he said aim for Heaven. Always aim for it. If you come up short, then that’s what Purgatory is for

 

[Vico]

I’ve read those quotes and think about this often. While I don’t know/wish/want anyone in Hell for sure, I’d like to think that the number of souls there is zero.

But say that quotes attributed to how few are saved and such, it can make some sense. Look at how some can come to such a conclusion:

• Say that Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is true, this would whittle down the number greatly.
• I don’t want to judge or assume, but my friends, our confessional is empty. I attend a huge parish. When I go to confession it lasts an hour. There may be 4 or 5 people the entire hour. But when it’s time to receive the Eucharist, I see nobody asking for a blessing if they haven’t been to confession. Everyone is receiving the Eucharist. Again I don’t want to judge or assume but 4 or 5 people in a major parish like mine? Something tells me people receive the Eucharist while in mortal sin anyways.

It’s a slippery slope. I once heard Fr. Corapi saw in a conference, he said aim for Heaven. Always aim for it. If you come up short, then that’s what Purgatory is for

Perhaps for many, there will be final repentance, although unjustified now.

The Church did condemn the doctrine that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation including, in a special way, the devils and lost souls. (Synod of Constantinople, 543 A.D., ratified at the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553 A.D.)

Many are spoken of, in the Bible, that are condemned, and many are identified by Jesus.Matthew 25 41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.Luke 16:31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Matthew 5:17-20 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 26 23 But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. 24 The Son of man indeed goeth, *as it is written of him: but wo to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: It were better for that man if he had not been born. 25 And Judas, that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? he saith to him: Thou hast said it.

* Haydock Commentary on Ver. 23. He that dippeth. He that is associated to me, that eateth bread with me, shall lift up his heel against me, according to the prophecy of the psalmist, cited by St. John, xiii. 18. — Jesus Christ does not here manifest the traitor; he only aggravates the enormity and malice of the crime.

Ver. 25. Is it I, Rabbi? After the other disciples had put their questions, and after our Saviour had finished speaking, Judas at length ventures to inquire of himself. With his usual hypocrisy, he wishes to cloke his wicked designs by asking a similar question with the rest. (Origen) — It is remarkable that Judas did not ask, is it I, Lord? but, is it I, Rabbi? to which our Saviour replied, thou hast said it: which answer might have been spoken in so low a tone of voice, as not perfectly to be heard by all the company. (Rabanus) — Hence it was that Peter beckoned to St. John, to learn more positively the person. Here St. Chrysostom justly remarks the patience and reserve of our Lord, who by his great meekness and self-possession, under the extremes of ingratitude, injustice, and blasphemy, shews how we ought to bear with the malice of others, and forget all personal injuries.
Matthew 23 13 But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter. * Haydock Commentary on Ver. 13. You shut the kingdom of heaven. This is here taken for eternal happiness, which can be obtained only by faith in Christ, since he calls himself the gate. (St. John chap. x) — Now the Pharisees, by refusing to believe in him, and conspiring against him, deterred those, who would otherwise have believed in Christ, from professing his name and following his doctrines, and thus shut the gate of heaven against them. (Nicholas of Lyra.) — In all these reprehensions, it is to be noted, for the honour of the priesthood, Jesus Christ never reprehendeth priests by that name. (St. Cyprian, ep. lxv.)​

 

[tonyrey]

It is absurd to believe the vast majority of God’s children are so diabolical they deserve eternal punishment.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

It is absurd to believe the vast majority of God’s children are so diabolical they deserve eternal punishment.

Indeed. Tell me though, how many fewer than the vast majority can deserve eternal punishment for this belief to flip from “absurd” to “true?”