Will I go to Hell

[benedictus2]

I beg to differ with you, my statement is correct. Do you live where I live? If not then you don’t know this not to be true. Just because it is done where you live doesn’t mean it happens everywhere.
I didn’t say all priests I said where I live at do we understand the words where I live at. Then I asked 3 questions.

1. I wonder why? I got no answer

2 Why don’t the do it? I got no answer

If you are talking about your own millieu, and if there is no one in this thread who is in volunteernig in that nursing home, it is difficult to hazard a guess. It could be because the Catholics there don’t care, have not asked, or don’t know that it is available.

Another could be that you don’t know it is happening when it actually is. You see your focus is on your own kind of proclaiming the Word. Perhaps you should ask around if you are really interested whether there is involvement in that nursing home from the local catholic community.

1. Could it be because its not the proper setting like the church is? I got no answer

I doubt that. Masses have been held in lots of nursing homes.

 

[benedictus2]

Friends in Christ: please do be careful in this thread. In reading some of the responses, folks seeming to be treading closer and closer to a Feeneyist argument and interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Please remember that, as the Second Vatican Council stated in Unitatis Redintegratio:The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.

Further Dominus Iesum reminds us for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit

From this modern Church thought, I take it that one will NOT go to Hell for being outside of the Catholic Church, but one certainly does not have access to all of the wonderful sacraments there, which can only serve to build up our relationship with God.

I think this needs highlighting. This is all linked to the Mass which is offered not simply for Catholics but for all.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Friend:

Thank you so much for your response. Please back up your statements with bible references. Catholic doctrine is not Christ’s doctrine.

But it is Christ’s doctrine because she was established by Christ. For Bible reference refere to Matthew 16:13-19 and Acts.
I also gave a timetable of the Catholic Church form Pentecost onwards a few pages before.

Since you seem to know much more than me, could you please show me where praying to saints and Mary worship is in the bible?

Aahh but see there again is your ignorance. We do not worship Mary. We venerate her.

In the Magnificat (Luke 1:48) Mary proclaims all generations will call her blessed.
Also, when we address Mary and the saints we don’t really pray to them, we ask them to pray for us.

The Hail Mary:

The first part (All in Luke Chapter 1)
Hail Mary Full of Grace
The Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

The second part (our entreaty)
Holy Mary mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hours of our death.
Amen.

As for praying to the saints here is an articule to help you understand this.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
But just a quick one. You pray for others don;t you? And you ask others to pray for you? Why do you do that? What makes you think that their prayers are important. isn’t your own prayer to Jesus enough by itself.

Also, when you pray for others, what makes you so sure that God will hear your prayers for them. Shouldn’t they be praying for themselves instead?

Would appreciate your reply on that one.

I’ve looked and couldn’t find it - in the bible which is God’s word.

And this is what I always ask people which they don’t seem to have the answer for maybe you will be better than them:
How do you know that it is indeed the Word of God? You cannot answer with “Because the Bible says so” because that is fallacious - circular reasoning.

So I would like to know your answer.

Also, do you know how the Bible came to us?

I’m open to correction, friend, provide me with answers - from the bible.

First, you have to answer my question above. You have to tell me why you think the Bible is the authority. The Bible does not even claim to be so.

Thanks and many blessings to you!

Peace and joy of Christ to you as well. And may Our Blessed Mother lead you closer to her Son.

 

[benedictus2]

Thank you!!! I guess everyone else didn’t read this. Heaven is obtainable outside the Catholic Church.

May God Bless!

Ed

And that is true. But in the end all who go to heaven will do so because of the Catholic Church.

Take your Bible for example. You know Jesus because of the Bible. Well the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. So if you know Jesus through the Bible, then you know jesus only because of the Catholic Church. And this is how Jesuc intended it to be, becuase this is the Church that he established.

But ask yourself this: Since Christ has already established His own Church, why would you want to join or remain in one started by mere men?

 

[benedictus2]

Be free of any guilt you feel regarding your choice to follow the Lord. Listen to His voice.

Be free of any guilt? I am not so sure about that. If you are leaving Christ’s church because you want to be entertatined during worship,. well that sounds like self idolatry to me.

 

[benedictus2]

We seek God and Him Alone. God has joined us with Him yet you continue to deny we are His. He has given us His Spirit as a proof a gaurentee that we are His. We left out of her to be joined with Him thus making us the true Church of Christ.

Well not quite. You don’t get to determine which one is Christ’s true church. Only Jesus has that prerogative. And he was very clear about which one His church is. It is the Catholic Church. The Bible supports this. History supports this. So leaving her means leaving Christ’s church.

I know you want to convince yourself of your interpretation because it is unthinkable that you could have been so wrong. But there is just no getting away from that You were wrong. And insist on remaining in the wrong church.

We have submitted to Him and are His thus in the day of judgement God will say well done my good and faithfull servant.

Submitting to His will means submitting to ALL THAT HE HAS WILLED. But you have not done that. You reject something that He has very clearly WILLED in the Bible. And that is the Catholic Church.

It puzzles me why in spite of the evidence to the contrary you still maintain that you are in his Church. Mind you, again I am not saying that you will not be saved. Just that you are not in His Church.

 

[ronin67]

It puzzles me why in spite of the evidence to the contrary you still maintain that you are in his Church. Mind you, again I am not saying that you will not be saved. Just that you are not in His Church.

Good I’m glad your saying we might be saved (I was concerned for a second). Isn’t that the Goal anyway? To be saved? Does it matter if I’m in your church, if I’m still saved by the belief and acceptance of Christ Jesus as my savior? You say the Catholic Church is the one true Church, yet I may and can still be saved through the Grace of God? If I’m saved by accepting Christ as my Lord and savior, by the great Grace of God my Father, then why keep throwing I’m not a member of the one true church in mine and everyones face? Does it make sense? My goal is to get saved thru Christ Jesus, by the grace of God. If I got it, I got it. God only knows, not the humans who run the Catholic Church or any Christian church who claims exclusive rights as the one true church. You make it sound like a college fraternity. Even if I’m not in your Church, I’m with the love/grace that God extended to me, thru my accepting of Jesus as my savior. Do I need anything else?

Merry Christmas from me and the others who side with the Grace of God or any church for that matter.

Ronin

 

[benedictus2]

Good I’m glad your saying we might be saved (I was concerned for a second). Isn’t that the Goal anyway? To be saved? Does it matter if I’m in your church, if I’m still saved by the belief and acceptance of Christ Jesus as my savior?

Yes, because Christ does not do unnecessary things.He did not establish a Church just so every Tom Dick and Harry can start their own man made church.

If you are true blue about your claim that you are following Christ then you will be in His Church. Otherwise, your claim just does not hold water.

You say the Catholic Church is the one true Church, yet I may and can still be saved through the Grace of God? If I’m saved by accepting Christ as my Lord and savior, by the great Grace of God my Father, then why keep throwing I’m not a member of the one true church in mine and everyones face? Does it make sense? My goal is to get saved thru Christ Jesus, by the grace of God. If I got it, I got it. God only knows, not the humans who run the Catholic Church.

Yes it does. As I said before, if you are saved, you are saved because of the Catholic church becuase this is the way He willed it. Other wise He would not have WILLED a Church into existence.

This really calls into question your claims of following Christ when you clearly are not. Otherwise, you will follow something so clearly WILLED BY HIM,

And if you think beyond this life, all the other churches will cease to exist. The Catholic Church becuase it is the Body of Christ will continue on till eternity. You see, the Catholic Church is not us here strugling on earth but it includes those in heaven and in purgatory as well. It includes all who have been saved and are being saved.

So if you get to heaven, when you get there you will be Catholic. You will then realize what we have been saying for sometime now, that the Catholic Church’s doctrines are true becaue they derive from Christ.

So ask yourself, why? Why are you not in His Church if you claim to love Him and to follow Him? Isn’t that really a case of following yourself rather than Him?
Merry Christmas from me and the others who side with the Grace of God.

Ronin

Joy and Peace to you as well!

 

[elvisman]

YOU ARE OUT OF LINE elvisman when you said "probably better if you minded your own business. How many times have you butted into others conversations and you have the gull to tell this person to MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS. Such a good God fearing man you are. Using terminolgy like this is not helping the Catholics here on this forum. It just tells us that this is the way Catholics are, rude and insensitive.

I said, “Probably better if you minded your own business”, because Jars_of_Clay was blaming me for taking the conversation to another topic.
Now, YOU’RE doing the very same thing he did.
Gee, while we’re at it - probably better if you minded your own business . . .

 

[elvisman]

We seek God and Him Alone. God has joined us with Him yet you continue to deny we are His. He has given us His Spirit as a proof a gaurentee that we are His. We left out of her to be joined with Him thus making us the true Church of Christ. We have submitted to Him and are His thus in the day of judgement God will say well done my good and faithfull servant.

No - you divorced yourself from him when you refused to be joined with him.
Remember - Jesus equates Himself with his Church (Acts 9:4-5).
**When you reject his Church - you reject him.
**
I didn’t say these things - Jesus did. I didn’t make the rules - he did.
If you have a problem with it - take it to him.

 

[elvisman]

I am home and part of the true Church of God. He has given Himself to us and we will not deny Him to please you.

Unless you’re Catholic - you are divorced from his Church. He only established ONE Church not tens of thousands.
Sorry, but that’s a fact.**

 

[elvisman]

Hi friend. Oh, such a warm and wonderful greeting for newcomer. Very sad.

Actually, I have a question for the original poster of the question, “Will I go to hell if I leave the Catholic church?”

Have you found your answer in this thread?

You really need to hold yourself to the same standard that you demand of others, my confused friend.

As for the answer to this post - I believe the answer has been presented several times.

I laid it all out in post #492, where I explained Invincible Ignorance. Perhaps you should have read the post before accusing me of taking the thread to another topic.

Like I said, I realize you’re now here - but that’s how things are done. READ the posts, THEN answer . . .

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

But it is Christ’s doctrine because she was established by Christ. For Bible reference refere to Matthew 16:13-19 and Acts.
I also gave a timetable of the Catholic Church form Pentecost onwards a few pages before.

Aahh but see there again is your ignorance. We do not worship Mary. We venerate her.

In the Magnificat (Luke 1:48) Mary proclaims all generations will call her blessed.
Also, when we address Mary and the saints we don’t really pray to them, we ask them to pray for us.

The Hail Mary:

The first part (All in Luke Chapter 1)
Hail Mary Full of Grace
The Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

The second part (our entreaty)
Holy Mary mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hours of our death.
Amen.

As for praying to the saints here is an articule to help you understand this.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
But just a quick one. You pray for others don;t you? And you ask others to pray for you? Why do you do that? What makes you think that their prayers are important. isn’t your own prayer to Jesus enough by itself.

Also, when you pray for others, what makes you so sure that God will hear your prayers for them. Shouldn’t they be praying for themselves instead?

Would appreciate your reply on that one.

And this is what I always ask people which they don’t seem to have the answer for maybe you will be better than them:
How do you know that it is indeed the Word of God? You cannot answer with “Because the Bible says so” because that is fallacious - circular reasoning.

So I would like to know your answer.

Also, do you know how the Bible came to us?

First, you have to answer my question above. You have to tell me why you think the Bible is the authority. The Bible does not even claim to be so.

Peace and joy of Christ to you as well. And may Our Blessed Mother lead you closer to her Son.

Hey there:

Folks I really wish everyone here would stop name-calling. I am not ignorant friend, we have different belief systems. Let’s have a civilized discussion, ok?

Praying to the virgin Mary and other saints for that matter. I have been told by Catholics to pray to Mary for favors (cars, money, material things). This is what I have been told, friend. I have found that as soon as I say to a Catholic, guys listen, you’re praying to an idol you say - no we’re not, it’s veneration. Yet I see it all the time, flowers brought to statues, money attached to statues, I’ve even seen food brought the idol of Mary. I’m not going to argue with you - I’m telling you what I see and what I’ve been told. AND what I have personally been encouraged to do as a former Catholic. I’m not saying YOU personally do this - I’m telling you that I see this done in Catholic churches in my neighborhood and around the world (I’ve done missions to South America).

Yes, I do pray with and for other people - I don’t pray to other people and I don’t pray to saints or Mary. When we pray together - we pray to the Lord. James 5:16 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. We are also encouraged to pray in solitary. Do you want bible references for that?

You don’t believe that the bible is the Word of God? What do you believe - it’s a fairy tale? I’ve actually been told that by a Catholic priest. Sad, wouldn’t you agree?. If it weren’t the word of God, than what are we doing on this forum arguing anything?

How do I know the bible is the word of God? To me this statement is enough to verify that the Bible (Scripture) is the authority over all of us. There is no book other book in this world that is God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Did I say Mary wasn’t blessed? I don’t believe so. I don’t pray to her. I pray to the Lord. I’m not sure I can find in the bible that it says, pray to Mary or even venerate her. I did not yet read your article, but I will. I appreciate you providing me with the link.

How do I know the Lord hears my prayers and those I pray with? Without even referencing the bible - my prayers have been answered. I was partially blind in one eye and my vision was restored. Instantly. Only one example.

Do I know how the bible came to us? The bible is two testaments inspired by God written by prophets and followers of Jesus. It was first the spoken word, then written.

I think I I’ve addressed all your questions, no? Let me know, in a civilized manner, and I’ll be happy to answer what I can to the best of my ability.

The virgin Mary doesn’t have to lead me closer to the Father. She doesn’t have the capability to do that. And I am close to the Lord and pray that he draws me nearer to him everyday. I pray the same for you.

 

[elvisman]

So, you are saying when He says “The son of man is Lord of the Sabbath” that He is saying that the Sabbath is not important and that He the son of man is Lord over this unimportant day. And you call my reasoning convoluted. He was rebuking the Pharisees, But He was rebuking them for placing a burden on the Sabbath day that God had never intended. Luke 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

**When Jesus told the Pharisees that he was Lord even of the Sabbath – he was telling them that he was Lord over ALL. He is not subject to the Sabbath and chose NOT to be resurrected on the Sabbath but on a NEW day, signifying a ****NEW ****Covenant. Unfortunately, Sabbatarians like yourself have chosen to reject Jesus’ plan because you don’t understand what he did.
**

What He said was Mark2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Look at it carefully. Because the Sabbath was made for man and the son of man (Jesus) is Lord of man, He is also Lord of the Sabbath. Which makes the Lord’s day the Sabbath. No way getting around it brother.

This is a reference to Gen2: 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

You see God doesn’t bless something for Himself He blesses it for us. Now do you really think that God needed to rest after He finished creating. Of coarse He didn’t. It says God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. You have to remember that God had created man the day before this, so, the first thing that man does after he is created is rest with God. This scenario makes me think that there is more to this Sabbath rest than taking a nap Sabbath afternoon. Sure enough Isaiah 58:13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The Sabbath was never meant to be a burden. It is a time for us to DELIGHT THYSELF IN THE LORD.

Again – Jesus, the New Covenant** FULFILLED**** the Law. EVERYTHING was changed because of him. The Sabbath as the 7th day is symbolic. The Sabbath as the**** Lord’s Day**** is what we are to uphold.
If Jesus was resurrected on a Tuesday, then it would have changed to Tuesday.
**

So, I take it by your little insult here that you wish to end our little discoarse. Right?

Not at all. Just get your facts** straight****.**

 

[Janet1983]

Hey there:

Folks I really wish everyone here would stop name-calling. I am not ignorant friend, we have different belief systems. Let’s have a civilized discussion, ok?

Praying to the virgin Mary and other saints for that matter. I have been told by Catholics to pray to Mary for favors (cars, money, material things). This is what I have been told, friend. I have found that as soon as I say to a Catholic, guys listen, you’re praying to an idol you say - no we’re not, it’s veneration. Yet I see it all the time, flowers brought to statues, money attached to statues, I’ve even seen food brought the idol of Mary. I’m not going to argue with you - I’m telling you what I see and what I’ve been told. AND what I have personally been encouraged to do as a former Catholic. I’m not saying YOU personally do this - I’m telling you that I see this done in Catholic churches in my neighborhood and around the world (I’ve done missions to South America).

Yes, I do pray with and for other people - I don’t pray to other people and I don’t pray to saints or Mary. When we pray together - we pray to the Lord. James 5:16 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. We are also encouraged to pray in solitary. Do you want bible references for that?

You don’t believe that the bible is the Word of God? What do you believe - it’s a fairy tale? I’ve actually been told that by a Catholic priest. Sad, wouldn’t you agree?. If it weren’t the word of God, than what are we doing on this forum arguing anything?

How do I know the bible is the word of God? To me this statement is enough to verify that the Bible (Scripture) is the authority over all of us. There is no book other book in this world that is God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Did I say Mary wasn’t blessed? I don’t believe so. I don’t pray to her. I pray to the Lord. I’m not sure I can find in the bible that it says, pray to Mary or even venerate her. I did not yet read your article, but I will. I appreciate you providing me with the link.

How do I know the Lord hears my prayers and those I pray with? Without even referencing the bible - my prayers have been answered. I was partially blind in one eye and my vision was restored. Instantly. Only one example.

Do I know how the bible came to us? The bible is two testaments inspired by God written by prophets and followers of Jesus. It was first the spoken word, then written.

I think I I’ve addressed all your questions, no? Let me know, in a civilized manner, and I’ll be happy to answer what I can to the best of my ability.

The virgin Mary doesn’t have to lead me closer to the Father. She doesn’t have the capability to do that. And I am close to the Lord and pray that he draws me nearer to him everyday. I pray the same for you.

Amen.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hey there:

Folks I really wish everyone here would stop name-calling. I am not ignorant friend, we have different belief systems. Let’s have a civilized discussion, ok?

Praying to the virgin Mary and other saints for that matter. I have been told by Catholics to pray to Mary for favors (cars, money, material things). This is what I have been told, friend. I have found that as soon as I say to a Catholic, guys listen, you’re praying to an idol you say - no we’re not, it’s veneration. Yet I see it all the time, flowers brought to statues, money attached to statues, I’ve even seen food brought the idol of Mary. I’m not going to argue with you - I’m telling you what I see and what I’ve been told. AND what I have personally been encouraged to do as a former Catholic. I’m not saying YOU personally do this - I’m telling you that I see this done in Catholic churches in my neighborhood and around the world (I’ve done missions to South America).

Yes, I do pray with and for other people - I don’t pray to other people and I don’t pray to saints or Mary. When we pray together - we pray to the Lord. James 5:16 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. We are also encouraged to pray in solitary. Do you want bible references for that?

You don’t believe that the bible is the Word of God? What do you believe - it’s a fairy tale? I’ve actually been told that by a Catholic priest. Sad, wouldn’t you agree?. If it weren’t the word of God, than what are we doing on this forum arguing anything?

How do I know the bible is the word of God? To me this statement is enough to verify that the Bible (Scripture) is the authority over all of us. There is no book other book in this world that is God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Did I say Mary wasn’t blessed? I don’t believe so. I don’t pray to her. I pray to the Lord. I’m not sure I can find in the bible that it says, pray to Mary or even venerate her. I did not yet read your article, but I will. I appreciate you providing me with the link.

How do I know the Lord hears my prayers and those I pray with? Without even referencing the bible - my prayers have been answered. I was partially blind in one eye and my vision was restored. Instantly. Only one example.

Do I know how the bible came to us? The bible is two testaments inspired by God written by prophets and followers of Jesus. It was first the spoken word, then written.

I think I I’ve addressed all your questions, no? Let me know, in a civilized manner, and I’ll be happy to answer what I can to the best of my ability.

The virgin Mary doesn’t have to lead me closer to the Father. She doesn’t have the capability to do that. And I am close to the Lord and pray that he draws me nearer to him everyday. I pray the same for you.

When I was a young man years ago I would ask my Mother if I can get the car this weekend, I did not ask my Father because I knew My Mother take care of that and she ask my father.By asking my Mother MY Father got me the car. IT works,try ask ing your Mother and see if your Father will not help you

 

[elvisman]

Hey there:

Folks I really wish everyone here would stop name-calling. I am not ignorant friend, we have different belief systems. Let’s have a civilized discussion, ok?

Praying to the virgin Mary and other saints for that matter. I have been told by Catholics to pray to Mary for favors (cars, money, material things). This is what I have been told, friend. I have found that as soon as I say to a Catholic, guys listen, you’re praying to an idol you say - no we’re not, it’s veneration. Yet I see it all the time, flowers brought to statues, money attached to statues, I’ve even seen food brought the idol of Mary. I’m not going to argue with you - I’m telling you what I see and what I’ve been told. AND what I have personally been encouraged to do as a former Catholic. I’m not saying YOU personally do this - I’m telling you that I see this done in Catholic churches in my neighborhood and around the world (I’ve done missions to South America).

Yes, I do pray with and for other people - I don’t pray to other people and I don’t pray to saints or Mary. When we pray together - we pray to the Lord. James 5:16 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. We are also encouraged to pray in solitary. Do you want bible references for that?

You don’t believe that the bible is the Word of God? What do you believe - it’s a fairy tale? I’ve actually been told that by a Catholic priest. Sad, wouldn’t you agree?. If it weren’t the word of God, than what are we doing on this forum arguing anything?

How do I know the bible is the word of God? To me this statement is enough to verify that the Bible (Scripture) is the authority over all of us. There is no book other book in this world that is God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Did I say Mary wasn’t blessed? I don’t believe so. I don’t pray to her. I pray to the Lord. I’m not sure I can find in the bible that it says, pray to Mary or even venerate her. I did not yet read your article, but I will. I appreciate you providing me with the link.

How do I know the Lord hears my prayers and those I pray with? Without even referencing the bible - my prayers have been answered. I was partially blind in one eye and my vision was restored. Instantly. Only one example.

Do I know how the bible came to us? The bible is two testaments inspired by God written by prophets and followers of Jesus. It was first the spoken word, then written.

I think I I’ve addressed all your questions, no? Let me know, in a civilized manner, and I’ll be happy to answer what I can to the best of my ability.

The virgin Mary doesn’t have to lead me closer to the Father. She doesn’t have the capability to do that. And I am close to the Lord and pray that he draws me nearer to him everyday. I pray the same for you.

WRONG**.**
Unfortunately, you don’t understand the Body of Christ nor do you understand the historic Christian faith. People like you reject petitioning those who have gone before us because you assume they are dead. They are MORE alive than you or I, friend, because they have been made PERFECT in Christ – something that we can only hope for. James 5:16 tells us that the fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Those in heaven have been made perfectly righteous. How many perfectly righteous people do you know here on earth? Hmmmm . . . that’s what I thought.

---

You ask those on earth to pray for you. Asking a brother or sister in heaven - a part of the Body of Christ is not only “okay” - it’s a VERY GOOD thing to do.

---

Furthermore, Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 12 that we are ALL different parts of the SAME Body.
In Heb 12:1, he tells us to behave accordingly because there is “so great a cloud of witnesses.”
A witness sees and hears – otherwise he/she is NOT a witness.
As for your total misunderstanding of sin and forgiveness, John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 BOTH tell us that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive OR retain sins – in heaven AND on earth. Jesus DIDN’T mince words.**

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Paul tells us in 2 Cor. 2:10-11 that HE forgave sins against the members of the Body – in the presence of Christ.
He goes on to say in 2 Cor. 5:18-20 that God gave the ministry of Reconciliation to the Church.

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Study the Scriptures and maybe the scales of spiritual blindness will fall from your eyes.**

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

WRONG**.**
Unfortunately, you don’t understand the Body of Christ nor do you understand the historic Christian faith. People like you reject petitioning those who have gone before us because you assume they are dead. They are MORE alive than you or I, friend, because they have been made PERFECT in Christ – something that we can only hope for. James 5:16 tells us that the fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Those in heaven have been made perfectly righteous. How many perfectly righteous people do you know here on earth? Hmmmm . . . that’s what I thought.

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You ask those on earth to pray for you. Asking a brother or sister in heaven - a part of the Body of Christ is not only “okay” - it’s a VERY GOOD thing to do.

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Furthermore, Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 12 that we are ALL different parts of the SAME Body.
In Heb 12:1, he tells us to behave accordingly because there is “so great a cloud of witnesses.”
A witness sees and hears – otherwise he/she is NOT a witness.
As for your total misunderstanding of sin and forgiveness, John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 BOTH tell us that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive OR retain sins – in heaven AND on earth. Jesus DIDN’T** mince words.

---

Paul tells us in 2 Cor. 2:10-11 that HE forgave sins against the members of the Body – in the presence of Christ.
He goes on to say in 2 Cor. 5:18-20 that God gave the ministry of Reconciliation to the Church.

---

Study the Scriptures and maybe** the scales of spiritual blindness will fall from your eyes.

Dearest Elvisman: You were the person who gave me such a warm welcome in one of my first posts, by telling me to mind my own business, yet you chose to butt into this conversation that I had with someone else who asked me specific questions. May I make a suggestion to you? Be the example you want to see happen in this Forum.

You comments and attitude remind me of the Pharisees. You seem to feed and thrive off negativity rather than having a calm, intelligent exchange of words. So rant as much as you want - it doesn’t make you correct.

Any comment that I see you post on this forum that is unkind or condescending that is specifically addressed to me, I will apply Proverbs 14:7 - Stay away from a foolish man, for you will not find knowledge on his lips.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

When I was a young man years ago I would ask my Mother if I can get the car this weekend, I did not ask my Father because I knew My Mother take care of that and she ask my father.By asking my Mother MY Father got me the car. IT works,try ask ing your Mother and see if your Father will not help you

I appreciate your example, but it doesn’t work for me. Because I know I can go directly to my earthly father and ask the same question. Asking my mother would not change the outcome. And I mean that spiritually too.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I appreciate your example, but it doesn’t work for me. Because I know I can go directly to my earthly father and ask the same question. Asking my mother would not change the outcome. And I mean that spiritually too.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Thank You