Will I go to Hell

[Richard_Kastner]

originally posted by Elvisman
Are you for real?
Do you have the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation because if you don’t – I apologize for assuming that you did.

YOU are the one who says they were not apostles until AFTER the Last Supper.
I have PROVEN to you that they were called Apostles WAY before this. Read my post #338 where I slammed you with no less than SIX verses that prove my point (Matt. 10:2, Mark 3:14, Mark 6:30, Luke 6:13, Luke 9:10, Luke 17:5).

No read very slowl*y so you’ll understand what I’ve been telling you:

originally posted by rev kevin
The 12 apostles…I agreed with you.
Now read very slowl*y so you will understand that I ageed with you except the defination of a disciple and apostle. That is what started the crud, a defination
disciples, learner
apostle, teacher
The 12 both
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???

Wow, I’ve seen some pretty heated discussions/arguments on this forum between people that disagree with one another, but I don’t think that I have every seen such venom between people that basically agree with one another. Maybe it’s time to step back take a deep breath and contemplate the fact that when you post such caustic remarks at one another. You are posting them to Jesus.

Matt25: 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

For what it’s worth, I looked up disciple and apostle and this is what I got.

Disciple - Mathetes

1. a learner, pupil, disciple

Apostle - Apostolos

1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
   a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
   b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
2. of Barnabas
3. of Timothy and Silvanus

So it seems to me that apostles are alway disciples but disciples are not apostles untill they are sent by God.

Jn8: 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
When we continue in the word of God we are disciples indeed and not just with our mouths. When we step forth and accept the challenge of the great commission, Matt.28: 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

we become apostles of Jesus.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

You are soooooooooooo right!

Thank you for those calming words. This really did get out of hand

originally posted by Elvisman
Are you for real?
Do you have the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation because if you don’t – I apologize for assuming that you did.

YOU are the one who says they were not apostles until AFTER the Last Supper.
I have PROVEN to you that they were called Apostles WAY before this. Read my post #338 where I slammed you with no less than SIX verses that prove my point (Matt. 10:2, Mark 3:14, Mark 6:30, Luke 6:13, Luke 9:10, Luke 17:5).

No read very slowl*y so you’ll understand what I’ve been telling you:

originally posted by rev kevin
The 12 apostles…I agreed with you.
Now read very slowl*y so you will understand that I ageed with you except the defination of a disciple and apostle. That is what started the crud, a defination
disciples, learner
apostle, teacher
The 12 both
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???

Wow, I’ve seen some pretty heated discussions/arguments on this forum between people that disagree with one another, but I don’t think that I have every seen such venom between people that basically agree with one another. Maybe it’s time to step back take a deep breath and contemplate the fact that when you post such caustic remarks at one another. You are posting them to Jesus.

Matt25: 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

For what it’s worth, I looked up disciple and apostle and this is what I got.

Disciple - Mathetes

1. a learner, pupil, disciple

Apostle - Apostolos

1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
   a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
   b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
2. of Barnabas
3. of Timothy and Silvanus

So it seems to me that apostles are alway disciples but disciples are not apostles untill they are sent by God.

Jn8: 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
When we continue in the word of God we are disciples indeed and not just with our mouths. When we step forth and accept the challenge of the great commission, Matt.28: 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

we become apostles of Jesus.

As I recall, the Disciples had gotten into an argument about who would be the greatest… and Christ rebuked them for their vanity and lack of charity (Luke 9:46-48)
48
An argument arose among the disciples about which of them was the greatest.
47
Jesus realized the intention of their hearts and took a child and placed it by his side
48
and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. For the one who is least among all of you is the one who is the greatest.”

There is still a lesson or two in these verses…

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

Hi, P101,

Benedictus2 actually gives some of the best answers around … but, I looked and did not cathch where your question was answered… so, I thought I would pitch in…

Hey; I appreciated your answers above; and I will have more to say later, maybe tomorrow. But in regards to benedictus2, well; if it came from her; I would accept the “coal.”

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Elvisman,

I really do not know what is going on, but, this is not the way you usually post. Notwithstanding your view on this topic, it looks to me like charity is taking a beating…

Kevin - wake up and READ the Scriptures in CONTEXT:

Luke 22:14
(The Last Supper)
When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.

You keep saying that the Apostles weren’t present at the Last Supper.
WHY would you say that?
You’re DEAD wrong.

Hey, maybe it is time to just step away from the keyboard for a while… try some different coping skills… and just move on.

God bless

 

[elvisman]

Hi, Elvisman,

I really do not know what is going on, but, this is not the way you usually post. Notwithstanding your view on this topic, it looks to me like charity is taking a beating…

Hey, maybe it is time to just step away from the keyboard for a while… try some different coping skills… and just move on.

God bless

Noted.
Debating sometimes gets heated - especially when you’re speaking to somebody who changes their position every other post.

 

[elvisman]

originally posted by Elvisman
Are you for real?
Do you have the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation because if you don’t – I apologize for assuming that you did.

YOU are the one who says they were not apostles until AFTER the Last Supper.
I have PROVEN to you that they were called Apostles WAY before this. Read my post #338 where I slammed you with no less than SIX verses that prove my point (Matt. 10:2, Mark 3:14, Mark 6:30, Luke 6:13, Luke 9:10, Luke 17:5).

No read very slowl*y so you’ll understand what I’ve been telling you:

originally posted by rev kevin
The 12 apostles…I agreed with you.
Now read very slowl*y so you will understand that I ageed with you except the defination of a disciple and apostle. That is what started the crud, a defination
disciples, learner
apostle, teacher
The 12 both
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???

Wow, I’ve seen some pretty heated discussions/arguments on this forum between people that disagree with one another, but I don’t think that I have every seen such venom between people that basically agree with one another. Maybe it’s time to step back take a deep breath and contemplate the fact that when you post such caustic remarks at one another. You are posting them to Jesus.

Matt25: 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

For what it’s worth, I looked up disciple and apostle and this is what I got.

Disciple - Mathetes

1. a learner, pupil, disciple

Apostle - Apostolos

1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
   a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
   b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
2. of Barnabas
3. of Timothy and Silvanus

So it seems to me that apostles are alway disciples but disciples are not apostles untill they are sent by God.

Jn8: 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
When we continue in the word of God we are disciples indeed and not just with our mouths. When we step forth and accept the challenge of the great commission, Matt.28: 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

we become apostles of Jesus.

Whereas we are all ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20) and are always his disciples – we are NOT Apostles (1 Cor. 12:29).

 

[rev_kevin]

I find this reply interesting. You say we will never agree. I am sure you feel the same way about the other’s posts, but you bother to at least post rebuttal.

How about we go 1 item at a time on what you disagree with?

I believe there is objective truth, i.e. truth that is not determined by our opinion. Somethng that we can established by rational thought processes.

So really, for earnest searchers of truth, “agree to disagree” is a cop out.

Ok lets go 1 item at at time. You start.

 

[rev_kevin]

Noted.
Debating sometimes gets heated - especially when you’re speaking to somebody who changes their position every other post.

I have not changed my position. In post 322 you said I can’t dicipher the use of the words apostles and disciples.
In post 338 I gave you the definitions
In post 392 I gave you 3 definitions of disciple and apostle.
In post 329 I should have used the word “officially” apostles yet.
In most of my posts I agreed with you. The only thing we disagree with is the last supper where my bible says disciples. We also disagree with the definition of apostle and disciple. I have given you scripture that says both disciple and apostle, as a matter of fact they were the ones you gave me and I defined them which agreed with you. They were both disciples and apostles but I guess I should have said that instead of showing you a definition that agreed with you. Can’t you see that we have been agreeing all along.

 

[rev_kevin]

originally posted by Elvisman
Are you for real?
Do you have the ability to carry on an intelligent conversation because if you don’t – I apologize for assuming that you did.

YOU are the one who says they were not apostles until AFTER the Last Supper.
I have PROVEN to you that they were called Apostles WAY before this. Read my post #338 where I slammed you with no less than SIX verses that prove my point (Matt. 10:2, Mark 3:14, Mark 6:30, Luke 6:13, Luke 9:10, Luke 17:5).

No read very slowl*y so you’ll understand what I’ve been telling you:

originally posted by rev kevin
The 12 apostles…I agreed with you.
Now read very slowl*y so you will understand that I ageed with you except the defination of a disciple and apostle. That is what started the crud, a defination
disciples, learner
apostle, teacher
The 12 both
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???

Wow, I’ve seen some pretty heated discussions/arguments on this forum between people that disagree with one another, but I don’t think that I have every seen such venom between people that basically agree with one another. Maybe it’s time to step back take a deep breath and contemplate the fact that when you post such caustic remarks at one another. You are posting them to Jesus.

Matt25: 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

For what it’s worth, I looked up disciple and apostle and this is what I got.

Disciple - Mathetes

1. a learner, pupil, disciple

Apostle - Apostolos

1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
   a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
   b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
2. of Barnabas
3. of Timothy and Silvanus

So it seems to me that apostles are alway disciples but disciples are not apostles untill they are sent by God.

Jn8: 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
When we continue in the word of God we are disciples indeed and not just with our mouths. When we step forth and accept the challenge of the great commission, Matt.28: 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

we become apostles of Jesus.

Thats what I have been saying all along but he couldn’t see that for some reason.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hi, Rev Kevin

I guess my age is catching up with me, Rev Kevin … but, I found the way you posted your remarks rather difficult to follow so that I could understand what it is you are saying. It has been my experience that when this happens a lot of mis-understanding get needlessly generated. And, no body wants that, eh?

Christ: Anointed One, One specially chosen for an important purpose. The title christ identifies Jesus as the anointed Son of God. the true Messiah, the Savior of the world. Christ was Jesus title. Jesus what his earthly name and Christ was his eternal name. Christ is the Greek word for the Hebrew word Messiah. So Jesus is Christ and Christ is Jesus

Wrong about what: About the definition of a apostle and disciple. In post 293 elvisman said I was “wrong” about the church being the body of the church. In post 302 I responded to post 293 with who Jesus is. In post 333 elvisman said I’m “wrong” about the definition of a disciple and apostle. That is mainly what the wrong is about.

Never said the bible was: In post 301 elvisman says the church has the final authority on earth NOT the bible. I responded with “never said the bible was.”

This is what the answers to your 2 questions are, at least that is as far as I’m concerned.

 

[elvisman]

I have not changed my position. In post 322 you said I can’t dicipher the use of the words apostles and disciples.
In post 338 I gave you the definitions
In post 392 I gave you 3 definitions of disciple and apostle.
In post 329 I should have used the word “officially” apostles yet.
In most of my posts I agreed with you. The only thing we disagree with is the last supper where my bible says disciples. We also disagree with the definition of apostle and disciple. I have given you scripture that says both disciple and apostle, as a matter of fact they were the ones you gave me and I defined them which agreed with you. They were both disciples and apostles but I guess I should have said that instead of showing you a definition that agreed with you. Can’t you see that we have been agreeing all along.

**Actually, we *haven’t. ***
You keep saying that they were Apostles early on - but NOT at the Last Supper. This makes no sense.

I then provided you with proof that they were Apostles at the Last Supper **and provided you with Luke 22:14 to prove my point.

They were Apostles the ENTIRE time - but they were also Disciples.
They were BOTH.

Do you agree with this or do you still hold that their Apostleship was turned off and on as the Gospel progressed?

 

[rev_kevin]

**Actually, we *haven’t. ***
You keep saying that they were Apostles early on - but NOT at the Last Supper. This makes no sense.

I then provided you with proof that they* were* Apostles at the Last Supper and provided you with Luke 22:14 to prove my point.

They were Apostles the ENTIRE time - but they were also Disciples.
They were BOTH.

Do you agree with this or do you still hold that their Apostleship was turned off and on as the Gospel progressed?

I stick with what I said, just like your sticking by what you said. This is getting nowhere but into a disagreement that is turning hostile. So I think its time to say enough is enough and get on with what we believe to us to be true. We can keep going back and forth and get nowhere and to be real honest, I’m sick of the nonsence that has been going on. It all started with the definition of a disciple and apostle and it got ugly from there. I’ll take the high road and say no more. If you want to keep arguing about this, you can find someone eles because I can see that we are getting nowhere after many days with this same discussion. Others here are wondering what is going on and why all this back and forth bickering. Have a good evening and God bless.

 

[elvisman]

Wrong about what: About the definition of a apostle and disciple. In post 293 elvisman said I was “wrong” about the church being the body of the church.

No I didn’t - I said that the Church was the Body of Christ.
You are separated from that Body because you don’t belong to the Church. Jesus only established ONE Church and if you’re not IN it - you’re OUT of it.
You’re OUT of it - by choice.

In post 333 elvisman said I’m “wrong” about the definition of a disciple and apostle. That is mainly what the wrong is about.

**No I didn’t. I merely corrected you about the Apostles.
**
They were BOTH Apostles and Disciples and you reject that noion.
As for your definitions of each word - I agree with you.
**This is getting really boring . . .

 

[rev_kevin]

No I didn’t - I said that the Church was the Body of Christ.
You are separated from that Body because you don’t belong to the Church. Jesus only established ONE Church and if you’re not IN it - you’re OUT of it.
You’re OUT of it - by choice.

No I didn’t. I merely corrected you about the Apostles.

They were BOTH Apostles and Disciples and you reject that noion.
As for your definitions of each word - I agree with you.
**This is getting *really ***boring . . .

Ops I meant Christ not church.
Anyway good by.

 

[Protestant101]

**This is getting *really ***boring . . .

Yes; it certainly is

 

[Hisalone]

No I didn’t - I said that the Church was the Body of Christ.
You are separated from that Body because you don’t belong to the Church. Jesus only established ONE Church and if you’re not IN it - you’re OUT of it.
You’re OUT of it - by choice.

No I didn’t. I merely corrected you about the Apostles.

They were BOTH Apostles and Disciples and you reject that noion.
As for your definitions of each word - I agree with you.
**This is getting *really ***boring . . .

You are so wrong
You deny the Body of Christ rather than admit the error of your ways.
That is nothing but darkness.

 

[benedictus2]

I have a general observation/question for posters in this topic, if I may? I understand before asking it that answers may vary, depending upon which denomination you are from. But it has ocurred to me that maybe we are missing something here?

All of us would agree that there definitely is a hell; just as we would that heaven is real. While our various denominations would not agree on the specific nature of the two; we do agree that both exist. Right?

Now, obviously, God gives many warnings in Scripture re hell and hell fire. He doesn’t want us to end up there, right? Therefore, shouldn’t there be a way to determine if we will end up in one or the other? Does God leave us wondering all our lives? Why do we have such a hard time figuring this out and having assurance of our salvation in Christ alone? To say only God knows if we will go to hell, is to say only He can know if we are going to heaven too. So where is the assurance of salvation if “we cannot know?” Surely God is not into this kind of guessing game? Salvation by charades?

I am particularly looking forward to benedictus2’s answers and thoughts on this!

Hi P101,

Sorry I missed this post. Tom had to remind me about it.

I started writing then kept going so this will be a long one. Grab a cup of coffee or glass of wine and relax.

I think a good understanding of hell is necessary before we can say for sure whether we are going to hell or not.

So here is a link to an explanation about hell. What I will post after takes this into consideration so click on the link first.

Now some Catholics here may find this a very smug claim from me but I believe I am going to heaven.

I believe this to be so because I pray that God give me the grace to always say yes to Him even when the choice is extremely hard. A prayer like that I don’t think He will deny.

In my life, I have seen how He has been The Hound of Heaven wooing me away from sin. I don’t think He will take that much trouble just let me fall away from Him at the last moment.

But does that mean that God overpowers us with grace and overrides our will?

Well no. God always gives us sufficient (just enough) grace to say yes to Him, to choose Him always but He will never usurp our will. The choice is still up to us.

A concrete example from my life is the desire to go to mass everyday. I pray that I will be able to wake up early enough to make it to the 7:30 mass. Sure enough I seem to be awake at 5:30 which gives me enough time to get ready and catch the early train. But it is still a struggle to get up so I am still not a daily communicant. But each day He gives me that grace and some days I reply in the affirmative, some days in the negative with a few excuses along the way just so I will feel good about having said no.

Yet, with a little bit extra effort on my part I could do it. My mother can so there is really no excuse for me.

This is why “works” is important because in “works” (in this case my going to Mass) my yes takes shape and ceases to remain just another good intention. Our “works” then, our actualisation of the promptings of grace, is our response to God’s initiative. He has put out His hand. We now need to put our hands in His so that He can pull us out of the pit.

 

[benedictus2]

(continuation of post 384)

Every day we get presented with choices and we need to always choose Christ. But if we do not know which is Christ’s way in the first place, then our choice could very well be the wrong one. That is why we need good doctrine, so that first of all we know what is true so we can follow it. The world will always try to present something evil as a good. Contraception, divorce, homosexuality, greed, etc, etc, come to mind.

So this question really takes us back to how grace and free will relate to salvation.

I think it is like, working out. The first time you take up strength-training, the littlest exertion of previously unused muscle causes pain. As you keep going the exercise becomes easier and easier until say lifting a 20 kg weight or running long distance becomes a piece of cake.

So it is with grace. God gives us sufficient grace but it is not always efficacious. The more we say yes to the little things, we then start to train our souls on this path of yeses aligning our wills more and more closer to God’s. And this is what transforms us. Because we are adding fuel to the fire of the Holy Spirit that is burning in us and makes us more and more like Christ whose “food was to do the Father’s will”. So when the ultimate yes is asked of us, then that is the only way we could truly answer without doing violence to our own wills. Sufficient grace is now efficacious.

Someone said that for murderers the first killing is easy. After that, the succeeding ones become easier and easier.

I think this also relates to what Christ said about trust. If one cannot be trusted with small things, one cannot be trusted with big things.

So it is with good deeds. Every little act of love (mopping the floor for love, cooking the meal for love, folding clothes for love) increases our souls capacity for love such that in the end there is no other way to act but to act out of love for God.

I think the command to Love God first then to love our neighbour says it all. True love of neighbour stems from love of God. I will love my neighbour not because I feel like it, but because to the God whom I love, my neighbour matters, so I will love who my God loves.

This is why Mary’s yes is so important. Her yes (which for her would have meant death by stoning) is what God used to enter human history so that He can pitch His tent among us, so that God can become men that we may become children of God. So it is with us, our yeses to God incarnates Jesus in our lives allowing the glory of God to be made manifest in us.

When we truly manifest God, then we are “in heaven”.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[benedictus2]

Ok lets go 1 item at at time. You start.

Well, I don’t have any issues with the doctrines of the Church so maybe you can tell me which one you have an issue with. Perhaps so it is not completely off topic, we could relate that to salvation (hence avoidance of hell )

Or maybe something I already said in this forum which you disagree with. But please, something specific.

 

[tqualey]

Thanks Rev Kevin

God bless

Christ: Anointed One, One specially chosen for an important purpose. The title christ identifies Jesus as the anointed Son of God. the true Messiah, the Savior of the world. Christ was Jesus title. Jesus what his earthly name and Christ was his eternal name. Christ is the Greek word for the Hebrew word Messiah. So Jesus is Christ and Christ is Jesus

Wrong about what: About the definition of a apostle and disciple. In post 293 elvisman said I was “wrong” about the church being the body of the church. In post 302 I responded to post 293 with who Jesus is. In post 333 elvisman said I’m “wrong” about the definition of a disciple and apostle. That is mainly what the wrong is about.

Never said the bible was: In post 301 elvisman says the church has the final authority on earth NOT the bible. I responded with “never said the bible was.”

This is what the answers to your 2 questions are, at least that is as far as I’m concerned.