Will I go to Hell

[Janet1983]

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Jesus equates his very self with his Church.

He and his Church cannot be seperated. Salvation is IN Christ but THROUGH His Church - and he only established ONE.

You are right in saying that Jesus Christ founded the one church, but our definitions of what the church is vary as you might know.
Your words make it sound as if there was no salvation for someone who defected from the Catholic Church. For obvious reasons I disagree with you.
If it were not so I would be begging to re-join the fold which I am not. If I was agreeing with you I would do anything to persuade the CC to take me back.
I am a slave of Jesus Christ. He alone is my master and He alone is the focus of my life. I might not be right in some things and I know that I am a sinful creature, not deserving His mercy. I do however also know that there are true and faithful believers who are true to Him and not members of the CC.

I therefore do not see how the act of leaving the CC itself could condemn anybody to an eternal hell and I strongly disagree with the notion that it would lead to damnation.

 

[ronin67]

I very much want to quit the catholic church and become an
Assembly of God member. Am i doomed for hell?

I don’t fit in with the CC, there is no enthusiasm there.

Being new to the Catholic experience, I will say this from a new person looking in. I came from a Baptist, Lutheran, and United Church of Christ background. One thing that I’ve seen in many Catholics is the refusal to believe in salvation outside the Catholic Church. Great people in general, but lack of Christ like LOVE causes them to say this. They don’t (or maybe they do) realize how much hurt they cause that person they say that to. My friend the one true church is the one who preaches the truth of Holy Scriptures. Mind you, the Catholic Church does teach the truth of the Holy Bible, but they tend to make people believe they are the only way, when in fact many Popes stated there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. My friend go to the Assembly Of God church and continue to seek God, thru Christ Jesus. If your friends in the Catholic church don’t understand and don’t talk to you anymore because of your decision, then were they walking in Christ’s footsteps and teachings to begin with? One question to ponder that a friend asked me, “What denomination is God”? Human denominations put a limit on God. God is much greater than any man made denomination. Christ, the one true church is any church that understands, meets, and preaches the truth of the Holy Bible. Christ Jesus was God’s sacrifical lamb who takes away the sin of those who accept him as their Lord and Savior. Bottom line, the guilt trip is the way the devil makes you feel unworthy and sometimes the ones who you thought were your friends, help the devil do this. Expand your understanding of Christ, look to other churches that preach the truth of the Holy Bible. If in the end you come back to the Catholic Church, so be it. If not, serve Christ always giving our Heavenly Father the glory through the truth of his Holy inspired word, the Holy Bible.

Take Care and May God Bless you on your journey for truth in His Word.

Ed

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

Now, hold your horses, Rev Kevin… Honest, there is an abundance of time and opportunity to disagree - but, what I really want to do is find a starting ground where we can agree. That is important to me…and, I hope it would be important to you, too.

I really do not want to assume anything at this stage. So, do you have any problem with anything that I have said, or with any of the citations I provided?

Once we are in agreement with this, I will move on to your questions…

God bless

I know what you are saying but it doesn’t say that the Catholic church is the one true church. In Matthew 16:16 is says Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ He gave the correct answer and Jesus told him that upon this rock I will build my church. Could it mean the teachings of Jesus because the answer was “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Then he said upon this rock I will build my church, Could the answer that Peter gave and he was to build upon the message and teachings of the Messiah, Jesus. Could it be that that is the church Jesus is talking about. The body of Christ is the church and Jesus is the head of the church. Could it mean the body is the foundation that Jesus set in his teachings and that Jesus was the head of these teachings that we are to build upon. Just asking.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, P101

That is an excellent question, so let me offer a definition: it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, True God and True Man in about 33AD. Because it is the True Church, it can be historically traced from that point to today - after all, it would make no sense for the True Church to have perished in the sands of time. This account of the founding of His Church is related in Matthew 16. Having said this, you will find the True Church to be the Catholic Church.

Issues have arisen as to how we actually went from 33AD to 2009AD. I honestly think that a simple and unbiased look at history will resolve any honest question. Draw your own timeline beginning in 33AD - don’t leave anything out … and then place yourself on that timeline and determine how you got there. I think you will find this a straight forward approach.

Now, when you leave the section identified as Catholic Church - please note the scriptural reference that gave the founder(ess) of your church Christ’s objective call to abandon the Church He founded in 33AD. This is really important, because if SS we need to see just where Christ laid bare that He would throw out His Bride and marry again…and again…and … many, many more times.

Here are three really helpful links from three different points of view:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9501clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0705fea4.asp

This is really a simple matter - in the sense that there really is not a lot of heavy-duty philosophy or history or theology to lift before the answer is revealed. But, its simplicity is not to be equated with ease of access. Many a mighty mind has been crushed trying to pull all of the burdens of their own history and their own ideas while fighting the history of the Catholic Church.

God bless

Maybe we should ask for definitions of “true Church?”

 

[Protestant101]

Hi, P101

That is an excellent question, so let me offer a definition: it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, True God and True Man in about 33AD. Because it is the True Church, it can be historically traced from that point to today - after all, it would make no sense for the True Church to have perished in the sands of time. This account of the founding of His Church is related in Matthew 16. Having said this, you will find the True Church to be the Catholic Church.

Issues have arisen as to how we actually went from 33AD to 2009AD. I honestly think that a simple and unbiased look at history will resolve any honest question. Draw your own timeline beginning in 33AD - don’t leave anything out … and then place yourself on that timeline and determine how you got there. I think you will find this a straight forward approach.

Now, when you leave the section identified as Catholic Church - please note the scriptural reference that gave the founder(ess) of your church Christ’s objective call to abandon the Church He founded in 33AD. This is really important, because if SS we need to see just where Christ laid bare that He would throw out His Bride and marry again…and again…and … many, many more times.

Here are three really helpful links from three different points of view:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9501clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0705fea4.asp

This is really a simple matter - in the sense that there really is not a lot of heavy-duty philosophy or history or theology to lift before the answer is revealed. But, its simplicity is not to be equated with ease of access. Many a mighty mind has been crushed trying to pull all of the burdens of their own history and their own ideas while fighting the history of the Catholic Church.

God bless

Where do we see “true Church” in the Bible? Is it in fact defined by denominational terms? (such as “Roman Catholic”) Every church has their own brand of “history” by which they define “true Church;” showing that much of history is activist in nature, that is, it is embellished in favor of a given church and their message. The Bible does use a number of desciptors when referring to the Church; but where is “true” used to describe it?

 

[tqualey]

Hold it, right there P101…

You asked for a definition and you got one…now, what is YOUR definition of the True Chruch?

Where do we see “true Church” in the Bible? Is it in fact defined by denominational terms? (such as “Roman Catholic”) Every church has their own brand of “history” by which they define “true Church;” showing that much of history is activist in nature, that is, it is embellished in favor of a given church and their message. The Bible does use a number of desciptors when referring to the Church; but where is “true” used to describe it?

Once we have our definitions all laid out so we can see what each other is talking about, then we can start asking some questions. I think you will find this a much more orderly way to do business…

I am eagerly awaiting your definiton…

 

[Protestant101]

Hold it, right there P101…

You asked for a definition and you got one…now, what is YOUR definition of the True Chruch?

Once we have our definitions all laid out so we can see what each other is talking about, then we can start asking some questions. I think you will find this a much more orderly way to do business…

I am eagerly awaiting your definiton…

You didnt ask me until now! And I am challenging the notion of “true Church” so that should have answered your question before u asked!

 

[benedictus2]

I know what you are saying but it doesn’t say that the Catholic church is the one true church. In Matthew 16:16 is says Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ He gave the correct answer and Jesus told him that upon this rock I will build my church. Could it mean the teachings of Jesus because the answer was “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Then he said upon this rock I will build my church, Could the answer that Peter gave and he was to build upon the message and teachings of the Messiah, Jesus.

Well no. First we have to post that dialogue here so we can reference it::

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
**14 **They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” **15 **He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **19 **I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Verse 18 in Aramaic (because Jesus spoke aramaic) went like this: And so I say to you ( Jesus is addressing Simon here) , you are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church. Strictly translated to English it goes, You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my church.

So it is clear here that Simon is the rock. Having renamed Simon the rock, he say to him that on this rock ( that is Simon) He will build His Church.

What is interesting here too is that He said that the Father revealed to Simon the truth about Jesus - that He is the Son of God. Now Jesus could have gone about proclaiming this Himself, but no. He causes this proclamation of His identity and mission to done through Peter. And the fact that the Father chose Peter to reveal this truth to, means that the Father Himself had a hand in picking Peter. So Father, Son and Holy Spirit chose Peter.

So you see, all this mis information is easily clarified by just reading the relevant verses and not chopping up the word of God but allowing it to speak for itself.

Could it be that that is the church Jesus is talking about. The body of Christ is the church and Jesus is the head of the church. Could it mean the body is the foundation that Jesus set in his teachings and that Jesus was the head of these teachings that we are to build upon. Just asking.

Most definitely not. Paul is quite clear about that. When he was writing about the church being the body of Christ, he meant the visible church, which at that time was only one church, the Catholic Church.

And Jesus intended for there to be only one Church for in his discourse before His death He prayed that they may be one. Notice, there was only 12 of them at that time and He was already praying for this one-ness.

A few months ago, I made a post on the significance of Ceasaria Philippi. I will locate that post and repost it here.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TheosisM

Maybe I missed it, but did you ever get a response from FRANCISPIE?

God bless

If you want to quit the Catholic Church, why are you concerned with if you’re doomed to hell from the Catholic perspective?

 

[benedictus2]

I know what you are saying but it doesn’t say that the Catholic church is the one true church. In Matthew 16:16 is says Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ He gave the correct answer and Jesus told him that upon this rock I will build my church. Could it mean the teachings of Jesus because the answer was “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Then he said upon this rock I will build my church, Could the answer that Peter gave and he was to build upon the message and teachings of the Messiah, Jesus. Could it be that that is the church Jesus is talking about. The body of Christ is the church and Jesus is the head of the church. Could it mean the body is the foundation that Jesus set in his teachings and that Jesus was the head of these teachings that we are to build upon. Just asking.

Here is a more detailed explanation of Matthew 16:13-19 and why Jesus went all the way to Ceasaria Philippi to rename Simon as Rock and to promise him that he will be the rock upon which Jesus will build His Church.

Background:

Caesaria Philipi is around 20 miles ( a rough two days journey up the mountains) from Galillee.

Now why does our Lord go to all that trouble just for this scene?

Caesaria Philipi which used to be called Panneas was dedicated to the Greek god Pan. When Philip Herod became tetrarch of that region he gave it to Augustus Caesar for some favour so it became Ceasaria Philipi, that is, Ceasar’s city from Philip.

In this region is a humongous rock around 500ft long and 200ft high.

On top of this rock is a huge marble temple with an idol of the god Pan. Philip Herod replaced that idol of Pan with the idol of the divine Ceasar Augustus (emperors were considered divine).

To the left of the rock is a cave and in the cave is a deep hole filled with water which is the source of the Jordan river. The pagans believed this to to be the gates of sheol - the doorway to the underworld.

With that scene in mind, let us now read Matthew 16: 13-19

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
**He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” **
**Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

Comment:

So now we have Jesus standing next to this rock, on top of which, is a temple to a false god (two false gods as a matter of fact) next to which is a cave that is the gate to sheol. He is now saying that He will do something different. He will build the Church of the True God on top of the true rock and that rock is Simon barJonah and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

We even see here a parallel with the sheep/shepherd motif in the commissioning of Peter in John 21. This area and temple used to be dedicated to Pan, the god of shepherds. Here we have Chist the True God giving the promise to Peter who He will later commission to shepherd His sheep.

Steve Ray also notes the implication of the water in the cave. He comments that when you think of Peter being the rock and the water from this Rock now waters Gods’ people.

Also, since this cave is the origin of the Jordan river where Jesus was baptized and went with His disciples when they went baptizing, you can see in this symbolism the whole salvation theology including that of baptism as a sacrament of incorporation into Christ’s Church.

Another thing, and this is very important, neither Jesus nor the Father made any teaching about Jesus’ true identity and mission. This teaching THEY caused to be pronounced through Peter.
Christ could have gone around proclaiming He is the Son of God but He didn’t. He let that be declared through Peter.

If you notice, even His apostles had no real clue as to who Jesus was. Peter cuts through all that speculation and pronounces the TRUTH about Jesus Christ. Through the ages to this very day, his successors continue to pronounce the truth about who Jesus is and what His mission is all about.

 

[tqualey]

Not quite!

I did not think you needed an invitation for your own question. Now, I am sure you are not back to waltzing around issues again, are you…?

You didnt ask me until now! And I am challenging the notion of “true Church” so that should have answered your question before u asked!

Spare me the guess work. Do you or do you not have a definition for True Chruch?

If you have no definition, then I submit, just take mine and we will work with that. But, that would mean you have no argument…

So, I guess you do have a definition…but, you are too shy to present it? Buck up, old boy - you can do it! I have faith in you! Now, what is it that you want to tell us about your definition of the True Church.

I am almost willing to bet you did not read on of the three links I provided you. Seriously, do your self a favor - read at least one. I think it will really help you. They are really not long - and they not only give you a logical approach, but Scriptural references, too. Hey, now you just can’t beat a deal like that … assuming you are interested in an honest dialogue…

God bless

 

[benedictus2]

Maybe we should ask for definitions of “true Church?”

When we say true, It will have to be the Church that Jesus established. So what we need is to go through history and find the church that Jesus established.

If we believe the Bible, then we have to believe that that Church that he established would still be here today or else he is a liar because he did not keep his promise to not allow the gates of hell to prevail against it.

Also, when we say true, there has to be only one because Jesus said he was establishing His Church not Churches.

 

[benedictus2]

I really don’t see how leaving the CC would get you damned to eternal torments. Salvation is in Christ…

But then again I don’t think I can approach this topic 100% unbiased. I left the CC for theological reasons.

Yes and from the other threads we’ve realized how unsound the “theological reasons” were.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ronin67

I found your response here disturbing. Let me explain…

Being new to the Catholic experience, I will say this from a new person looking in. If you are claiming to be a Catholic in this statement - and are mis-directing this obviously lost soul with your ‘insights’ I suggest you speak to your spiritual advisor or priest before offering any more of your ‘guidance’.

I came from a Baptist, Lutheran, and United Church of Christ background. One thing that I’ve seen in many Catholics is the refusal to believe in salvation outside the Catholic Church. Great people in general, but lack of Christ like LOVE causes them to say this. And, just what do you base this on? The teaching of the Catholic Church has always been that if you know the CC is the True Church - the one founded by Jesus Christ on Peter - and you refuse to worship God as Christ has told us through His Church, then your willful disobedience is what condemns you to hell. There is a lack of Love - but, the lack is on the part of the disobedient individual - not the one who points out the error of their ways.

They don’t (or maybe they do) realize how much hurt they cause that person they say that to. My friend the one true church is the one who preaches the truth of Holy Scriptures. Mind you, the Catholic Church does teach the truth of the Holy Bible, but they tend to make people believe they are the only way, when in fact many Popes stated there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. So, just what is your point? Preaching the truth is insufficient - you need to be ‘warm fuzzy’, too? Just how broad the path and wide the gate do you want before you realize you are going in the wrong direction. This is serious matter - and your characterization of the CC is way off base.

My friend go to the Assembly Of God church and continue to seek God, thru Christ Jesus. If your friends in the Catholic church don’t understand and don’t talk to you anymore because of your decision, then were they walking in Christ’s footsteps and teachings to begin with? So, now we are into judging the motivies of others?

One question to ponder that a friend asked me, “What denomination is God”? Human denominations put a limit on God. God is much greater than any man made denomination. Christ, the one true church is any church that understands, meets, and preaches the truth of the Holy Bible. If this is your true belleif, then I do not see how you can call yourself a Catholic. The Catholic Church is more then the Bible - and to miss this point is to miss a lot.

Christ Jesus was God’s sacrifical lamb who takes away the sin of those who accept him as their Lord and Savior. Bottom line, the guilt trip is the way the devil makes you feel unworthy and sometimes the ones who you thought were your friends, help the devil do this. Expand your understanding of Christ, look to other churches that preach the truth of the Holy Bible. If in the end you come back to the Catholic Church, so be it. If not, serve Christ always giving our Heavenly Father the glory through the truth of his Holy inspired word, the Holy Bible.

Take Care and May God Bless you on your journey for truth in His Word.

Tell you what … if you are a Catholic, then just take these few posts to your local priest and get his opinion on where you stand on this matter. I think you are in serious error.

God bless

Ed

 

[benedictus2]

You are right in saying that Jesus Christ founded the one church, but our definitions of what the church is vary as you might know.

But you don’t get to define what Church is. Jesus already did that, when he called the apostles and gave them the mission of proclaiming the gospel. Christ’s Church was born at Pentecost. Find that Church and you will find the Catholic Church.

Your words make it sound as if there was no salvation for someone who defected from the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does not say that only Catholics will be saved. But it is true, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church for the very simple reason that He decided to bring salvation via the Catholic Church. The Bible that you esteem so much was written and canonized by the Catholic Church. So God used and is using the Catholic Church to bring the gospel to mankind.

Since you agree that Jesus is the way to salvation, well, you only know of Jesus because of the Catholic Church. So if you “get saved” then it is because of your knowledge of Jesus which came from the Catholic Church.

Perhaps you have not really thought about this but if you believe in the Bible then the sheer force of reason necessitates that you believe in the Church. But I know you have not stretched you logical analysis that far.

For obvious reasons I disagree with you. {/quote]
No your reason is not obvious. That you are a fallen away Catholic is obvious. But why you are a fallen away Catholic is not obvious.

If it were not so I would be begging to re-join the fold which I am not.

That you are not begging to re-join the fold are due to a varietyof reasons and none of them has to do with salvation not being attained through the Catholic Church.

If I was agreeing with you I would do anything to persuade the CC to take me back.

There is no need for the dramatics here. There is no need to "do anything to persuade the CC to take you back. It is just a matter of turning around, retreating your steps and heading back Home.

But that takes a lot of courage and humility. You need to pray for these two virtues.

I am a slave of Jesus Christ.

No you are not. You are a slave of yourself. Because that is what it means, to say I will decide for myself when it comes to faith and morals.
I received a rather cute email yesterday that went: Most people want to serve God…but only as advisers. You fit the picture.

He alone is my master and He alone is the focus of my life.

But your post here clearly says that that is not so. Christ appointed people to steer His Church and yet you disobey them to follow your own will.

Whatever grief you feel the Church has caused you, well, you need to heal from that. Staying away from the Church is not going to hasten the healing process. It will only cause the wound to fester.

The protestants who were born so, or atheists who became protestants are understandable. But Catholics who leave, that is not understandable.

There is culpability on the Church for not catethizing you well enough I suppose, but there is also culpability on your part becuase good catechism is so widely available now in this age of the internet.

 

[benedictus2]

Being new to the Catholic experience, I will say this from a new person looking in. I came from a Baptist, Lutheran, and United Church of Christ background. One thing that I’ve seen in many Catholics is the refusal to believe in salvation outside the Catholic Church. Great people in general, but lack of Christ like LOVE causes them to say this.

Actually if you dig deep into Protestant theology, that is precisely what is lacking. There is justification, judgement, hellfire and no mention of love. That is why it is so easy for them to believe in Calvinist predestination.

They don’t (or maybe they do) realize how much hurt they cause that person they say that to. My friend the one true church is the one who preaches the truth of Holy Scriptures.

Since Scripture (at least the NT) was written and canonized by the Catholic Church then she is the one who preaches the truth and thus the one True Church.

Mind you, the Catholic Church does teach the truth of the Holy Bible, but they tend to make people believe they are the only way, when in fact many Popes stated there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.

The Catholic church never said that only Catholics will be saved.

In the end we will be judged on what we know. From those who have been given much, much will be asked. Those who are Catholics much more will be asked because they have been given the fullness of truth. So it wll probably go harder for those who leave the Church. But God is merciful, He leaves the 99 to search for the 1 lost sheep.
My friend go to the Assembly Of God church and continue to seek God, thru Christ Jesus.
Most people who leave the Church leave for a) moral reasons (Catholic teaching is too difficult) c) need more entertaining worship b) lack of proper catechesis.
The first two is about self (I/Me/Myself), the last one the Church has to take some responsibility for.

I will write here a little excerpt from the book "Prodigal Daughters - Catholic Women Come Home to the Church"

Leila Habra Miller’s Conversion Story:
“How would you feel if I left the Church for a Bible Church?” I asked her (Leila’s mom).
When I popped the question she gave the answer that was to change not only my life but the livesof many others as well. “Before you leave,” she said, “you should find out what it is you’re leaving”…

She presented me with a book I never knew existed. It was Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, a work on Catholic Apologetics…
Why had it never crossed my mind that a Church 2000 years ol might be able to present arguments on her own behalf? Maybe because inmy entire lifetime as a Catholic I had never heard anyoe defend the faith. No one had ever given me any reason why Catholicism was right, why only the Church has the fullness of truth.

Once Keating’s glorious book was placed in my hands, the contest was all over. "

 

[benedictus2]

Where do we see “true Church” in the Bible? Is it in fact defined by denominational terms? (such as “Roman Catholic”) Every church has their own brand of “history” by which they define “true Church;” showing that much of history is activist in nature, that is, it is embellished in favor of a given church and their message. The Bible does use a number of desciptors when referring to the Church; but where is “true” used to describe it?

That is why using secular historians help. You can’t say that they stacking the odds in favour of the Catholic Church.

 

[ronin67]

Actually if you dig deep into Protestant theology, that is precisely what is lacking. There is justification, judgement, hellfire and no mention of love. That is why it is so easy for them to believe in Calvinist predestination.

Since Scripture (at least the NT) was written and canonized by the Catholic Church then she is the one who preaches the truth and thus the one True Church.

The Catholic church never said that only Catholics will be saved.

In the end we will be judged on what we know. From those who have been given much, much will be asked. Those who are Catholics much more will be asked because they have been given the fullness of truth. So it wll probably go harder for those who leave the Church. But God is merciful, He leaves the 99 to search for the 1 lost sheep.

Most people who leave the Church leave for a) moral reasons (Catholic teaching is too difficult) c) need more entertaining worship b) lack of proper catechesis.
The first two is about self (I/Me/Myself), the last one the Church has to take some responsibility for.

I will write here a little excerpt from the book "Prodigal Daughters - Catholic Women Come Home to the Church"

Leila Habra Miller’s Conversion Story:
“How would you feel if I left the Church for a Bible Church?” I asked her (Leila’s mom).
When I popped the question she gave the answer that was to change not only my life but the livesof many others as well. “Before you leave,” she said, “you should find out what it is you’re leaving”…

She presented me with a book I never knew existed. It was Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, a work on Catholic Apologetics…
Why had it never crossed my mind that a Church 2000 years ol might be able to present arguments on her own behalf? Maybe because inmy entire lifetime as a Catholic I had never heard anyoe defend the faith. No one had ever given me any reason why Catholicism was right, why only the Church has the fullness of truth.

Once Keating’s glorious book was placed in my hands, the contest was all over. "

WOOH!. The FULLNESS of truth (that is deep). Your arrogance is showing (a trait displayed by many Catholics). Who is judging now? It will go harder for those leaving the church? Again, says you who fall in to the arrogant Catholic catagory (I wish not to be in your narrow-minded, unbiblical group). God’s grace knows no bounds. The Catholic Church, nor any church that says they are the only way to God Thru Christ Jesus our savior is wrong. The true church is any church that embraces the truth of scripture (minus all the knuckle headed cults of Christianity that deny Christ Jesus is God the Son/the only way to God the Father).

 I have talked to my priest and when asked he never said salvation only comes thru the one true church.  Christ is the Church, and just because the Catholic church was the first to start Christianity, doesn't mean they are the one and only true church (not stated that way in the Holy Scriptures/Christ was the Church and Peter was deemed the rock to set the standard for Christ's church on earth/not specified run by one/the tree of Christianity is not straight without branches).  Nowhere did it say that the Catholic Church was the one and only true church, just because they started it.  In fact the ones who started it, pursecuted the early Christians.  St. Paul and St. Peter were killed in the country and by some of the early forefathers of the true church (many converted to the teachings brought to Rome by St. Peter and St. Paul after the fact).  Sin is the reason many leave the Catholic Church (too strict for some), but many also leave because of lack of compassion and the unwillingness to allow God to do his job in granting forgiveness (not needed from fellow Catholics/God judges and forgives, humans are not given the right to pass judgement on who is forgiven and who isn't).  I will become a Catholic and show more understanding where many who judge in the church do not.  Oh, I will also remain a Baptist, Lutheran, and a UCC member once I become a Catholic.

Take Care and Open your hearts and true understanding of the Compassion of Christ. You guys sound just like the Pharisees in our Savior’s time. Experts of the Law, yet lacking in the love and compassion that Christ Jesus displayed.

Ed

 

[benedictus2]

WOOH!. The FULLNESS of truth (that is deep). Your arrogance is showing (a trait displayed by many Catholics).

It is not arrogance to state what is true. It is just a simple case of stating facts. But perhaps you don’t deal in facts so………

Who is judging now? It will go harder for those leaving the church? Again, says you who fall in to the arrogant Catholic catagory (I wish not to be in your narrow-minded, unbiblical group).

Unbiblical? Actually the protestant branches are un-biblical although they don’t think they are.
What did Jesus say? If you have been given much, much will be expected. Those born Catholic have been given much, to waste that away because of a failure to completely understand is no laughing matter. But you are right, only God knows hearts and so the only one who can judge.
My statement was based on what I mentioned above.

God’s grace knows no bounds.

Indeed. And that is why so many come back after realizing their error.

The Catholic Church, nor any church that says they are the only way to God Thru Christ Jesus our savior is wrong. The true church is any church that embraces the truth of scripture (minus all the knuckle headed cults of Christianity that deny Christ Jesus is God the Son/the only way to God the Father).

Wrong again. Christ did not establish different churches. He built only one church. Come the reformation and several men decided to build their own churches. Check your history books. You will know that this is just another fact.

I have talked to my priest and when asked he never said salvation only comes thru the one true church.

He probably didn’t want to offend you. And it is true, not only Catholics will see God face to face. But the fact remains that you only know of Jesus Christ BECAUSE of the Catholic Church. Just another fact yet again.

And there is no use railing against this because this is merely the way God WILLED it to be so. Otherwise, Jesus would have simply written the Bible and just told the apostles " Here, go read and follow".

Christ is the Church,

Duh, no he is not. See, I knew you were not being Biblical. The Church is the Body of Christ, Jesus is the Head of the Church.

and just because the Catholic church was the first to start Christianity, doesn’t mean they are the one and only true church

Well if Christ started only one Church it follows that it is the one and only true church. If He started several different churches then that would be different.

Every other church was started by men. Did Christ say that men should start their own churches? You should give me chapter and verse where that is written considering you are supposedly very biblical.

(not stated that way in the Holy Scriptures/Christ was the Church and Peter was deemed the rock to set the standard for Christ’s church on earth/not specified run by one/the tree of Christianity is not straight without branches).

Naaah, you are spinning scripture rather than allowing it to speak for itself. Read Matthew 16: 13-19 again. Nowhere does it state that. Again nullifies your claim of being biblical.

But you are right, the Church is like a tree with branches (and all the birds dwell there in) but the branches REMAIN on the tree. Else they wither and die

And the Church has indeed many branches, so many in fact that there is no reason to leave it. One will always find a branch to fit in.

Nowhere did it say that the Catholic Church was the one and only true church, just because they started it.

Okay then, Christ said he will build one (1 / uno / eine) church not churchES. Where did it state that Christ meant for there to be many churches. And yes, if you could supply chapter and verse that would be good.

In fact the ones who started it, pursecuted the early Christians. St. Paul and St. Peter were killed in the country and by some of the early forefathers of the true church (many converted to the teachings brought to

Rome by St. Peter and St. Paul after the fact)
Okay, so know practically zilc about Church history. But that is easily remedied.

Here is a little bit of reading that should set you on to a better informed journey.

Time line of the Catholic Church to 1 – 500 BC
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_catholic_church.htm

 

[benedictus2]

Sin is the reason many leave the Catholic Church (too strict for some),

Yes, that is true. Sin is indeed the reason some leave. They want to commit sin and still feel good about doing it so they join a church who will confirm them in their sin. You know pat them in the back and say go and sin some more because that is all okay. You can always justify it in the name of “love” and “compassion”. But they very carefully evade defining what “true love” and “true comapssion” is. Nice!

Know what, a lot of people cite the story of the adulterous woman to bolster their position saying that Jesus did not condemn the woman. They conveniently cut off His last words: “Go and sin no more”.

but many also leave because of lack of compassion and the unwillingness to allow God to do his job in granting forgiveness (not needed from fellow Catholics/God judges and forgives, humans are not given the right to pass judgement on who is forgiven and who isn’t).

You are not making sense here. Are you complaining about the sacrament of reconciliation?

Fellow Catholics cannot judge their hearts. But fellow Catholics can certainly judge their actions. It is not being judgemental to say that murder, adultery, divorce, fornication, theft, lying are sins.

But they don’t want to hear that. They want to be told it is okay to keep sinning.

We must have compassion but we must not be wishy washy or we lose sigh of what is true.

I will become a Catholic and show more understanding where many who judge in the church do not.

That is great!! Then perhaps you will become an informed Catholic. Love is not about schmaltz. Love must be grounded on Truth.

Oh, I will also remain a Baptist, Lutheran, and a UCC member once I become a Catholic.

**No such thing. You cannot be a Catholic and another religion as well. In a marriage it’s called infidelity. **

But this statement is really interesting. You have just shown by that statement that YOU INTEND TO LIE. You know what that means? Here’s a clue: the devil is the father of lies.
**Aaah, a man who intends to lie and does not seem to have a problem with that. Hmmm. Did you say you are Christian? **

Take Care and Open your hearts and true understanding of the Compassion of Christ.

Here is an example of Christ’s compassion. “Neither do I judge you. Go and sin no more.”

You guys sound just like the Pharisees in our Savior’s time. Experts of the Law, yet lacking in the love and compassion that Christ Jesus displayed.

Far from it. We know very well we are sinners. That is why we have the sacrament of confession.

As I said above, you must be one of those who confuse compassion and love with schmaltz. It is not compassionate to leave someone in their error and their sin. This is exactly what the devil wants to do and has succeeded in doing: muddle the issue enough so people can keep on sinning and still feel good about it because it was done “in love”. Hogwash!