Will I go to Hell

[tqualey]

Hi, Ronin67

We really do need to talk…

WOOH!. The FULLNESS of truth (that is deep). Yes, this is deep - and, you really do need to know just what is involved. Do you think Christ set up a ‘shallow’ Church with lose content, feel-good beliefs and anything else you may have to feel comfortable with? Depth may indeed be an issue - but, you are ‘swimming’ for your eternal life with the aid of the Grace of God.

Your arrogance is showing (a trait displayed by many Catholics). Who is judging now? It will go harder for those leaving the church? Again, says you who fall in to the arrogant Catholic catagory (I wish not to be in your narrow-minded, unbiblical group). Just how broad a path and wide a gate will it take before you realize that calling people names will not get you any closer to what you claim you want. You say you want Jesus - but, reject the Church He founded on Peter in Matt 16. Truly, Ed, if you have a concern about being UN-biblical - here is a news flash - founding one’s own church, leading others astray and then claiming the mercy of God will save your soul is unbelievable arrogance. And the price for this degree of hubris is eternal damnation.

God’s grace knows no bounds. The ‘problem’ however is that, neither does His Justice!The Catholic Church, nor any church that says they are the only way to God Thru Christ Jesus our savior is wrong. And, just what biblical reference are you going to provide for that statement. Let me help… but, this is from the teaching of the Cathloic Church: you are required by God to follow the lights your are given to guide your conscience. Refusing to follow these lights is blameworthy guilt. The true church is any church that embraces the truth of scripture (minus all the knuckle headed cults of Christianity that deny Christ Jesus is God the Son/the only way to God the Father). Did you know it was the Catholic Church who gave you this Scripture?

God bless
Ed

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ronin67

Sorry about the interruption … got called away… so let me get back to your post from where I left off…

  I have talked to my priest and when asked he never said salvation only comes thru the one true church.  Actually, just because he never used those words, does not mean that he did not try and convey the idea.  And, that idea is that Christ founded His Church on Perter and through His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church, the Sacraments and special graces flow.

Christ is the Church, and just because the Catholic church was the first to start Christianity, doesn’t mean they are the one and only true church (not stated that way in the Holy Scriptures/Christ was the Church and Peter was deemed the rock to set the standard for Christ’s church on earth/not specified run by one/the tree of Christianity is not straight without branches). Without out a doubt, Ronin67, this is a convoluted way of presenting an idea - let’s take a look at what you are saying here:

1- the Catholic Church started Christianity - and this was done beginning with Matt 16. Christ started the Catholic Church. Christ did not found ‘churches’

2- so, if the Catholic Church is not the one and only true church, what others did He found. And just as I gave you a scriptural reference - please give the reference to where He will not only provide divergence from the Church He founded on Peter - but chaos with regards to doctrine (Christ is God/no He isn’t, Christ is in the Eurcharist/no He isn’t, Baptism is necessary for salvation/no it’s not, Confession is necessary for the assured forgiveness of sin/no it’s not, etc., etc., and more etc. - to include the diversity listed in 30,000+ protestant churches, cults, sects, groups and assemblies.

3- if you want to use an agarian example, how about using the concept given by Christ in John 15:5-6. You will note there is precious little encouragement for those who decide to start their own ‘vine’.

5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned

Ed

 

[tqualey]

Sorry for the break… here is the remainder…
tqualey;6046555:

Honestly, Ed, the idea of you presenting the same ideas you presented on CAF to a Catholic Priest and him not telling you there is a problem with what you have said, is truly incredible. While the idea of, " No Salvation outside of the Catholic Church", needs an explanation - what you have provided is simply relativism dressed up to appear politically correct acceptance of a doctrine that proclaims, whatever-feels-good-do-it.

Earlier I had address the broad road and wide gate (Matt 7:13) but, it may be best to see just how open to divergence Christ tells His listeners He is:

13
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
15
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So by their fruits you will know them.
21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Nowhere did it say that the Catholic Church was the one and only true church, just because they started it. Now, this is an intriguing concept. So, if Christ did not found the one and only true chruch, just what did He found? And, in your entusiasm for providing a scriptural reference for this - identify what Chruch you claim as getting you closer to Christ.

In fact the ones who started it, pursecuted the early Christians. The ‘ones who started it’ would be the Apostles - and all were persecuted with only John not having died a martyr’s death. What are you talking about?

St. Paul and St. Peter were killed in the country and by some of the early forefathers of the true church (many converted to the teachings brought to Rome by St. Peter and St. Paul after the fact). These two saints were killed under order from the pagan Emperors of Rome. You will need to provide a credible reference to counter this statement.T

Sin is the reason many leave the Catholic Church (too strict for some), but many also leave because of lack of compassion and the unwillingness to allow God to do his job in granting forgiveness (not needed from fellow Catholics/God judges and forgives, humans are not given the right to pass judgement on who is forgiven and who isn’t). What part of the broad road and wide gate does not apply here? You obviously have forgotten that there is the Sacrament of Confession. Seriously, Ed, the more I read what you wrote, the harder it is for me to believe you are a practicing Catholic.

I will become a Catholic and show more understanding where many who judge in the church do not. Oh, I will also remain a Baptist, Lutheran, and a UCC member once I become a Catholic. Yeah, bring this to your Catholic Priest. From what you have just said, you are no more ready to become a Catholic then I am to become a Baptist, Lutheranand a UCC. Ah, did you notice that the jumble you have provided really indicates a lack of direction.

Take Care and Open your hearts and true understanding of the Compassion of Christ. You guys sound just like the Pharisees in our Savior’s time. Experts of the Law, yet lacking in the love and compassion that Christ Jesus displayed. You may be interested in the idea that Christ did not cut the Pharisees any ‘slack’ when it came to either doctrine or how they practiced it. The ‘anything-you-want’ idea did not fly with Christ, why do you think it will fly with His Chruch (and, that would be the Catholic Church

God bless

Ed

 

[Adonia]

That’s a tough one. I’ll agree with the person who said search for the truth. As a cradle Catholic, I strayed from the faith in my younger days, but in the end some of those other denominations just did not seem right to me. So back home I came and I feel at peace. The only other form of Christianity that I would consider would be the Orthodox Church. It’s simple, any church that does not believe in " the Sacraments", those “sacred things” that came from the the earliest days of Christianity, I would counsel that you stay away from. God help you on your discernment.

 

[rev_kevin]

Well no. First we have to post that dialogue here so we can reference it::

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
**14 **They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” **15 **He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **19 **I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Verse 18 in Aramaic (because Jesus spoke aramaic) went like this: And so I say to you ( Jesus is addressing Simon here) , you are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church. Strictly translated to English it goes, You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my church.

So it is clear here that Simon is the rock. Having renamed Simon the rock, he say to him that on this rock ( that is Simon) He will build His Church.

What is interesting here too is that He said that the Father revealed to Simon the truth about Jesus - that He is the Son of God. Now Jesus could have gone about proclaiming this Himself, but no. He causes this proclamation of His identity and mission to done through Peter. And the fact that the Father chose Peter to reveal this truth to, means that the Father Himself had a hand in picking Peter. So Father, Son and Holy Spirit chose Peter.

So you see, all this mis information is easily clarified by just reading the relevant verses and not chopping up the word of God but allowing it to speak for itself.

Most definitely not. Paul is quite clear about that. When he was writing about the church being the body of Christ, he meant the visible church, which at that time was only one church, the Catholic Church.

And Jesus intended for there to be only one Church for in his discourse before His death He prayed that they may be one. Notice, there was only 12 of them at that time and He was already praying for this one-ness.

A few months ago, I made a post on the significance of Ceasaria Philippi. I will locate that post and repost it here.

Peter was the rock that the church was to be build on ok but what church? I see nowhere where it says the Catholic church. Just church now this church could mean that Peter was to build upon his {Jesus"] teachings. His {Jesus’} teachings is the foundation that Jesus laid to build upon. Peter was to continue to teach or to build upon what Jesus taught. Colossians 1:18 “Christ is the head of the church, which is his body…”
1:25 “God has given me the responsibility of serving his church by proclaiming his message in all is fullness to you Gentiles.” Ephesians 1:22-23 “And God has put all things under the authority of Christ, and he gave him this authority for the benefit of the church. And the church is his body, it is filled by Christ, who fills everything everywhere with his presence.” The church is the body of Christ, not a orginized single church with a name. We have given church’s names. Neither Jesus or Peter said a name of the church. Now Peter was to go out and continue the teachings that Jesus taught. Peter and the others were to teach others so they can help spread the Good News that Jesus taught them…

 

[Janet1983]

Yes and from the other threads we’ve realized how unsound the “theological reasons” were.

These reasons might be unsound to you, but to me they aren’t to me. I did have my reasons and these might not sound appropriate to you but they are to me. If it weren’t so I wouldn’t have gone so far as to leave the RCC. I was raised in a Catholic environment and I was the most religious person in my family. Hadn’t it been for these reasons which were sound for me I wouldn’t have taken the steps I did. (It’s not like the CC is too strict for me. On the contrary… )
Jesus Christ is my Lord and He is my Saviour and to Him alone I turn and in Him alone I trust.
He is my focus and I want to please Him alone.
That’s why I don’t believe that leaving the RCC is condemning Francispie or me to an eternity in hell.
I cannot speak for Francispie’s motives as I can only examine myself. I disagree however with the notion that leaving the CC in and of itself is reason for us to end up in hell.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

Now, hold your horses, Rev Kevin… Honest, there is an abundance of time and opportunity to disagree - but, what I really want to do is find a starting ground where we can agree. That is important to me…and, I hope it would be important to you, too.

I really do not want to assume anything at this stage. So, do you have any problem with anything that I have said, or with any of the citations I provided?

Once we are in agreement with this, I will move on to your questions…

God bless

Do we agree that Christ is the head of the church and his body is the church.

 

[ronin67]

Do we agree that Christ is the head of the church and his body is the church.

Yes, that is the truth. What no response by the stated truth?

Take Care and May God Unit us all in the body of Christ.

Ed

 

[ronin67]

Do we agree that Christ is the head of the church and his body is the church.

They can’t talk to you? You are not a member of the one true church. Your non-denominational at that? You have a identity problem. Bottom line, no matter what the Holy Bible says, you are not a member of the one true church, so you will be wrong.

Take Care and may God Bless!

Ed

 

[elvisman]

elvisman this dodging is between you and Hisalone, Protestant 101 did not make the statement. He asked a totally different question. Now you are dodging this question by Protestant 101 by asking him to answer a question that he never asked.

You’re absolutely right!
My mistake.

 

[elvisman]

You are right in saying that Jesus Christ founded the one church, but our definitions of what the church is vary as you might know.
Your words make it sound as if there was no salvation for someone who defected from the Catholic Church. For obvious reasons I disagree with you.
If it were not so I would be begging to re-join the fold which I am not. If I was agreeing with you I would do anything to persuade the CC to take me back.
I am a slave of Jesus Christ. He alone is my master and He alone is the focus of my life. I might not be right in some things and I know that I am a sinful creature, not deserving His mercy. I do however also know that there are true and faithful believers who are true to Him and not members of the CC.

I therefore do not see how the act of leaving the CC itself could condemn anybody to an eternal hell and I strongly disagree with the notion that it would lead to damnation.

Because Jesus and his Church cannot be separated (Acts 9:4-5) and if you reject his Church - you reject Jesus (Luke 10:16).

How can you reject Jesus and make it into heaven?

Let me ask you this:
What is your definition of the Church?

 

[Janet1983]

Because Jesus and his Church cannot be separated (Acts 9:4-5) and if you reject his Church - you reject Jesus (Luke 10:16).

How can you reject Jesus and make it into heaven?

Let me ask you this:
What is your definition of the Church?

Yes, you are right. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His Church cannot be separated. I reject neither Him nor His Church.
As a matter of fact I strive to be as obedient towards my Master as I possibly can and daily ask for His help in the matter.
Nobody can reject the Lord and still make it into Heaven.

You seem to think that the Church is synonymous with the CC or that it has to be an earthly institution. I firmly disagree with this.
The Church and Jesus Christ cannot be separated, because the body of Christ are all true believers. If the Lord Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Master and my God (which He is) then I am already part of His Church.
If He were not my Master I would not and could not be part of His Church.

Having said that I would also like to make this one thing clear: While I disagree with the idea of the One Church and the CC being synonymous, I do however think that the One Church spreads over the denominations including the Catholic Church, thereby engulfing all those whose Lord Jesus Christ is and who are controlled by Him and excluding all those who give mere lip-service.

May the Lord bless you.

In Him,
Janet

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes, that is the truth. What no response by the stated truth?

Take Care and May God Unit us all in the body of Christ.

Ed

What do you mean. Explain.

 

[Janet1983]

No your reason is not obvious. That you are a fallen away Catholic is obvious. But why you are a fallen away Catholic is not obvious.

Well it should be obvious why I disagree with your notion as I would have to call myself condemned if I did. If I was given perfect Justice by my Master I would be exactly that: condemned. He did however die for me and through His mercy and grace I will not go to hell. He is living in me and He is shaping me.

No you are not. You are a slave of yourself. Because that is what it means, to say I will decide for myself when it comes to faith and morals.
I received a rather cute email yesterday that went: Most people want to serve God…but only as advisers. You fit the picture.

I was bought with a prize. I am owned by somebody other than myself.
I do not expect God to ask me what I would like to do to be fulfilled. I do not expect God to fulfill my dreams. I am His slave. If it does not seem to be like this to you, may the Lord help me to become more obedient to Him and to become more like Jesus Christ.
As I have as my ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

In Him,
Janet

 

[rev_kevin]

They can’t talk to you? You are not a member of the one true church. Your non-denominational at that? You have a identity problem. Bottom line, no matter what the Holy Bible says, you are not a member of the one true church, so you will be wrong.

Take Care and may God Bless!

Ed

You’re correct. Now this may sound confusing but I was raised Catholic, left the Catholic faith and became a Baptist, which I still am, I went to school and got ordained and I use the non-denominational status because my congregation is at nursing homes where there are different religions that I preach to. So inorder not to offend anyone group I use the term non-denominational. I preach to Catholics, Baptist, Methodists, Lutherins. and so on. I hope you understand where I’m comming from and why I chose the non-dom. title.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

IF you are indeed a Christian, then you will follow how the first Christians understood worship.

I think that if you are a Christian You will worship the way Christ did and He kept the Sabbath Luke 4:16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

On the 1st of day of the week Christ rose from the dead, the first Christians recognized the importance of this.

They may have done this, but there is certainly no president for it in the word of God.

We are no longer under the old covenant but the new covenant. What do you mean by this?

Christ being God (that is if you consider Him God) is the Lord of the Sabbath. The 1st day of the week has been referred to as the Lord’s day by the first Christians.

Christ is God whether you consider Him God or not and He is Lord of the Sabbath. So wouldn’t that make the Sabbath the Lord’s day?

Christ rose on the first day of the way, the Holy Spirit came down on Christ’s disciples on the 1st day of the week. Clearly Christ is hollowing the 1st day of the week.

Christ should be hallowed every day of the week, but the 4th commandment is forever.
Ex.31:16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

AS for Mark, Mark was a Catholic and worshipped on the 1st day of the week as weel so what you are trying to show with that quote holds no water.

Mark was a Jew. He kept the Sabbath. What do you mean by “that quote holds no water”? Are you saying the bible holds no water?

That is why I said you are free to continue worshipping on the Sabbath but that is the Jewish worship. Not so Christians.

How do you figure this? Are you saying the ten commandments are only for the Jews and that Christians don’t have to keep them.

Heb9:16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Gal3:15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

These verses tell us that a covenant must be changed before the death of the testator, because after the death of the testator the covenant is confirmed and “no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.” So, if you say that the covenant is changed. You will have to show were that is done before Jesus death.

But this is digressing from the OP.

Ya but pretty important. Just for the sake of discussion suppose you are wrong and the ten commandments are still in force. Won’t you feel a little foolish when you stand before the jugement seat of God and say I thought it was changed because a few apostate people who called themselves Christians said so.

 

[rev_kevin]

Here is a more detailed explanation of Matthew 16:13-19 and why Jesus went all the way to Ceasaria Philippi to rename Simon as Rock and to promise him that he will be the rock upon which Jesus will build His Church.

Background:

Caesaria Philipi is around 20 miles ( a rough two days journey up the mountains) from Galillee.

Now why does our Lord go to all that trouble just for this scene?

Caesaria Philipi which used to be called Panneas was dedicated to the Greek god Pan. When Philip Herod became tetrarch of that region he gave it to Augustus Caesar for some favour so it became Ceasaria Philipi, that is, Ceasar’s city from Philip.

In this region is a humongous rock around 500ft long and 200ft high.

On top of this rock is a huge marble temple with an idol of the god Pan. Philip Herod replaced that idol of Pan with the idol of the divine Ceasar Augustus (emperors were considered divine).

To the left of the rock is a cave and in the cave is a deep hole filled with water which is the source of the Jordan river. The pagans believed this to to be the gates of sheol - the doorway to the underworld.

With that scene in mind, let us now read Matthew 16: 13-19

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
**He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” **
**Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

Comment:

So now we have Jesus standing next to this rock, on top of which, is a temple to a false god (two false gods as a matter of fact) next to which is a cave that is the gate to sheol. He is now saying that He will do something different. He will build the Church of the True God on top of the true rock and that rock is Simon barJonah and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

We even see here a parallel with the sheep/shepherd motif in the commissioning of Peter in John 21. This area and temple used to be dedicated to Pan, the god of shepherds. Here we have Chist the True God giving the promise to Peter who He will later commission to shepherd His sheep.

Steve Ray also notes the implication of the water in the cave. He comments that when you think of Peter being the rock and the water from this Rock now waters Gods’ people.

Also, since this cave is the origin of the Jordan river where Jesus was baptized and went with His disciples when they went baptizing, you can see in this symbolism the whole salvation theology including that of baptism as a sacrament of incorporation into Christ’s Church.

Another thing, and this is very important, neither Jesus nor the Father made any teaching about Jesus’ true identity and mission. This teaching THEY caused to be pronounced through Peter.
Christ could have gone around proclaiming He is the Son of God but He didn’t. He let that be declared through Peter.

If you notice, even His apostles had no real clue as to who Jesus was. Peter cuts through all that speculation and pronounces the TRUTH about Jesus Christ. Through the ages to this very day, his successors continue to pronounce the truth about who Jesus is and what His mission is all about.

Thanks for the history lession but I really don’t think that Jesus said this because he was at this rock, It seems to contradict what everyone, Catholics, have understood what the
meaning of Peter being the rock is I still stick by what I said. By the way how old are you?

 

[rev_kevin]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

On the off change that Benedictus2’s Mother gets the upper hand… let me jump in and offer my thoughts on this. Hopefully, you will not see this as intruding - but, it is an important question, and I really did not want you to wait any longer then necessary… So, here goes…

Now, in all humility, this question has been asked any number of ways for hundreds of years. The idea that THE idea that answers this question lies in the next few sentences, is brash indeed! What ever happens, ultimately, the Holy Spirit will need to guide the minds and hearts of both readers and writers of these posts.

I think it safe to say that at the time of Christ (approximately, 1AD - 33AD) there were a few recognized religions: Jews and Gentiles would be a major classification - and the Jews were divided into rather lax groups perhaps best identified with Herodians and the really penatential ones best identified with the Esenes of Dead Sea Scroll fame. Gentiles were all over the place - from atheists to polytheists to gnostics to a bunch more - truly all ove the place. About 33AD there appeared this splinter group of Jews who said that Christ was the promised Messiah - and then came the Resurrection and this little group claimed Christ was the Son of God - and this caught everyone’s attention. This attention, however, was intensely focused on their active persection and eradication. One of the most famous of the persecutors was Saul of Tarsus. Now, we do not know ‘why’ or ‘how’ or ‘under what conditions’ but the group apparently called itself “The Way” (instead of Christians) and Saul’s mission was to persecute all who followed “The Way” (Acts 24:4). This apparently met with some success on the part of the persecutors in that these persecuted people fled Jerusalem and Saul went out to Damascus to arrest those who had been previously caught and bring them back to Jerusalem (Acts 9:1-2). It is only later that - for some unexplained and unwritten reason - we really do not hear about The Way anymore - rather, their name seems to have changed to Christian by the believers in Antioch (Acts 11:26). And, I think that is the last time a name for the followers of Christ is mentioned in the Bible. But, you know, it does not end there…

The mere fact that something is not written down does not mean it did not happen or did not exist (John 21:25). So, let’s see if we can go backwards and make some sense of this. Sometime from the start to Christ’s Public Ministry (c. 30AD) and the Resurrection at least some of Christ’s followers said they were members of The Way. This would have been the earliest recorded name for the group. Whether the Apostles said they were members of The Way is impossible to say because nothing is recorded - but, somehow the group, or a group that followed Christ had that name. And, for lack of anything else, let’s just say The Way was the name that Christ’s followers were know by.

Simon was called by Christ to join this group and Christ changed Simon’s name to Peter (John 1:42). Later on God the Father selected Peter and gave him the right answer to Christ question (Matt 16:17) and Christ acknowledged this and gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter and the delegated Power of God to bind and lose anything.

All of this is in Scripture - and requires no further documents then what you already have in your hands. Let’s stop there and see if we are in total agreement or if there is an item that needs clarification.

God bless

About “the way” you mentioned. Now Jesus was also called himself “the way” {John 14:6} “I am the way and the truth and the life…”
See Jesus is the “only way” to God the Father. Now as “the way” he is the only path to the Father. By calling themselves “the way” could mean that Jesus is the “true church” because the “only way” to the Father is through Him. They were identifying themselves with Jesus by calling themselves “the way” because Jesus is the “only way” to the Father not one single church. It doesn’t say, "The Catholic church or any single church is the way the truth and the life no one can come to the Father except through the Catholic church or any single church. So they understood that Jesus is the “only way” and by calling themselves “the way” they were telling others that Jesus is the “only way.” Just belonging to a certain church does not give you the way to the Father it can’t do anything like that only Jesus can.

 

[Bill_Pick]

You’re correct. Now this may sound confusing but I was raised Catholic, left the Catholic faith and became a Baptist, which I still am, I went to school and got ordained and I use the non-denominational status because my congregation is at nursing homes where there are different religions that I preach to. So inorder not to offend anyone group I use the term non-denominational. I preach to Catholics, Baptist, Methodists, Lutherins. and so on. I hope you understand where I’m comming from and why I chose the non-dom. title.

rev In reading you post I see you are a ND ( this I knew) now you say you preach to Cathloic,Baptist, ECT,
Now do you tell a Cathloic he can have a Baptism for his infant grandchild but can not have Baptism for his granddaughter,Can you keep all the faith straight,Thats like shootimg craps,how can you keep 4 Bible and be right all the time or wrong,I do not have my glasses so I hope you can read this,PEACE

 

[elvisman]

Yes, you are right. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His Church cannot be separated. I reject neither Him nor His Church.
As a matter of fact I strive to be as obedient towards my Master as I possibly can and daily ask for His help in the matter.
Nobody can reject the Lord and still make it into Heaven.

You seem to think that the Church is synonymous with the CC or that it has to be an earthly institution. I firmly disagree with this.
The Church and Jesus Christ cannot be separated, because the body of Christ are all true believers. If the Lord Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Master and my God (which He is) then I am already part of His Church.
If He were not my Master I would not and could not be part of His Church.

Having said that I would also like to make this one thing clear: While I disagree with the idea of the One Church and the CC being synonymous, I do however think that the One Church spreads over the denominations including the Catholic Church, thereby engulfing all those whose Lord Jesus Christ is and who are controlled by Him and excluding all those who give mere lip-service.

May the Lord bless you.

In Him,
Janet

The problem I have with what you claim is that there is no support in the contextct of Scripture OR the historical Church

The Bible CLEARLY speaks of Church Authority (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).
Jesus fervently prayed for the UNITY of his church (John 17) - and that it remains ONE as he and the Father are one.
**This was shattered by the Protestant Revolt. Can you honestly say that the tens of thousands of differing, bickering sects are the ONE, united Church Jesus prayed for? **Absolutely not. They teach different doctrines:

Some believe in baptismal regeneration - others don’t.
Some believe in soul-sleep - others don’t
Some believe in the Real Presence - others don’t
These are not minor issues but major ones.

**Jesus only established ONE Church - a visible, united Body of believers (Matt. 5:14) - not a splintered mass of denominations and sects or an invisible Church.

If you’re not part of the Church established by Jesus, then you’re not part of his Body and you need to come home.