Will I go to hell?

[Maryann_C]

Hmm…that’s a hard one. I don’t think I can answer in any general way - it would really depend on the situation or particular ethical dilemma. And there are sometimes dilemmas that don’t have any right or good answer - you just have to try to find the lesser of two (or more) evils. So how do you know your choice is a moral one without a solid guiding principal? Morality by definition is a way of living that has a solid guiding set of rules.- 10 commandments for example

However, I’d like to point out that even if humans were depraved maniacs without God/religion, it doesn’t make them any more true. What do you mean here by “true” Either God exists or he doesn’t, and while it’s arguable that belief in his existence leads to morality,it is not the 'belief ’ IN God that leads to morality. Morality exists because of God’s law, which, He has told us in the scriptures, is written on our hearts and without which we are nothing but animals. Animals are not guided by moral law because they do not know right from wrong instinctively but humans do his actual existence is an independent question.

I still haven’t figured out multi quote so my reply is imbeded in your post in purple.

 

[Brooklyn]

I’m not asking you to play God: I understand that, in your system of beliefs, Poseidon and I are destined for hell.

I’m asking you if you agree with what your God will (likely) do with us. Do you think we both deserve to suffer forever, simply for not being convinced of an idea?

I’ll be frank, I don’t think that anyone deserves to suffer forever merely for having a little intellectual honesty and saying, in all humility, “I am not convinced of this claim.” Further, I think that if I seriously thought that there was a God out there who was going to make (or let) people suffer forever for such a minor infraction, I would refuse to worship this God out of a sense of decency.

God doesn’t do anything with you. Jesus Christ died to open the gates of heaven to you. But it is your choice to walk through them. If you decide to turn away from God, then you decide to go to hell. It is not God who makes that decision.

 

[NonServiam]

Poseidon:

If Christians were nothing but a wacky minority

But you think Christians are wacky.

Here’s a tip: the key word in his sentence was “minority.” Christians are not a minority; hence, he is interested in what they think.

Just try reading what he writes instead of reacting to what you think he’s writing.

 

[underacloud]

I believe it is called relativism?

Rubbish. I have not denied any catholic doctrine nor indicated that people are judged acording to different criteria than that defined by the Church, through the catechism or magesterial teaching. I have discussed invincible ignorance - a direct Catholic teaching - and it’s possible mechanisms. If you know if any magesterial teaching that contradicts what I have said, please provide it.

I hold firmly to the teaching of the magesterium. If I have erred, I hope to stand corrected, but I resent people merely accusing me of heresy without any rationale.

 

[NonServiam]

It is not God who makes that decision.

That’s why I put “let” in parentheses: I knew that someone was going to use this weak cop-out.

So do you agree with God’s decision to let someone suffer forever, simply because he is sincerely not convinced of a claim? Do you think that’s right? Fair? That person is deserving of suffering forever?

I’m just trying to wrap my head around your position.

 

[Brooklyn]

I find it curious that you think it’s not valid to ask a question because one is interested in the attitude of a particular group.

I’m not sure how “I’m interested in what group X thinks” could ever possibly be an invalid reason for action. Personal interest is always a valid reason for asking a question.

For example, if I dealt with flat earthers regularly – and if I knew that their beliefs taught them things about non-flat-earthers – then I might very well ask them what they thought was going to happen to me, even though I don’t believe their idea.

Probably because he interacts with lots of people who are religious on a regular basis, and he’s interested in what religious people think on a particular issue. This isn’t so hard to grasp.

I guess when you don’t believe in anything, as is the case with you, there is nothing better to do than just play around with ideas. But it won’t change your destiny. You have rejected God, and he has no choice but to reject you.

I’ll ask you what I asked the OP - does that make you feel better?

 

[Poseidon]

But you think Christians are wacky. You think we are just like flat-earthers, believing in myths and lies. You already know that Christians believe that if you reject God you will go to hell. Why are you asking a question for which you already know the answer? Did you think you would get a different answer here? And even if you do, that is just one person’s opinion, and not official Church teaching. You were a Catholic, so you know the Catholic church teaches that if you turn away from God, he will turn away from you and you will go to hell.

I’ll ask again - does that make you feel better?

1. I do not think Christians are “wacky.” I simply think that they believe something that’s not true. Some of the smartest people I know are Christian, and many of my good friends are Christian.
2. I am not here to “feel better.” I am here to learn. Obviously I didn’t know the answer, or else I wouldn’t have asked. I am not a troll. I am not trying to get people angry. I am trying to learn about what they think, what makes them tick, why they act why they act. Is that so hard to understand? Am I not allowed to be interested in something simply because I don’t believe it’s true? If I met a flat-earther I would most definitely ask why they believe what they believe, even though I think it’s garbage. Maybe you should develop a little intellectual curiosity yourself, instead of telling me I should stop asking questions.

 

[Brooklyn]

That’s why I put “let” in parentheses: I knew that someone was going to use this weak cop-out.

So do you agree with God’s decision to let someone suffer forever, simply because he is sincerely not convinced of a claim? Do you think that’s right? Fair? That person is deserving of suffering forever?

I’m just trying to wrap my head around your position.

You have chosen to reject God. What do you expect him to do? Force you to spend eternity with him when you don’t want to? Hell is God’s mercy, because he is allowing you the freedom to choose your destiny apart from him. Satan is in hell because he doesn’t want to be with God. For you and all others who do not want to be with God, that is where you will be.

Why do you think it will be suffering when you make it plain you do not want to be with God? Wouldn’t it be much worse if God forced you to be with Him when you don’t want to be?

Jesus Christ died to open the gates of heaven to you. But you have to do one thing - you have to say yes to him. You have obviously chosen not to do. Don’t blame God for what you choose.

 

[Poseidon]

I guess when you don’t believe in anything, as is the case with you, there is nothing better to do than just play around with ideas. But it won’t change your destiny. You have rejected God, and he has no choice but to reject you.

I’ll ask you what I asked the OP - does that make you feel better?

You didn’t answer any of his questions, you just attacked him personally. And would you please stop asking “does that make you feel better?” It’s really condescending, and adds nothing to the discussion. Thanks!

 

[NonServiam]

I guess when you don’t believe in anything, as is the case with you

I believe in many things: I believe in life, love, family, friends, art, etc. In fact, I would guess that I believe in many of the things that you do: but one thing I don’t believe in are gods (and not just your god: any gods whatsoever).

The reason I don’t believe in gods is not that I “reject” them – the reason is that there is not sufficient evidence to convince me that any god is real.

You have rejected God, and he has no choice but to reject you.

I still find it very odd that an omnipotent being would be so petty as to allow someone to suffer forever merely because that person is not convinced of a claim. What kind of a being does such a thing? You seriously think that that is fair, just, or good in any way? I find it mind-blowing that you could think that.

I’ll ask you what I asked the OP - does that make you feel better?

No, it makes me curious as to the kind of mind that could seriously accept that.

I find this subject interesting, and so I like talking about it and reading about it. Yes, breaking news: people like talking about things that interest them. Film at eleven.

 

[Brooklyn]

1. I do not think Christians are “wacky.” I simply think that they believe something that’s not true. Some of the smartest people I know are Christian, and many of my good friends are Christian.
2. I am not here to “feel better.” I am here to learn. Obviously I didn’t know the answer, or else I wouldn’t have asked. I am not a troll. I am not trying to get people angry. I am trying to learn about what they think, what makes them tick, why they act why they act. Is that so hard to understand? Am I not allowed to be interested in something simply because I don’t believe it’s true? If I met a flat-earther I would most definitely ask why they believe what they believe, even though I think it’s garbage. Maybe you should develop a little intellectual curiosity yourself, instead of telling me I should stop asking questions.

Well, you’ve gotten your answer. Yes, if you continue to reject God throughout your life, you will go to hell. There is no question about it. So now you know. Is it going to change your life in any way?

I am certainly not angry at all. I do feel very badly for you, though, because you have a chance to spend eternity in heaven with your Creator, with the One who poured his life out on the Cross so you could be with him, and you are choosing, of your own free will, to reject it.

 

[NonServiam]

You have chosen to reject God.

I haven’t chosen anything. I am sincerely unconvinced of claims of this god’s existence (along with claims about the existence of other gods).

What do you expect him to do? Force you to spend eternity with him when you don’t want to?

You’re equivocating. I am in a position where I don’t see sufficient reason to think that the claims of any religion are true. I’m not saying, “I would never want to spend any time with God! Blecch! What a gross old dude!” I’m saying, “I don’t see sufficient reason to think that this religion – or any other religion, for that matter – is true.”

And your God is prepared to let me suffer forever for having the intellectual honesty to think through my position? I’ll ask you again: what kind of a being would do such a thing?

 

[Poseidon]

You have chosen to reject God. What do you expect him to do? Force you to spend eternity with him when you don’t want to? Hell is God’s mercy, because he is allowing you the freedom to choose your destiny apart from him. Satan is in hell because he doesn’t want to be with God. For you and all others who do not want to be with God, that is where you will be.

Why do you think it will be suffering when you make it plain you do not want to be with God? Wouldn’t it be much worse if God forced you to be with Him when you don’t want to be?

Jesus Christ died to open the gates of heaven to you. But you have to do one thing - you have to say yes to him. You have obviously chosen not to do. Don’t blame God for what you choose.

I know this was aimed at NonServiam, but it applies to me as well. First, the reason I reject God is because I don’t think he exists. It’s not because I hate him, am angry at him, don’t want to be with him, or any of that. If I believed that an omnibenevolent, omnipotent being existed who loved me then I’d certainly want to be with him. However I don’t think that there is such a being. I reject God for the same reason I reject Apollo, Thor, Aphrodite, Huitzilopochtle, Freyja, Shiva, and all the other gods and goddesses that have been worshiped over the centuries: I am honestly not convinced that there is any compelling evidence of their existence, so I don’t believe in them.

 

[InnocentFortune]

This seems to be the correct answer, and there’s no real way to get around it. Sure, one can say weak things like, “Only God knows for sure,” or “Maybe you will repent in your last moments…God can work wonders in the heart,” etc., etc., but the real answer to the question is that a non-believer – who has learned all about the religion and who fully understands what the religion teaches about the fate of non-believers – is most likely bound for Hell, a place of pain for all eternity.

The more interesting question, to my mind, is this one: do you think Poseidon deserves that fate? He’s already clearly said that he’s a non-believer because he’s honestly not convinced of the existence of God. Given that situation, do you think he deserves to be in pain forever? (Or, in some revisionist, nicer theologies, do you think he deserves to be shut out of the great reward of Heaven simply because he isn’t convinced of an idea?)

Why or why not do you think this is fair?

I don’t think about concepts of deserve or fairness when thinking about what God does or doesn’t do. It’s not about fair it’s about reality. In other words if an Almighty, All-knowing entity says do this or I’m gonna torture you for eternity are you gonna debate Him or just do it? You don’t believe that such an entity exists so you entertain ideas or whether the threat is fair. If you believed in God the realization of the threat being real would quickly remove such a question from your mind and bring you to immediate humility. But you don’t believe so you ask is it fair. I’m simply telling you, if the threat is real, it doesn’t matter if its fair, does it?

 

[Maryann_C]

Rubbish. I have not denied any catholic doctrine nor indicated that people are judged acording to different criteria than that defined by the Church, through the catechism or magesterial teaching. I have discussed invincible ignorance - a direct Catholic teaching - and it’s possible mechanisms. If you know if any magesterial teaching that contradicts what I have said, please provide it.

I hold firmly to the teaching of the magesterium. If I have erred, I hope to stand corrected, but I resent people merely accusing me of heresy without any rationale.

I did not mean to offend you, but was replying essentially to what another poster mentioned was modernism. I have re- read your post and again I do say that one has to be careful because it can read like relativism. For example :I played devils advocate in another thread and suggested that former speaker of the US House ( because you use the word ‘rubbish’ I wonder if you live in the US) Nancy Pelosi ,a self professed Catholic, can whole heartedly believe that her faith ‘compels her’ to support gay marriage because perhaps she was never properly Catechized. Everyone rightly jumped in and said that at some point an adult has the responsibility for their own beliefs!
I did not mean to pick a fight with you and would prefer to stay with the OPs intent.

 

[Brooklyn]

I believe in many things: I believe in life, love, family, friends, art, etc. In fact, I would guess that I believe in many of the things that you do: but one thing I don’t believe in are gods (and not just your god: any gods whatsoever).

The reason I don’t believe in gods is not that I “reject” them – the reason is that there is not sufficient evidence to convince me that any god is real.

I still find it very odd that an omnipotent being would be so petty as to allow someone to suffer forever merely because that person is not convinced of a claim. What kind of a being does such a thing? You seriously think that that is fair, just, or good in any way? I find it mind-blowing that you could think that.

No, it makes me curious as to the kind of mind that could seriously accept that.

I find this subject interesting, and so I like talking about it and reading about it. Yes, breaking news: people like talking about things that interest them. Film at eleven.

But since you don’t believe in God, and you know for an absolute fact that you are going to die someday, and everything and everyone you know and love is going to die someday, where do you get meaning in life? Everything is fleeting for you, nothing is permanent. You have no choice but to live for the moment, because you never know when it is going to end. It could all be over for you tomorrow or even within the next hour.

The evidence of God is all around us. The very fact that you are alive and breathing should tell you that there is something bigger than you that sustains you. The evidence for God is all around you. As the Psalms 14:1 says: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’”

I’m tired. Good night.

 

[NonServiam]

I’m simply telling you, if the threat is real, it doesn’t matter if its fair, does it?

This response strikes me as bizarre.

Imagine if a Mafia boss was going to break my legs because I can’t pay some outrageous loan-sharking fee. The Mafia boss in this hypothetical example is certainly real, and he is – compared to me, anyway – incredibly powerful. He has the power to crush me like a bug, and there is nothing I can do about it. The threat is real, and I know he can and will do it, etc.

But I can still question whether his action is fair, can’t I? The mere fact that a more powerful being is going to harm me in some way doesn’t invalidate the question of whether that harm is deserved or not.

 

[NonServiam]

But since you don’t believe in God, and you know for an absolute fact that you are going to die someday, and everything and everyone you know and love is going to die someday, where do you get meaning in life?

I’m not so childish that I need things to last forever in order for me to find meaning in them.

Meaning is necessarily individual, attributed to things by individuals in the here and now. The fact that my family and friends are not permanent in no way diminishes the value that they have for me right now.

 

[InnocentFortune]

This response strikes me as bizarre.

Imagine if a Mafia boss was going to break my legs because I can’t pay some outrageous loan-sharking fee. The Mafia boss in this hypothetical example is certainly real, and he is – compared to me, anyway – incredibly powerful. He has the power to crush me like a bug, and there is nothing I can do about it. The threat is real, and I know he can and will do it, etc.

But I can still question whether his action is fair, can’t I? The mere fact that a more powerful being is going to harm me in some way doesn’t invalidate the question of whether that harm is deserved or not.

I didn’t say your question is “invalid” I said it was pointless. The answer of fairness doesn’t effect the outcome of whether or not you’ll be damned. I would argue that even asking the question is a danger because it implies God is evil which He is not going to like coming from the likes of us.

 

[mab23]

its for God to decide

come back to the faith, even on the off chance that what you believe is true…what did you really lose

but if your wrong… well…

I was an athiest for a second in my life, but I am much Happier with God in my life!