A human need to believe in God is irrelevant to the question of whether he exists or not. We certainly may want him to exist, and it may give meaning to our lives to think that he exists, but ultimately that makes no difference. I may “need” to think that my grandmother is alive and my life may be devoid of meaning without her, but that doesn’t change the fact that she isn’t. The universe doesn’t care what I need.
So you would also say that if I were being threatened by a Mafia boss, it would similarly be “pointless” to ask whether I deserved such harm and that I should simply submit to my fate without protest?
I for one, am quite happy to postulate this question with you and I would say to all who are frustrated with your question…if you don’t ask you shall not receive…but I will grant that some people seem to have become a little jumpy with some posters lately who seem to be here not for honest debate rather just to ‘go fishing’ here. So please understand the "why are you here and why do you bother "question is legitimate.
You differ from NonServiam however in that you try to make it a non passionate ‘intellectual’ I don’t believe in fairies kind of argument where as NS it seems is more obviously trying to bait people into a point where NS can say 'what kind of loving God does that and why would I believe in that kind of God" kind of trump speech. At least ,you are less obvious with your argument even though, as I pointed out you mention the fact that you are a ‘moral’ atheist. You were trying to say ( to me at least it seems this way) “why would a loving God send a good person to hell” be honest did I call you out??
Innocent…NS is leading you into a trap. Let it go NS is just playing with you and is just piggy backing off the OPs post looking for a :slapfight:.
You may have a point here. There are definitely lots of people who simply want to fish for arguments, but I don’t think I’m doing that. I certainly want debate, but I’m not trying to get people riled up or angry.
Hmm…definitely not at first, because I thought there would be a little more dissent of opinion rather than almost everyone saying yes. I think “why would a loving God send a good person to hell” became the more important question once the first question was answered. I don’t see anything wrong with that though - it’s the logical progression of the discussion, so there’s no reason not to ask it!You differ from NonServiam however in that you try to make it a non passionate ‘intellectual’ I don’t believe in fairies kind of argument where as NS it seems is more obviously trying to bait people into a point where NS can say 'what kind of loving God does that and why would I believe in that kind of God" kind of trump speech. At least ,you are less obvious with your argument even though, as I pointed out you mention the fact that you are a ‘moral’ atheist. You were trying to say ( to me at least it seems this way) “why would a loving God send a good person to hell” be honest did I call you out??
I am not “leading” anyone into a “trap,” nor am I “playing with” anyone. I’m asking serious questions about an intellectual position seriously held by some people here.
So far I think you have compared God, who created you, whose knowledge and wisdom are infinitely beyond you, to a mafia boss and called Him a tyrant. And I think you are advocating “standing up to Him” and giving Him a piece of our minds. Did I get that right?
But God does and hopefully one day you will have your ‘proof’’ Thomas…just pray it is not too late for you and that proof is not the burn of sadness as you see our Lord’s tears as He mourns the loss of your soul.
The problem is that I can’t just start believing in God again. It’s not something I chose, it’s something that I concluded after a lot of reading and thought. I can no sooner make myself believe in God than I could make myself believe anything else I believe to be false.its for God to decide
come back to the faith, even on the off chance that what you believe is true…what did you really lose
but if your wrong… well…
I was an athiest for a second in my life, but I am much Happier with God in my life!
Yes they have you just didn’t like it. You have been told that we are not the judge of what you deserve- God is.
I gave you a straight answer. Yes you will be damned: fairness is judged by God not me but realty is He can make those judgements because of what He is. You can cry foul all you want I’m sure everybody in Hell does the same.
A satisfying resolution to the problem of evil and problem of hell, an explanation of how omniscience and free will don’t contradict each other, evidence that God exists, reason to believe that this god is Yahweh and not one of the other millions of gods that have existed, and the list goes on.
Fair enough…I just get a little touchy at being accused of heresy…even if it was by another poster. Even if my post may “read like relativism”, there is nothing in it that contradicts Church teaching (or if there is, I hope to be corrected).I did not mean to offend you, but was replying essentially to what another poster mentioned was modernism. I have re- read your post and again I do say that one has to be careful because it can read like relativism. For example :I played devils advocate in another thread and suggested that former speaker of the US House ( because you use the word ‘rubbish’ I wonder if you live in the US) Nancy Pelosi ,a self professed Catholic, can whole heartedly believe that her faith ‘compels her’ to support gay marriage because perhaps she was never properly Catechized. Everyone rightly jumped in and said that at some point an adult has the responsibility for their own beliefs!
I did not mean to pick a fight with you and would prefer to stay with the OPs intent.
Fair enough at least you are honest! it is a very common question the “why would a loving God allow” question and the answer is already in this thread… basically because He loves us so much that He allows us total free will because only then when we freely choose Him does He ( and we) know that our love is genuine because he wants us to be His family not His slaves. …So natural progression will follow BUT how can a loving God allow …children to be harmed for example or any of the other evil…a tough one to swallow I know , but again it is our free will that chooses evil that allows evil to exist.Hmm…definitely not at first, because I thought there would be a little more dissent of opinion rather than almost everyone saying yes. I think “why would a loving God send a good person to hell” became the more important question once the first question was answered. I don’t see anything wrong with that though - it’s the logical progression of the discussion, so there’s no reason not to ask it!
What? We should use reason, and appreciate it as a gift from God. We shouldn’t worship it as an alternative god.
No. I’ve compared two situations in which I am to be harmed.
I knew it!
Again, this is like asking, “How can you know that “smelling bad” exists if you do not know that there is an “ultimate good smell”?”
In response to the morality question, I think that there are certain morals that are hardwired into the human brain. Whether God or evolution put them there is an entirely different question, but we have to have morals if we want our society to function. For example, take lying. If we did not have the assumption that when someone is talking they are telling the truth then society couldn’t function, because communication would have no purpose. The same goes for stealing. If we didn’t have a standard by which we live, which includes no stealing, we couldn’t have society. If I saw you and assumed you were going to steal my apple and whatever else you could get your hands on I’d want nothing to do with you, and we couldn’t form a society. Killing, raping, and most other big moral issues follow a similar pattern. It would simply be inconceivable for a society to work without these morals, and that’s why we have them.