Will I go to hell?

[Maryann_C]

A satisfying resolution to the problem of evil and problem of hell, an explanation of how omniscience and free will don’t contradict each other, evidence that God exists, reason to believe that this god is Yahweh and not one of the other millions of gods that have existed, and the list goes on.

And if God does exist then I certainly hope to find my proof as well!

So I am guessing you completely reject the scriptures as any kind of historically accurate document then ,contrary to many learned ,secular , historians.?..I just read about this recently will have to find my source sorry can not quote right now.

Do you believe that Jesus is a historical figure that really existed?

I guess a personal miracle might not even do it for you at this moment.

 

[Poseidon]

What? We should use reason, and appreciate it as a gift from God. We shouldn’t worship it as an alternative god.

No one worships reason. We use it as a tool to decipher the truth. I consider reason, and its sister, science, to be the best tools for discovering truth. I do not hold blind faith to be a valid tool. I also do not hold desire (I really want to believe X) to be a valid tool for discovering truth.

 

[NonServiam]

Do you believe that Jesus is a historical figure that really existed?

Whether or not there was a real person upon whom the Gospel legends were based is a very different question than “did all the supernatural events depicted in the Gospels really happen?”

I would submit that no written account from so long ago – even if such accounts were eyewitness accounts, which the Gospels are not – could demonstrate that something supernatural had happened.

 

[Poseidon]

So I am guessing you completely reject the scriptures as any kind of historically accurate document then ,contrary to many learned ,secular , historians.?..I just read about this recently will have to find my source sorry can not quote right now.

Do you believe that Jesus is a historical figure that really existed?

I guess a personal miracle might not even do it for you at this moment.

I’d be very interested to read the sources you mentioned.

But no, I don’t completely reject the historical validity of the scriptures. There certainly may be plenty of historical truth to them, but there also is probably a lot of embellishment in there too. The four Gospels do not all tell the same story, so they can’t all be 100% correct. I just assume a smaller percentage of “correctness” than you do.

Yes, I think Jesus probably existed.

 

[InnocentFortune]

No. I’ve compared two situations in which I am to be harmed.

Though I am not powerful enough to change the outcome in either situation, I think it is appropriate for us to talk about whether I deserve the harm in each of those situations.

You are strangely reluctant to talk about whether I deserve the punishment of hell: I understand that you think that God is the ultimate judge and the arbiter and all of that. I’m just asking if you agree with what he’s going to do (which is either send me to eternal pain or allow me to go to eternal pain, whichever formulation you prefer).

Look, I’ll even make it easy for you: you believe that your God is absolutely good and just, do you not? Then it follows that anything he does must be good and just. Someone who is just gives others exactly what they deserve. Thus, by your own definitions, you must believe that I deserve to suffer forever for merely not being convinced of a claim.

So why didn’t you just say that to begin with? Personally, I think it’s because there’s a part of you that knows perfectly well that it’s neither fair nor good.

Frankly yes I agree on some level that you deserve what you get because you have this silly tough guy attitude about how you are gonna give God a piece of your mind. You are asking for it. This isn’t a joke. If you keep up with that ridiculous position that an infinite God, All mighty All powerful Eternal has to explain himself to the likes of you, then you are way overdue for a celestial beating. It’s why I keep coming back to faith. If you believed that this God exists you would be instantly humbled. You be better off I’m my opinion if you simply said “if God exists then I’m screwed so I am glad He doesn’t”. But the way you carry on like you deserve some answers with the entitled attitude of a welfare queen…well lets just say I kinda wanna see you get put in your place.

 

[presidentjlh]

This seems to be the correct answer, and there’s no real way to get around it. Sure, one can say weak things like, “Only God knows for sure,” or “Maybe you will repent in your last moments…God can work wonders in the heart,” etc., etc., but the real answer to the question is that a non-believer – who has learned all about the religion and who fully understands what the religion teaches about the fate of non-believers – is most likely bound for Hell, a place of pain for all eternity.

The more interesting question, to my mind, is this one: do you think Poseidon deserves that fate? He’s already clearly said that he’s a non-believer because he’s honestly not convinced of the existence of God. Given that situation, do you think he deserves to be in pain forever? (Or, in some revisionist, nicer theologies, do you think he deserves to be shut out of the great reward of Heaven simply because he isn’t convinced of an idea?)

Why or why not do you think this is fair?

He doesn’t believe in God, ergo, he doesn’t want to be with God.

He’s made his choice. God will respect it. It’s plenty fair. It’s not an outcome I want to see, nor one that God wants to see, but if that’s his choice, it will be respected.

 

[vera_dicere]

Except that I didn’t reject him. I never said “screw you Christ, I don’t need you anymore.” I never chose not to believe in him. I don’t believe in him for the same reason you don’t believe in Santa Claus, and I couldn’t force myself to believe in him even if I wanted to.

The problem with that comparision is there aren’t entire bodies of written records detailing the life and miracles of “Santa Claus the coke icon” - granted St. Nicholas existed and even punched a guy in the face for denying the divninity of Christ.

God offers everyone the gift of faith, and you have rejected that in response to faulty intellectual knowledge. If you had taken the gift of faith, or even if you didn’t, you could have very easily learned your way back into belief in God, intellectually and academically.

As for you going to Hell, you have rejected God by not believing in him, you can mince words and meanings all you want, but rejection it is. On your day of judgement, if you reach it still not beleiving in God, then God will not force himself on you, and the only place you can go where you will be seperate from God is Hell.

Whether you get there is between you and God. Unless you get hit by a bus or get cancer or something, you will likely live for a good amount of time. Plenty can happen to a person during even just ten years. You could think your way back into the Church. Or you may end up bitter and twisted and hating everything about Christainity.

As it stands, I dont’ think you know what you’re choosing not to beleive in, so maybe God will give you a pass for being obtuse. Who knows? No one here can answer your question about your eternal destination.

 

[Poseidon]

He doesn’t believe in God, ergo, he doesn’t want to be with God.

He’s made his choice. God will respect it. It’s plenty fair. It’s not an outcome I want to see, nor one that God wants to see, but if that’s his choice, it will be respected.

Not believing in God and not wanting to be with him are two completely different things. When I first came to realize that there is no God I was devastated, and while I didn’t believe in him I wanted to very badly.

 

[underacloud]

Actually, it may be argued that even merely vincible ignorance would sufficiently lessen their culpability.

This is the kind of postulating however that ,to me at least, boarders on a person being able to make a very relativistic argument and could lead a person to stumble so I personally would not go there. We can do the ‘what if’ 'dance all day long but truth is not dodgy. ultimately there WILL be a judgement.

Not postulating at all, it’s addressed directly by Jimmy Akin in the article I linked to:

“Invincible ignorance removes culpability for the sins against faith, merely vincible ignorance diminishes culpability (sometimes to the point of being venial), crass or supine ignorance will affect culpability for them little or not at all, and hard hearted, affected ignorance will increase culpability for them.”

Actually, I now see that my link didn’t work, whoops. Here is hopefully a working link:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1203

The OP asked a simple question: “do you believe that it is possible for a former-Catholic atheist who lives a moral life to get into heaven?”

The only possible conclusion based on the entirety of Church teaching is yes, it is possible. The detailed answer is of course more complex.

 

[NonServiam]

Frankly yes I agree on some level that you deserve what you get because you have this silly tough guy attitude about how you are gonna give God a piece of your mind.

The question was whether you think I deserve to suffer forever merely because I am not convinced of a claim.

Do you think I deserve that? Is that a fair punishment for not being convinced of a claim? If you clearly say that you think so, without qualification, I’ll stop pressing you on the issue.

If you keep up with that ridiculous position that an infinite God, All mighty All powerful Eternal has to explain himself to the likes of you, then you are way overdue for a celestial beating.

You’re not doing your god any favors by depicting him as some kind of insecure cosmic bully.

Honestly, I’m pretty sure most other religious believers would be embarrassed by such a depiction of their god.

lets just say I kinda wanna see you get put in your place.

Well, we know all that we need to know about you now, don’t we?

 

[Maryann_C]

In response to the morality question, I think that there are certain morals that are hardwired into the human brain. Whether God or evolutionDo you REALLY think that morals are a product of evolution??? seriously??? we came from pond scum and learned the difference between right and wrong? OK I will play along …then why only humans? Why do WE have to teach animals desirable and non desirable reactions by the use of positive and negative stimuli? I train animals …trust me I know put them there is an entirely different question, but we have to have morals if we want our society to function. What constitutes a functioning society and by who’s principals? For example, take lying. If we did not have the assumption that when someone is talking they are telling the truth then society couldn’t function, because communication would have no purposeWhy ? because humans have the ability to intentionally deceive for ulterior motives other than self preservation ( might that not be the result of ‘original sin’? )which differs from the animal who ‘evolved’ camouflage to assist in it’s preservation by being able to better hunt it’s lunch to survive. THAT is survival of the fittest which is different from a human who lies to cover up their wrong doing. WHY? because we have a conscience- that is the “hardwiring” as you call it! How did that evolve? . The same goes for stealing. If we didn’t have a standard by which we live, which includes no stealing, we couldn’t have societySure we could , it just would not be a very pleasant society it would be more …well we would be like animals ,without a conscience wouldn’t we?. If I saw you and assumed you were going to steal my apple and whatever else you could get your hands on I’d want nothing to do with you, and we couldn’t form a society.Exactly not good for you , but still deliciously good for me- who would say who’s good is the better good without a higher guiding proncipal? Killing, raping, and most other big moral issues follow a similar pattern. It would simply be inconceivable for a society to work without these morals, and that’s why we have them. That may be why but it does not explain HOW we got our morals does it?

And I know that evil exists because I see things that I know to be evil. How do I know them to be evil? I’m not sure.Because of your hardwired conscience Instinct, or maybe society has put the knowledge into me.So where did society get it from? But I see pictures of concentration camps and I see evil. I see children forced into slavery, prostitution, and child soldiers, and I see evil. Maybe God put that sense of evil into me, or maybe society did. Maybe I’m just reacting in the way evolution hardwired me to react. But just because evil and good do exist, it doesn’t mean that ultimate truth does.

sure it does because without the plumb-line you don’t have a clue what is off. Me thinks you ought to change your status to agnostic rather!

 

[InnocentFortune]

Not believing in God and not wanting to be with him are two completely different things. When I first came to realize that there is no God I was devastated, and while I didn’t believe in him I wanted to very badly.

I understand that and can sympathize in some ways. But if you truly have the will to believe in God, I believe you could seek Him out. I would ask what have you done to cultivate the faith in you? If nothing then no wonder it died. If you kept pounding yourself with heresy, what did you expect to happen. To some extent, what you put into your mind will form you. If unfaithful books movies, etc is what you fed yourself… then there you go. As natural as drinking cyanide. If you still have the will to keep the faith fill your mind with something that will cultivate it.

 

[NonServiam]

Do you REALLY think that morals are a product of evolution??? seriously???

Yes. Social animals of all kinds have behavioral “rules” for their groups.

why only humans?

It’s not only humans. Read a few books about evolutionary psychology or about secular moral philosophy.

 

[presidentjlh]

Not believing in God and not wanting to be with him are two completely different things. When I first came to realize that there is no God I was devastated, and while I didn’t believe in him I wanted to very badly.

But there is nothing to be concerned of then if there is no God, yes? Ergo, you don’t care if you’re with Him or not, because He’s not real, according to you.

Certainly, I understand your point, that if it was scientifically proven that God is real, certainly you’d believe in Him and want to be with Him. I understand that. If I had the choice, no one would go to Hell, but that’s because sins against me are finite in nature, because I’m finite in nature. A sin against God is a sin against the infinite, therefore, it is of infinite gravity.

Hell isn’t God’s torture chamber. It’s the place where people go that do not accept Him. Your decision that you die with is the decision you will give to God. You would reject Him even then knowing He exists, because basically, your decision is set in stone at death. Nothing, absolutely nothing pains God more than to see one of His children reject Him, but that is the nature of sin.

But, while you don’t like this answer, we just don’t know the full story about God’s mercy. I hope that God accepts you regardless, the statements I make are not something I take joy in. I don’t take joy in the idea of people suffering in Hell. It greatly disturbs and pains me. I don’t pretend to comprehend it entirely either. I have had my doubts, anyone who says they haven’t are either liars, insane, or are Jesus Christ Himself.

This is a topic far beyond the scope of most lay people, no offense to anyone, I include myself in that group.

 

[NonServiam]

But if you truly have the will to believe in God, I believe you could seek Him out. I would ask what have you done to cultivate the faith in you?

This is entirely backwards. A person who cares about what is true will go where the evidence leads: deciding that you want something to be true and then stirring up your subjective sense of enthusiasm until you feel like it’s true is absolutely not a way to gain insight into reality at all.

 

[Maryann_C]

Good night all …I am done. It was pleasant . Posiden I will pray for you…by the way I find it funny that you say you don’t believe in any gods given your screen name here!

 

[Poseidon]

I understand that and can sympathize in some ways. But if you truly have the will to believe in God, I believe you could seek Him out. I would ask what have you done to cultivate the faith in you? If nothing then no wonder it died. If you kept pounding yourself with heresy, what did you expect to happen. To some extent, what you put into your mind will form you. If unfaithful books movies, etc is what you fed yourself… then there you go. As natural as drinking cyanide. If you still have the will to keep the faith fill your mind with something that will cultivate it.

I was actually quite a good Catholic for most of my life. I’m not sure what you mean by “pounding yourself with heresy” but I don’t think I did anything that could be called that. But my question to you is why should I seek out God if I don’t believe there is a god to seek out? It’s like me telling you to seek out Odin. You’d call me crazy, because obviously there is no Odin, so there’s nothing to seek.

 

[InnocentFortune]

The question was whether you think I deserve to suffer forever merely because I am not convinced of a claim.

Do you think I deserve that? Is that a fair punishment for not being convinced of a claim? If you clearly say that you think so, without qualification, I’ll stop pressing you on the issue.

You’re not doing your god any favors by depicting him as some kind of insecure cosmic bully.

Honestly, I’m pretty sure most other religious believers would be embarrassed by such a depiction of their god.

Well, we know all that we need to know about you now, don’t we?

What did I hurt your feelings? You wanted straight answers and you got them. Don’t wine about how it is unfair. If you want to spend your life complaining about how its not fair then you get what you deserve…forever. I warned a friend once not to go sleeping around. Didn’t listen and she caught AIDS and died. Was it fair? Didn’t matter because it happened to her anyway. You are going to hell. Is it fair. Doesn’t matter. Grow up and deal with it.

 

[InnocentFortune]

I was actually quite a good Catholic for most of my life. I’m not sure what you mean by “pounding yourself with heresy” but I don’t think I did anything that could be called that. But my question to you is why should I seek out God if I don’t believe there is a god to seek out? It’s like me telling you to seek out Odin. You’d call me crazy, because obviously there is no Odin, so there’s nothing to seek.

I told you to seek out God because you said that you wanted to have faith. If that moment has passed I’m sorry…don’t know what to tell you… If you’re question is that are you damned…yes. Sorry.

 

[JacarandaPurple]

No one worships reason. We use it as a tool to decipher the truth. I consider reason, and its sister, science, to be the best tools for discovering truth. I do not hold blind faith to be a valid tool. I also do not hold desire (I really want to believe X) to be a valid tool for discovering truth.

Au contraire, mon frere! There are plenty of people who worship reason. Your spiritual brother Christopher Hitchens comes to mind, among others.

I too hold reason and science in high esteem. They are the tools given us to discover God’s truth. In many ways the Catholic Church was the midwife of science. Did you know the first genetic scientist was a Catholic monk? I could give you lots of examples of the Catholic faith’s sisterhood with and support of the sciences.