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underacloud
Guest
That is quite an accusation. Please point out the heresy.
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Poseidon
Guest
I agree with your final thought, and I actually have done that (I’ve got nothing to lose by doing it, right?). But the reason I ask is not because I deep-down believe they are real, it’s because I want to hear what people (Catholics specifically) have to say on the topic. Thank you for your answer though!
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Maryann_C
Guest
But with all due respect how can you know something is ethical without knowing that there is ultimately truly right and wrong?
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NonServiam
Guest
This seems to be the correct answer, and there’s no real way to get around it. Sure, one can say weak things like, “Only God knows for sure,” or “Maybe you will repent in your last moments…God can work wonders in the heart,” etc., etc., but the real answer to the question is that a non-believer – who has learned all about the religion and who fully understands what the religion teaches about the fate of non-believers – is most likely bound for Hell, a place of pain for all eternity.
The more interesting question, to my mind, is this one: do you think Poseidon deserves that fate? He’s already clearly said that he’s a non-believer because he’s honestly not convinced of the existence of God. Given that situation, do you think he deserves to be in pain forever? (Or, in some revisionist, nicer theologies, do you think he deserves to be shut out of the great reward of Heaven simply because he isn’t convinced of an idea?)
Why or why not do you think this is fair?
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Poseidon
Guest
Exactly!!! I admit I’m a little annoyed at all the people who instead of answering the question, question my motives for asking it.
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Maryann_C
Guest
I believe it is called relativism?
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NonServiam
Guest
This is sort of like asking, “How can you know something smells good without knowing that there is ultimately truly good smelling and bad smelling?”
There doesn’t need to be some “ultimate nice smell” for us to say, “Gee, that smells nice!”
And there doesn’t need to be some “ultimate good” for us to say, “Gee that was a good act.”
J
JacarandaPurple
Guest
Egads, I pointed out SEVERAL times that the OP does not qualify under invincible ignorance! Maryann, why are you implying that I think he does?
As to “innocent” I meant innocent of personal sin. Original Sin is up to God to deal with when it comes to the unbaptized, who are so through no fault of their own.
As we have been instructed about unbaptized babies who die, we trust them to God’s mercy. I, for one, cannot fathom how the richness of that mercy would condemn either babies or souls denied the chance to know Him to the eternal torture of Hell.
As to “innocent” I meant innocent of personal sin. Original Sin is up to God to deal with when it comes to the unbaptized, who are so through no fault of their own.
As we have been instructed about unbaptized babies who die, we trust them to God’s mercy. I, for one, cannot fathom how the richness of that mercy would condemn either babies or souls denied the chance to know Him to the eternal torture of Hell.
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Poseidon
Guest
Hmm…that’s a hard one. I don’t think I can answer in any general way - it would really depend on the situation or particular ethical dilemma. And there are sometimes dilemmas that don’t have any right or good answer - you just have to try to find the lesser of two (or more) evils.
However, I’d like to point out that even if humans were depraved maniacs without God/religion, it doesn’t make them any more true. Either God exists or he doesn’t, and while it’s arguable that belief in his existence leads to morality, his actual existence is an independent question.
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Brooklyn
Guest
No.
There are people who believe that the earth is flat. I think they’re completely wrong and I’m certainly not going to ask them about it because I don’t believe anything they would tell me. If the OP was searching for answers, if he said I’m not sure what to believe, then I could understand this question. But he has completely settled the matter in his mind, and he thinks that anything religious people say is completely false. So I ask again, why does he care what we think?
And again I say, the God he doesn’t believe in would never force him into a heaven he doesn’t believe in. The only alternative is hell.
M
Maryann_C
Guest
I would say you are about to take the thread on a different tangent not what the OP intended. We are not God and can not judge who deserves to go to heaven or hell, to aks the question is to cause a person to stumble.
T
trogiah
Guest
Jesus is very clear about who receives God’s forgiveness and who receives God’s condemnation:
“If you forgive others their sins, then God will forgive you your sins. If you do not forgive others their sins, then God will not forgive you your sins.”
“The measure with which you measure will be used to measure you.”
“Blessed are the merciful, they shall be shown mercy.”
The story of the unforgiving servant is to long to rewrite here but it says the same thing.
If you practice forgiveness, then forgiveness shall be yours. If you practice condemnation, then condemnation shall be yours.
All my human experience and understanding tell me that this is as true for atheists as it is for devout believers of any faith as well as for anyone in between.
Peace
Jim
“If you forgive others their sins, then God will forgive you your sins. If you do not forgive others their sins, then God will not forgive you your sins.”
“The measure with which you measure will be used to measure you.”
“Blessed are the merciful, they shall be shown mercy.”
The story of the unforgiving servant is to long to rewrite here but it says the same thing.
If you practice forgiveness, then forgiveness shall be yours. If you practice condemnation, then condemnation shall be yours.
All my human experience and understanding tell me that this is as true for atheists as it is for devout believers of any faith as well as for anyone in between.
Peace
Jim
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Poseidon
Guest
If Christians were nothing but a wacky minority like the flat-earthers are, then I wouldn’t ask. As it is they are something like 1/3 the world’s population and the majority of America’s, where I live. So I think it’s pretty important to know how Christians think, and what their opinions are.
M
Maryann_C
Guest
I am afraid you will have to quote where I imply this. I do not think it was me because I do not think he does either. Perhaps I worded my post wrong to make you think this.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Because there is such a thing as natural law. God made us all to know that some things are right and wrong - killing, adultery, lying, cheating, stealing. We all know instinctively that these things are wrong. That is official Church teaching.
From the Catechism:
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.
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NonServiam
Guest
I find it curious that you think it’s not valid to ask a question because one is interested in the attitude of a particular group.
I’m not sure how “I’m interested in what group X thinks” could ever possibly be an invalid reason for action. Personal interest is always a valid reason for asking a question.
For example, if I dealt with flat earthers regularly – and if I knew that their beliefs taught them things about non-flat-earthers – then I might very well ask them what they thought was going to happen to me, even though I don’t believe their idea.
Probably because he interacts with lots of people who are religious on a regular basis, and he’s interested in what religious people think on a particular issue. This isn’t so hard to grasp.
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InnocentFortune
Guest
Modernism is heresy. To reformulate church dogma in such a way as to change its meaning in conformity to contemporary attitudes is modernism. The Church teaches that outside the church there is no salvation. There is a POSSIBILITY that those who are invincibly ignorant MIGHT be saved by God’s grace somehow but such a possibility has not been revealed to the church only theorized. Don’t blame me, I don’t make the rules so I’m not trying to keep anybody out of heaven. It is what it is.
Let’s not sugarcoat for this person. He or she has become an apostate and as such the church teaches that you will be damned if he or she does not repent. No good is served by equivocating.
Poseidon: You asked a simple question. I gave you the straight undiluted answer. Even if you disagree I hope you respect the fact that I give it to you plain instead of patronizing you by saying that you’ll be fine because you’re ignorant (which I would find more insulting anyway.)
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NonServiam
Guest
I’m not asking you to play God: I understand that, in your system of beliefs, Poseidon and I are destined for hell.
I’m asking you if you agree with what your God will (likely) do with us. Do you think we both deserve to suffer forever, simply for not being convinced of an idea?
I’ll be frank, I don’t think that anyone deserves to suffer forever merely for having a little intellectual honesty and saying, in all humility, “I am not convinced of this claim.” Further, I think that if I seriously thought that there was a God out there who was going to make (or let) people suffer forever for such a minor infraction, I would refuse to worship this God out of a sense of decency.
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Poseidon
Guest
And I appreciate that. However, I am much more interested in hearing “no, because…” than just straight up “no.” I do appreciate your bluntness though.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
But you think Christians are wacky. You think we are just like flat-earthers, believing in myths and lies. You already know that Christians believe that if you reject God you will go to hell. Why are you asking a question for which you already know the answer? Did you think you would get a different answer here? And even if you do, that is just one person’s opinion, and not official Church teaching. You were a Catholic, so you know the Catholic church teaches that if you turn away from God, he will turn away from you and you will go to hell.
I’ll ask again - does that make you feel better?
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