Will non-Catholic Christians who reject Catholic teaching obtain salvation?

[JKirkLVNV]

Giver:

I wonder who is to say what is the true Church of God? The Catholic Church says they are and quote scripture and history to back up their claim, but other churches do the same. For me I like the Scripture where Jesus tells us: (Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

Jesus sent us His Holy Spirit to teach us. If a person is for Jesus, do you believe He would let one of His own be condemned just because they didn’t happen to go to someone else’s (one and only true church)?

I personally haven’t found any church that, in my option, teaches the whole Word of God. I would not ask anyone to follow what I believe Jesus wants us to live. My personal belief is: we all need to go to Jesus personally and let Him (Holy Spirit) guide us into how to live this life.

God bless you,
Giver

Notice your post: “personally,” and “personal.” That is why Christendom is splintered. People have, from the first century onward, hived off from the Church Christ founded (and surely we can agree that whatever Church you believe Him to have founded, He did intend to found ONE Church) and done their own “personal” thing.

I’m not condemning anyone. I’m the only Catholic in my family. I do not believe that faithful Christians who are not formally Catholic will go to hell, providing that they persist in Charity and die in a state of grace. Nonetheless, I still believe that the Catholic Church alone has Christ’s mandate to BE the Church on earth.

 

[Giver]

(Matthew 10:34-36) “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household.”

I quoted this Scripture because maybe unity isn’t what is important to God. In fact to me the most important thing is to hear the Word of the Lord and live it. The only way I know for sure of anything is to have God tell me.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces; I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Yours in Christ,
Giver

 

[gez722]

Giver:

I wonder who is to say what is the true Church of God? The Catholic Church says they are and quote scripture and history to back up their claim, but other churches do the same.

Giver,
To the best of my knowledge, no other Christian church makes this claim. Are you referring to non-Christian churches?

God Bless,
Gary

 

[Giver]

gez722:

Giver,
To the best of my knowledge, no other Christian church makes this claim. Are you referring to non-Christian churches?

God Bless,
Gary

Yes! Christian Churches. Greek Orthodox, Eastern Christianity Churches, and I have had other people tell me their church was before the Catholic Church. The Eastern Church says that the Roman Catholic Church is the first protestant Church.

Yours in Christ,
Giver

 

[AnnettefromTX]

Giver:

I wonder … For me I like …I personally … My personal belief is…Giver

Well, you’re not alone, since there are approximately 30,000 Unity Churches of the I Personally Believe now in existance.

 

[mikew262]

Elzee:

But what if they learn about the Church, see all the evidence, but for one reason or another still don’t believe it’s the Church Jesus founded. In other words, all the evidence in the world doesn’t convince them even though it’s right in front of them. In their own minds, they are NOT rejecting Christ’s Church.

I agree.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

(Matthew 10:34-36) A) “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household.”

I quoted this Scripture because maybe unity isn’t what is important to God. In fact to me the most important thing is to hear the Word of the Lord and live it. The only way I know for sure of anything is to have God tell me.

(Matthew 7:21) B) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces; I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Yours in Christ,
Giver

A) Contextually, you cannot cite this passage to assert that God doesn’t want His people to be in unity. This passage is specific to the discord that will inevitiably lie between the follower of Christ and the world (either the larger world or perhaps the smaller world, ie, his or her own family). What you assert would directly contradict what Christ desired as expressed in the Great High Priestly Prayer after the Lord’s Supper (“that they may be one, even as You and I, Father, are One,” paraphrased).

B) This second verse has been the ages-old assertion of the Catholic Church. We don’t say that merely being Catholic saves you. It doesn’t. You have to follow Christ (“the will of My Father”), you have to persist in Charity (love), Faith, Hope, obedience.

You would do well to learn what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches rather than to make assertions about what you THINK the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[petra]

(Matthew 10:34-36) “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household.”

I quoted this Scripture because maybe unity isn’t what is important to God. In fact to me the most important thing is to hear the Word of the Lord and live it. The only way I know for sure of anything is to have God tell me.

You have completely taken the scripture in Matthew out of context. That is saying that we should expect that there will be tension between believers and non-believers. Sometimes the division will cut through families.

If unity of believers is not important to God, why did Jesus pray that we be one? John 17:20-21: “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.”

Unity is so important that Christ indicates that it is a condition upon which the world will recognize He is from God. It is central to evangelism and it must be VISIBLE. Its visibility is necessary to convey to the world that Jesus is everything He said he was.

 

[Giver]

petra:

You have completely taken the scripture in Matthew out of context. That is saying that we should expect that there will be tension between believers and non-believers. Sometimes the division will cut through families.

If unity of believers is not important to God, why did Jesus pray that we be one? John 17:20-21: “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.”

Unity is so important that Christ indicates that it is a condition upon which the world will recognize He is from God. It is central to evangelism and it must be VISIBLE. Its visibility is necessary to convey to the world that Jesus is everything He said he was.

(John 13:34-35) “I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples.”

This is how people will know who His disciples are, not by what church they belong to.

 

[petra]

(John 13:34-35) “I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples.”

This is how people will know who His disciples are, not by what church they belong to.

How are loving one another and being visibly unified mutually exclusive? Catholics believe both are true and necessary for evangelizing the world. After all, both are supported in scripture.

Do you not believe John 17:20-21? Do you deny that Jesus desires us to be one, that the world may believe that the Father sent the Son? Surely you are not doing what you have accused Catholics of doing earlier in this thread—selectively dismissing certain scriptures—are you?

 

[Giver]

petra:

How are loving one another and being visibly unified mutually exclusive? Catholics believe both are true and necessary for evangelizing the world. After all, both are supported in scripture.

Do you not believe John 17:20-21? Do you deny that Jesus desires us to be one, that the world may believe that the Father sent the Son? Surely you are not doing what you have accused Catholics of doing earlier in this thread—selectively dismissing certain scriptures—are you?

All I’m trying to say is that Christians are suppose to love one another, and a person does not have to belong the Catholic Church to be Christian. Also because someone belongs to the Catholic Church doesn’t make him or her Christian. There were Catholic Christians in the German army and in the American, British, and French armies during the Second World War. There were Catholic Christians killing each other. Now is that love? That war is an example of what is wrong with the just war teaching.

 

[petra]

Giver:

All I’m trying to say is that Christians are suppose to love one another,

The Catholic Church believes and teaches this.

and a person does not have to belong the Catholic Church to be Christian.

The Catholic Church acknowledges that a Protestant may be a Christian. It depends upon the individual.

Also because someone belongs to the Catholic Church doesn’t make him or her Christian.

Certainly, anyone can fall from grace–Protestants and Catholics.

There were Catholic Christians in the German army and in the American, British, and French armies during the Second World War. There were Catholic Christians killing each other. Now is that love? That war is an example of what is wrong with the just war teaching.

Are you suggesting that the Church does not teach that we should love one another because some individuals may or may not have justly killed during war? Morality of specific conflicts aside, the actions of individuals are not necessarily an indication of what the Church teaches.

But back to the topic at hand…as a defense for your position that we don’t need to join the Catholic Church, you said that unity is unimportant to God. I have shown that unity IS important to God. Jesus prayed that we be one in order for the world to know that the Father sent Him.

 

[pseudoanselm]

Br. Rich SFO:

If a person rejects Christ by intentionally rejecting His Church knowing that the Catholic Church is the true Church and speaks for Christ. They are most likely lost.

But, how does a person intentionally reject what he knows to be the true Church? In other words, people don’t stay away from the Church because they think it’s the true Church. If they thought it was the true Church, they would enter. They stay away b/c they think it’s a false Church. I think there is the possibility of good faith for material heretics.

So, here’s what I think. I think that those who are damned are those who set themselves up as the final arbiters of truth. In other words, such a person may be confronted with an external propostion that is true. But, they may reject it b/c their pride has blinded their reason from recognizing that truth or revelation. For such people, an external source of truth from God or religion is impossible to accept b/c of pride.

 

[Giver]

petra:

The Catholic Church believes and teaches this.

The Catholic Church acknowledges that a Protestant may be a Christian. It depends upon the individual.

Certainly, anyone can fall from grace–Protestants and Catholics.

Are you suggesting that the Church does not teach that we should love one another because some individuals may or may not have justly killed during war? Morality of specific conflicts aside, the actions of individuals are not necessarily an indication of what the Church teaches.

But back to the topic at hand…as a defense for your position that we don’t need to join the Catholic Church, you said that unity is unimportant to God. I have shown that unity IS important to God. Jesus prayed that we be one in order for the world to know that the Father sent Him.

I am saying the Catholic Church is wrong because it does not teach that any war is wrong. That Christians are to love their enemies not kill them. Unity is for all those Christians who hear the Word of God and live it, whether they’re Catholic or not.
Giver

 

[Giver]

pseudoanselm:

But, how does a person intentionally reject what he knows to be the true Church? In other words, people don’t stay away from the Church because they think it’s the true Church. If they thought it was the true Church, they would enter. They stay away b/c they think it’s a false Church. I think there is the possibility of good faith for material heretics.

So, here’s what I think. I think that those who are damned are those who set themselves up as the final arbiters of truth. In other words, such a person may be confronted with an external propostion that is true. But, they may reject it b/c their pride has blinded their reason from recognizing that truth or revelation. For such people, an external source of truth from God or religion is impossible to accept b/c of pride.

I wonder what you would do if Jesus personally told you that a child of His has no right to harm anyone for any reason? Also, what if He told you personally, that Christians are dead to sin? Now remember the written Word tells us this also.
Giver

 

[barsapp]

Giver:

I am saying the Catholic Church is wrong

are you going to explain us the teachings of the Catholic Church?
i can explain you that Luther was a heretic expelled from the Church(the Only Holy Catholic Church founded and wanted by Christ). You know that Luther belonged to the Catholic Church, but he became a destroyer, a division maker, a heretic. Nothing to be proud of.

 

[petra]

pseudoanselm:

But, how does a person intentionally reject what he knows to be the true Church? In other words, people don’t stay away from the Church because they think it’s the true Church. If they thought it was the true Church, they would enter. They stay away b/c they think it’s a false Church. I think there is the possibility of good faith for material heretics.

So, here’s what I think. I think that those who are damned are those who set themselves up as the final arbiters of truth. In other words, such a person may be confronted with an external propostion that is true. But, they may reject it b/c their pride has blinded their reason from recognizing that truth or revelation. For such people, an external source of truth from God or religion is impossible to accept b/c of pride.

Insightful post. I agree 100%.

 

[petra]

Giver:

I am saying the Catholic Church is wrong because it does not teach that any war is wrong. That Christians are to love their enemies not kill them. Unity is for all those Christians who hear the Word of God and live it, whether they’re Catholic or not.
Giver

Should the Church be teaching that the wars that God initiated in the Old Testament were wrong?

 

[Giver]

petra:

Should the Church be teaching that the wars that God initiated in the Old Testament were wrong?

Jesus came to complete the law, what He taught is now the law. He is God, how dare anyone disobey God.
Giver

 

[barsapp]

Giver:

Jesus came to complete the law, what He taught is now the law. He is God, how dare anyone disobey God.
Giver

so He founded the Catholic Church.
so, i repeat my question: are you going to explain us the teachings of the Catholic Church?