Will not vote for Trump, but no pro-life Democrats?

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WillPhillips said:
If you want to reduce abortions in America, democratic platform policies are the most effective.
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Here is the problem: If we could reduce the overall murder rate by legalizing the murder of adults and even paying for the killing of a certain number of innocent adults in recognition that the secular world does not define murder the same way the Church defines it, would we do it? Would that political choice be ethical, if it would reduce the overall number of murder victims?

That is the ethical conundrum we’re talking about. I think we could not do that, because we would be using an immoral means to achieve a good end. There are limits on what we can do to oppose evil.

Having said that, obviously we have to discern among imperfect candidates when we choose to vote in a democracy. There are some moral boundaries that are clear with regards to cooperating with evil, but when it comes to deciding how to vote and whether there is a candidate likely to win we can vote for, there are some judgment calls that have to be made.
 
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Yes good points. I think you hit the nail on the head. One side sees a clear moral boundary (ie murder), and the other does not (prevention of a future person, one of billions+ possible people who are not here).

I think it’s important to be able to understand (and empathize with) the arguments on all sides. So mostly just pointing out the argument.

Absolute purity tests vs harm reduction is an important consideration in democratic voting.
 
The breakdown in America is a logical conclusion to the anti-Church philosophy in its forming. The Great Experiment was a failure, man cannot turn from God and expect his legacy to endure. The fact that there are no reasonable candidates to choose from is a feature, not a bug.
 
I do not expect any political candidate to be a saint. I do not expect that I will ever have a candidate who I agree with on most issues. But there are limits to how far I am willing to bend with regards my vote.
In 2016, I refused to vote for what I considered to be the lesser of two evils. I did not vote for Hillary or Trump.
I expect I will be in the same position in 2020. I cannot vote for Trump due to 2 factors: his behavior is beyond the pale, he has taken scapegoating immigrants to a new and obscene level.
I doubt seriously if I would ever be able to vote for a democratic candidate. Mainly due to the abortion issue. To a lesser extent because I do not trust their economic positions. In 2016, the corruption of the Clinton’s was also a huge factor.

I feel like both major parties are a lost cause at this point. Someday, post-Trump, perhaps the GOP can recover, but it does seem like they have sold their soul.
 
Christians in the ME were decimated under Obama and Bush.

Trump got out of the way of the military and said do you job, at least, the hard core violence against Christians has waned for the most part, at least in Syria and Iraq,

Best vote I ever made.
 
PetraG said:
When someone repeatedly tells me things with no basis in fact, I stop believing what the persons says.
That person’s word carries zero weight with me. I believe nothing he or she says but rely on other sources.
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As we were taught in Aesop’s Fable about the “Boy Who Cried Wolf” or the brilliant poem by Hilaire Belloc “Matilda”.
 
TheLittleLady said:
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PetraG:
When someone repeatedly tells me things with no basis in fact, I stop believing what the persons says.
That person’s word carries zero weight with me. I believe nothing he or she says but rely on other sources.
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As we were taught in Aesop’s Fable about the “Boy Who Cried Wolf” or the brilliant poem by Hilaire Belloc “Matilda”.
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So true. When our President says something I automatically assume it isn’t true unless I can find corroboration some place else. In fact, I usually turn him off when he is on the TV or Radio and just skip to the summaries.
 
I can’t understand how anyone could think any issue could outweigh abortion at the present time. Hundreds of thousands of children are being slaughtered every year under color of law. What problem could you possibly have with Trump that would justify electing somebody who won’t do anything about such an atrocity?
 
The democrat party has gone off the deep end. It’s not even the party from 10 years ago. 10 years ago most major dems although supportive of gay rights were against gay marriage. There were also more pro life candidates. The party of today has fully embraced gay marriage and abortion among many other ideas completely in conflict with the teachings of the Church such as socialism, support of sex changes for children, and a general disdain for Christianity in all forms.

And all of this is coming from someone (me) who voted for Obama in 2008 and Trump in 2016. I will never vote democrat again and only reluctantly support the republicans in certain instances.
 
Yes ,john kasich.hopefully ,he will challenge him…i will not and cannot vote for trump,despite current great economic situation.for me,he’s a protege of putin and is fearful of him.im pretty sure,he would like russia to meddle again in 2020 election.he and his family are running the white house as their extended business empire. I also cannot vote for biden. I like sen warren and that mayor from south bend though.
 
And another thing: Even if you did find a sufficiently grave fault with Trump that you couldn’t vote for him, it doesn’t follow that you should vote for the Democrat or abstain. There are other candidates on the ballot, and were any minor party to obtain 5% of the popular vote, that party would be entitled to matching funds from the Presidential Campaign Fund in the next election, greatly increasing their message. If you find this candidate unacceptable, make your voice heard about the sort of candidates you want.
 
And what would these “grave moral reasons” be that would justify voting for a candidate in favor of keeping abortion legal? It would require that the other candidate supports an atrocity of equal or greater gravity. Yes, we can vote for a pro-abortion candidate in order to fight a greater evil, just as we can go to war for sufficiently grave reasons, but unless you have reason to believe a candidate to support genocide, there is no basis for supporting a pro-abortion candidate based on the current conditions. It would be different if abortion were illegal and unlikely to be legalized, or so rare that other moral issues took priority, but at this time, abortion is unquestionably the gravest moral issue short of actually seeking to exterminate a certain category of persons.
 
Smacks of incrementalism?

NO SUCH THING AS MODERATION on the topic of abortion.
It is either life or death - murder or not murder. It cannot be parsed.
 
Personally, I will not mourn the death of false civility. If civility prevents us from speaking like prophets against great moral evils, then civility is the work of the devil. I will gladly discuss openly and peaceably solutions to problems, and have a healthy debate, but never at the expense of Truth.
 
mythbuster1 said:
And what would these “grave moral reasons” be that would justify voting for a candidate in favor of keeping abortion legal? I
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These are mentioned in the USCCB Document. I’d encourage all American Catholics to study the Document .
 
RealisticCatholic said:
I will not vote for Trump in the 2020 election.

I do not believe he endorses Christian principles in his lifestyle or policies.
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Just a few thoughts.

As far as him endorsing Christian principles, he appears to have made a train wreck of those principles (morally speaking) prior to becoming president. We’ve heard the story. Yes The history ain’t pretty. Yet he also appears to have corrected that bad behavior post election. So to be fair, people change, AND we know of many prior presidents that carried on their bad behavior during their presidency. AND, Congress doesn’t fair any better… agreed?

SO, again to be fair

One HUGE Christian principle he holds, is sanctity of life. As it turns out he is historically, the biggest pro life (anti abortion) president we’ve had in the history of this country, and he is deliberately acting on it by the appointment of pro life judges, and taking away funding for pro abortion causes.
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RealisticCatholic:
But there are also no pro-life Democrats that I know of.

How to proceed?
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It’s NOT just a candidate to think about voting for. What is the party platform stand for? THAT tells the story of what the party will vote for.

2 issues just talked about, abortions and judges.

From the DNC

Securing Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice

Appointing Judges

What’s the theme? pro Abortion.

How you vote is up to you. All I’m doing is giving information.
 
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Moose said:
NO SUCH THING AS MODERATION on the topic of abortion.
It is either life or death - murder or not murder. It cannot be parsed.
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That’s the moral position. But Biden works within a pro-choice party and he has to be strategic. Opposition to late-term abortions, partial birth abortions, and funding are all wins for the pro-life side. The wise person takes what she can get, even if it doesn’t go as far as she’s like.
 
I agree. He is a poster child for greed and also said he doesn’t ask for forgiveness. I wouldn’t vote for him either. But I have a question. How many prolife presidents have we had since Roe v Wade? 5, maybe 6? Have they outlawed abortion? Will the next president. I’m very prolife. I pray for the unborn and I used to think prolife presidents could help but over 1 million people have abortions in the US every year and 1 man, even if he is the president, can not stop it. I’m not saying give up but we shouldn’t focus on one issue. I grew up strictly conservative but I will consider a democrat next time even they are pro choice. If Trump legalized murder and I murder someone the sin is on me and not Trump. I don’t see a president ever being the one to solve this problem.
 
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