Will Orthodox and Catholics Reconcile?

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Andre1000 said:
Maybe the only way to reunite is to make an ecumenical council together.
Orthodox Christians do not believe in the 21st ecumenical council (Vatican 2) because they only believe in the 7 earliest ecumenical councils.

But they both believes that a ecumenical council is true so if they could agree to one than they can unite.
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Actually that’s more complicated than it sounds. Ecumenical councils of course are held by all the bishops of the Church, but a joint one begs the question of who the true bishops are. Even if we held one, it doesn’t change the fact that neither side can or will compromise major beliefs. For us the immaculate conception is a dogma requiring divine belief for all the faithful. The Orthodox do not believe that. If either one gives ground it means the whole of the Church that gives up is not the one true Church. This can be applied to any difference of dogma between us. Things like the filioque are easy, things like original sin muck up the reunion.
 
UniversalistGuy said:
SSTeacher;6930767:
Makarios;6930181:
Does anyone think it’s a lost cause?
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Yes, I think it looks very much like a lost cause. :sad_yes:

Respectfully,
Mick
:sad_bye:Why does it look like a lost cause?
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Two reasons.

Firstly, the divide between Catholic and Orthodox, which was formalized in 1054, involves disagreement about doctrines about which there can be no compromise.

Secondly, even if compromise were actually possible, there is neither the interest nor the will on either side to seek reconciliation.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
In response to the OP, no I don’t believe they will reconcile. Either the Catholic Church must cease to be Catholic as they know it, or the Orthodox Church must cease to be Orthodox as they know it.

John
 
Won’t happen short of divine intervention or His return…Too much flesh in the way…
My personal thoughts put the blame to Rome wanting their way and walked away…
Reason: Sin begets more sin…Schism------> Many little schisms…>.Not that the Orthodox are flesh free, look at all the petty fights, like little kids fighting over toys…
The physical church has division but the mystical. church is bound by the Spirit with all who are in Christ…All in Christ are sealed by the same Holy Spirit…This is apart from the flesh of the physical church…His Bride will rise without spot or wrinkle one day…It sure won’t be our doing…
 
Hiskid1973 said:
…Not that the Orthodox are flesh free, look at all the petty fights, like little kids fighting over toys…
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Would you like to elaborate?

I am Orthodox and I don’t see all these children fighting, I wonder what you must mean.
 
Hesychios said:
Would you like to elaborate?

I am Orthodox and I don’t see all these children fighting, I wonder what you must mean.
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You never saw any of those petty fights that break out in Jerusalem…Sticks/brooms ect…
 
prodromos said:
That is both a physical and a theological impossibility. Christ’s body cannot be divided.

John
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Well, we’re the Body of Christ and we’re divided, so in some sense, the Body already is divided.
 
The theological, as small as they may seem to rank and file members of either church, are foundation blocks that long ago had other stones placed on top of them.

Despite these differences, I cannot doubt that they not very close behind us
 
jam070406 said:
If you don’t mind me asking, which jurisdiction do you belong to?
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I’m Antiochian. My parish has a significant number of converts, some of whom have embraced a triumphalistic attitude toward non Orthodox churches. I find this is often the case with converts to any faith, and I’ve read many wise priests warn converts against this danger.
 
SSTeacher said:
What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
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Love. What concerns me isn’t that they believe their faith is correct, that is appropriate for people in any church, but their triumphalistic attitude toward others. We are all Christians, and should have a genuine desire for the unity that Christ prayed we would have. Love has no room for pride, hatefulness, and condescenion, but rather humility, which is the foundation of all spiritual virtues. I was guilty of that attitude once as a Lutheran, and I pray that I never am again.
 
I think that the first step toward humility is a recognition that both churches have produced great saints after the schism, such as St. Padre Pio and St. Seraphim of Sarov. God’s grace is clearly present in both churches, not just the grace which he shows toward all people, but deifying grace particular to the Holy Spirit in the Church. If this is the case, then we must take the other church seriously, and begin a genuine dialogue of love.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Well, we’re the Body of Christ and we’re divided, so in some sense, the Body already is divided.
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How is that not the branch theory of the Anglicans? We Orthodox do not believe as you do that both are the Body of Christ. Christ’s Body is not “divided” “broken” or “fractured” and will not be made whole by a “union of all the churches.” Christ’s Body is perfect and complete. If you believe that by both of them coming together will be the complete Body of Christ, then you believe that the Gates of Hell have prevailed. We disagree. Vehemently.

We Orthodox believe that we are the complete Body of Christ and no “union” with any church will make it more or less complete. Please make no mistake, we are saddened that Rome is not in the Orthodox Church. However, having said that, we do not believe that we will be more than the Body of Christ we are today. This quote from St. Gregory Nazianzen sums up the Orthodox perspective: "We seek not conquest but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart."

In Christ,
Andrew
 
dcointin said:
I’m Antiochian. My parish has a significant number of converts, some of whom have embraced a triumphalistic attitude toward non Orthodox churches. I find this is often the case with converts to any faith, and I’ve read many wise priests warn converts against this danger.
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This chapter from Fr. Seraphim: His Life and Works, a book about Blessed Seraphim of Platina, describes how we can avoid such things and integrate ourselves into Holy Orthodoxy without contempt for our previous stops on the journey. I have found it to be excellent and very helpful. Perhaps, you can share this with people at your parish?

Fr. Seraphim wrote very passionately about Orthodoxy and defended it against the Heterodox, but he made sure to always do it with love and care for their souls. I love how he takes St. Tikhon of Zadonsk’s saying of “Orthodoxy of the heart” and really pushed his spiritual children to be more concerned about their theosis and sharing Orthodoxy by their witness rather than knowing great intellectual and theological things.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
addictedkoala said:
For us the immaculate conception is a dogma requiring divine belief for all the faithful. The Orthodox do not believe that.
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Actually they do believe it in concept. They just use different words, and they don’t even try to explain all the details. Romans want to explain every little part, see. Orthodox scoff at that, and don’t even try. Underneath this difference in style, both sides believe the same things about Mary.
 
dcointin said:
I think that the first step toward humility is a recognition that both churches have produced great saints after the schism, such as St. Padre Pio and St. Seraphim of Sarov. God’s grace is clearly present in both churches, not just the grace which he shows toward all people, but deifying grace particular to the Holy Spirit in the Church. If this is the case, then we must take the other church seriously, and begin a genuine dialogue of love.
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Wow, Brother, I would give you a hug if I could! I’m Catholic, but have a great respect for St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Innocent of Kuryll and Aleuti Islands, St. Peter the Aleut, St. Herman of Alaska, and St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco! And it warmed my heart, when I first learned about the Holy Icons exuding myrrh, and Icons linked to many miracles in the EOC, such as the Theotokos’s Icons of Kazan and Kursk.

I’m happy to hear about an Orthodox person who respects our Catholic saints (St. Padre Pio).

Pope John Paul II talked about the ecumenism of martyrs - Orthodox and Catholic saints who both shed their blood for Christ.
 
scottm said:
Actually they do believe it in concept. They just use different words, and they don’t even try to explain all the details. Romans want to explain every little part, see. Orthodox scoff at that, and don’t even try. Underneath this difference in style, both sides believe the same things about Mary.
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From OrthodoxWiki: “Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary. Because Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either. Nonetheless, Orthodox tradition does hold that the Theotokos remained free of personal sin”

I honestly love both Churches, but as much as we sometimes like to simplify the differences between our Churches, there are deep riffs in even basic theological issues like original sin. As someone mentioned before, reconciliation cannot occur without one Church ceasing to exist, but neither of us are going to do that to reconcile. The question is, did the Catholic Church move towards or away from truth over the past 1000 years? The problem is we won’t know the answer until we die.
 
Joseph_L_Varga said:
Wow, Brother, I would give you a hug if I could! I’m Catholic, but have a great respect for St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Innocent of Kuryll and Aleuti Islands, St. Peter the Aleut, St. Herman of Alaska, and St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco! And it warmed my heart, when I first learned about the Holy Icons exuding myrrh, and Icons linked to many miracles in the EOC, such as the Theotokos’s Icons of Kazan and Kursk.

I’m happy to hear about an Orthodox person who respects our Catholic saints (St. Padre Pio).

Pope John Paul II talked about the ecumenism of martyrs - Orthodox and Catholic saints who both shed their blood for Christ.
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There is more respect for some Catholic saints among the Orthodox than many people realize. I hear St Francis of Assisi quoted quite often among the Orthodox, including in a homily at my parish. In fact it was the death of Pope John Paul II that brought me to Christ and eventually to the Orthodox Church.

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
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