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MaryT777
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I meant catholic creeds in my creed post. Small C as in universal as well.
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Filii_Dei
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Traditional Roman Catholics and Anglicans do, also on Trinity Sunday as has been the practice in mediaeval times. Eastern Christians (Catholic or Orthodox) do not. We must remember that the Athanasian Creed basically embraces the filioque (“The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.”), so naturally the Eastern Christians would not accept it.
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EvangelCatholic
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I must admit that the recitation of the Athanasian creed can be tediousTraditional Roman Catholics and Anglicans do, also on Trinity Sunday as has been the practice in mediaeval times. Eastern Christians (Catholic or Orthodox) do not. We must remember that the Athanasian Creed basically embraces the filioque (“The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.”), so naturally the Eastern Christians would not accept it.
It is so long and minutely detailed; the kids get bored.So do some adults.I must admit that the recitation of the Athanasian creed can be tedious
Jon
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Filii_Dei
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I must admit that the recitation of the Athanasian creed can be tedious
I reluctantly agree. As detailed a statement of doctrine as it may be, reciting it leaves you rather winded. I suppose that’s why it never really caught on in the other denominations.So do some adults.
Jon
It’s amazing, isn’t it? It’s the longest of the three creeds, but it achieves this feat by simply focusing on the Holy Trinity and the Person of Christ. Only the last four sentences cover other elements of the faith. It stands testament to the kinds of challenges to the doctrine of the Trinity that the Church must have faced so early on in its history.
If we thought this was tiring, it might interest us to know that prior to the reforms of the Divine Office in 1960, the Athanasian Creed was also recited during the Early Morning Prayer of Sundays After Pentecost and Sundays After Epiphany as well. I’ll settle for once a year, thanks.
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EvangelCatholic
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It is easy to chant the Athanasian creed with help from the choir.I reluctantly agree. As detailed a statement of doctrine as it may be, reciting it leaves you rather winded. I suppose that’s why it never really caught on in the other denominations.
It’s amazing, isn’t it? It’s the longest of the three creeds, but it achieves this feat by simply focusing on the Holy Trinity and the Person of Christ. Only the last four sentences cover other elements of the faith. It stands testament to the kinds of challenges to the doctrine of the Trinity that the Church must have faced so early on in its history.
If we thought this was tiring, it might interest us to know that prior to the reforms of the Divine Office in 1960, the Athanasian Creed was also recited during the Early Morning Prayer of Sundays After Pentecost and Sundays After Epiphany as well. I’ll settle for once a year, thanks.
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Filii_Dei
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Thank God He gave us antiphonal forms.
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aidanbradypop
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So if he says that creed on Sunday, why not believe in Apostolic Succession?Yet he confesses that “One Holy catholic and **Apostolic **Church” every week.
Jon
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aidanbradypop
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For all the Lutheran Synods that ordain women, they would have to do away with that. That might make it a bit sticky.
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Filii_Dei
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Well, that’s only if they want to come into communion, but there are several denominations of Lutherans. The synods that are likely to come into communion with the Church tend to be the traditional ones that do not recognise female ordination to begin with. Those will have no issue with discarding female ordinations.
However, if a synod is ordaining women, it speaks volumes of their (lack of) respect for Church and Biblical Tradition, so I wouldn’t expect that they would be itching to join an even more traditional Catholic Church. It wouldn’t stop the other traditional synods though.
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aidanbradypop
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Very true. I do see it as Synod comming into full communion but rather more on a individual level. I could be wrong.Well, that’s only if they want to come into communion. There’s a reason why there are several denominations of Lutherans. Anyway, the synods that are likely to come into communion with the Church tend to be the traditional ones that do not recognise female ordination to begin with. If a synod is ordaining women, it speaks volumes of their (lack of) respect for Church and Biblical Tradition, so I wouldn’t expect that they would be itching to join an even more traditional Catholic Church.
The confessions do support AS.
Jon
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aidanbradypop
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but many Synods do not. Why?
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benjohnson
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Our church came to America because a Calvinist price was forcing a choice on us: become Reformed, or die.
We rebelled against him, and we lost everything in the move, including our Bishops.
This is also why our church frowns on most forms of eccuminiusm - as historically it meant being killed or converting.
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steido01
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In Synods that have moved away from orthodoxy anyway, I suppose it’s simply easier to ignore AS rather than attempt to maintain it.
For us Confessional Lutherans, political events have made it difficult to maintain, as Ben said above. We Confessional Lutherans lost much when the Prussian Union tried to nationalize our churches. As Jon noted, the Confessions do support AS (The three creeds are right there at the beginning, and they’re pretty clear!). This link might help give a bit of background on how today’s Lutherans view AS. Interestingly (fittingly?), we appealed to some very Catholic writings to carry on: cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=a&word=APOSTOLICSUCCESSION
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EvangelCatholic
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Yes, the reaction to the German union of Lutheran and Reformed Christians in the 1800’s did trigger resentment among segments of both denominations. The formation of the Missouri Synod is a result.
But Lutherans in the other European countries were never forced into any kind of union with other Protestants, to my knowledge. And over the past century, many of these Lutherans [especially Scandinavians] formed close relationships/ full communion with those who adhere to historic succession, namely Anglicans and Episcopalians in America; thus the ELCA commitment to ecumenism.
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benjohnson
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Sadly, the examples from the ELCA leadership give us even more cause to be cautious.
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hn160
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The leadership of the ELCA will never give up their ordination of women and practicing homosexuals ( see www.herchurch.org ), and it’s Altar & Fellowship with the Reform Churches ( UCC, PSA, Moravian Church, Methodist Churches and The Episcopal Church ). All these Churches ordain women and homosexuals and they have the same social gospel. This is why my wife and I jumped ship to the LC-MS and never been happier at our confessional church. The LC-MS has problems, but nothing like the ELCA. One thing, in all the ELCA churches that we belonged, they could do liturgy, but their sermons were all screwed up.
I don’t know about many. The PorVoo conf. in Europe has it through the Anglicans, and the ELCA claims it through the Episcopal Church. It is true, however, that some Lutherans either don’t or just don’t see any value in it.
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
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I don’t want to get into an inter-Lutheran feud on a Roman Catholic site and repeat the insults hurled at one another on Lutheran websites. Surfeit is to say, that Lutherans no longer divide themselves in the 21st Century, thank God.
The ECLA is in concert with the See of Uppsula currently presided over Archbishop Ander Wejryd en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_of_Uppsala as well as with other northern & eastern European Lutheran episcopacies. We believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church in recognizing that our intelligence and compassion are enhanced when we follow the example of Christ, our Savior.
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